2nd_city_saint787

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:27 PM) Salary relief doesn't mean good pieces, it means a team is willing to pick him up for just his salary. Vernon Wells was traded for good pieces and his contract was leaps and bounds worse than Alex Rios contract. Toronto saved 80 mill in that deal, Rios only has 25 mill left on his contract.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:21 PM) then why SIGN Hamilton to a deal that will kill the team for 4-5 years when you can just KEEP Rios? In the scenario I'm presenting Rios, who I truly believe is a good trade chip, would be traded for a 3B. Whether it be in a round about way or straight up. So swapping Rios for Hamilton= getting a quality 3B, adding a LH bat to the Sox RH heavy lineup, and an upgrade of 100 OPS points.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:02 PM) "traded for salary relief" is baseball speak for "not getting anybody who will help you in 2013...or maybe ever". They should be able to get a good piece or 2 out of the trade. Rios contract is only on the books for 2 more years so its not a terrible contract to unload. If they don't get someone for 2013 so be it, if they can find a deal using Gavins under market value contract for a 3B then you're still better off for the next 2 years IMO.

Two executives seem to believe Rios can be traded for salary relief.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:40 PM) I already outlined the comparison of what they would be worth on the open market. If you can tell me which teams out there would find those guys valued enough to take on their entire contract, plus send either high end prospects, or young cost controlled starters, back to the Sox for them, I'd lbuy into this being a viable plan. But when a plan needs three way deals to make it work, it doesn't feel very realistic to me. Any team in on Josh Hamilton would be in on Rios more than likely. Everyone seems to believe Gavin will be traded so he has to have some value, and I'm sure there are teams out there that need a LH set up guy. All they need is a 3B out of those 3 guys, i dont care is they get little to nothing else. For the next 2 years having a middle of a lineup that includes Hamilton, PK, and Dunn, makes the White sox title contenders

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) Those deals are very difficult to put together, let alone multiple times in the same off-season. I still don't know that you would be getting very much for these guys. It's 3 guys, everyone already expects Gavin to be traded, everyone already wants Matt traded, and I wouldn't be surprised if some team out there would take Alex.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:17 PM) or just not sign hamilton. Ya it won't happen but its just fun offseason chatter for me, a supporter of Ham-Bone. It's a pretty good idea to me though.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:08 PM) Teams may be willing to take on the full contract, but you're not getting a young, starter in those deals. It just isn't going to happen as much as we may want it too. Thats where the 3 way deal Hahn has talked about comes in. Trade Rios to a team willing to take on his contract, get some good prospects and flip them to a 3rd team with 1 or 2 more of our guys for a young cheap 3B.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:56 PM) Exactly. When he slipped up in 2009 and was photographed shirtless and drunk in a bar with a bunch of women who were'r his wife, asking where he could get cocaine, he was quoted the next day he would never drink again because of what it led to. He has had drinks since. He is a great player but not a guy you want to throw all that money at. The other thing is the guy misses a lot of games. He misses only 14 this year, like that is something spectacular.Moving forward, you would have to figure he would miss 30-40 games a year the next 5 years, at the very least based on his history and his getting older. Was the bold part confirmed? I don't know how you get that from a picture.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) With the salaries that all four of these guys have, I don't think it is realistic to expect to get a starting 3B AND a starting C for players that are either at, or above the contracts that they would get as free agents, if they were out on the market today. -Dunn has 2 years $30 million left, Ortiz just got 2/26 on the open market, so Dunn is pretty well maxed out. Who out there would give a starting player, PLUS wanting to pay that contract? -Thornton at $5.5 million this year is a lot of money. He does have a $6 million option for next year, with a $1 million buyout, so realistically he is a 1 year $6.5 million player this year. Again, at max dollars or above. No one is going to give a starting 3B or C for Matt Thornton. -Floyd at $9.5 million for one year might actually bring you something back. His numbers aren't overly impressive, but having a workhorse in the middle of the rotation is worth something now a days. Maybe he is in the area of a 10-12 million pitcher on the open market. But is he good enough to get you a ready made 3B or C starter? Eh, I doubt it. We are probably talking decent (Say second level for the top player received, along with a couple of C rated guys) prospects. Rios is coming off of a career best year, previously followed by one of the worst seasons in his career. He has $25 million due over the next two years, plus a team option for $13.5m in 2015, or a million buyout. He has a reputation as a bad attitude and seems to be pretty fragile. Is he a guy you would trade a young/cheap starter for, in view of his contract and history? I'm not seeing it. I am not seeing the same optimism that you are. How are the Sox planning on getting a 3B anyway? There's a trade out there and I doubt they add a high salary guy. I also said 3B and/or C. If they can't get a C out of the deal so be it, Tyler Flowers your table is ready. This convos all for fun though. IMO its not wildly unrealistic but it won't happen

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:43 PM) Again, you're not getting top young MLB talent for those guys. You could get some younger prospects, or maybe a decent cheap bullpen piece, but those guys with their salaries just aren't worth that much (hence why fans want to trade them). Unless the Sox dish out tons of cash with those guys, they're going to get limited returns. And if they do that then suddenly that cash you saved isn't nearly as much as you thought. Isn't there a ton of teams with a lot of spending money this year? Something about TV deals? The FA market is also really shallow so teams are going to be exploring trades. I saw where Seattle is in on Hamilton, my post suggested trading them Alex in return for Seager. If you add Josh's LH bat I dont think youre limited to grabbing a LH bat a 3B(Though they were never really limited to on in the first place, I just would have preferred one) so that opens the door for any 3B out there.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:27 PM) Is the team really better at that point? If you can get a good young 3B and or a C in the trades? Yes. The teams RH heavy, trading in Rios for Hamilton changes that. Hamilton also had an OPS 100 points higher than Rios, so theres that.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) That's the other rub. The Sox would have to trade big named players to make payroll room for Hamilton. If they were to go after Josh, they would probably have to get rid of at least one of Konerko and Dunn. You must have missed my 2am post about trading Rios, Floyd, and Thorntons 27 mill for cheap young talent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:07 PM) Except if he relapses into alcohol, it makes it easier for him to relapse into drugs. It does, but it hasn't happened. He's a changed, "God fearing" man. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:07 PM) Even if you remove the monetary considerations, what happens when you don't have your starting clean up hitter for at least 50 games? In Hamilton's case, it could be more because of his suspension history. Unless they changed things since his book was written, if he fails a test he's gone from baseball period. They could have changed it though since he's been clean for so long but I doubt it. It's a chance worth taking for one of the best hitters in baseball if you ask me. He's still gonna have monster years the next 2 years with PK and Dunn still on the team.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:58 PM) Generally recovering alcoholics aren't supposed to be drinking at all. Alcohol wasn't his problem though. Yes when we was an addict he drank but the drinking lead to hardcore drugs. If its no longer leading to drugs and he can handle being a normal human being that has a drink once in awhile than more power to him!

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) Knowing his whole story is part of the due diligence with a guy like Hamilton. If you know his story you know he has a hard-core drug history so there is an expectation that his body should breakdown quicker than most. He is a guy that hurts himself in the name of competition. He is turning 32 next year meaning he is in the stage of his career where natural decline is going to start to happen anyway. His value diminishes if he moves from CF to a corner OF position. He literally could relapse at any time, and moving into a new market, with totally new (or maybe even absent) control systems could lead to a failure of his ability to stay away from drugs and/or alcohol. He could also fall into relapse based on the pressures of a new mega-contract in a new location. Those things aren't about respect, or knowing the guy. Its about the reality of his history and his situation... All things that matter to which ever team shells out a ton of money for him. Knowing his story I know he's a changed man and he spent a year building his body back up to play at the level he's playing at. He has the 3rd highest OPS in the MLB over the last 3 years, him moving to a corner OF spot doesn't diminish his value. The Sox have about a 2 year window where they can be title contenders, you add Hamilton and balance out the lineup those chances increase.

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:42 PM) I was pretty sure a single failed drug test voids his contracts per MLB's agreement letting him back into baseball. Yup, and he takes them more often than a regular player. Back around when his book was made (a few years back into his playing career) he was still getting them weekly or bi weekly. That tells me he's been clean for 6 years. I also don't consider his yearly bender where he goes out and drinks a relapse or that big a deal if it doesn't lead to hardcore drug use. Are MLB players not supposed to drink during the year?

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:15 AM) If Marshall goes down youre f***ed anyway. Marshall, Jeffrey, Bennett, a NEW capable receiving TE and Hester to spread the defense from time to time would be very potent behind a good offensive line. This. QUOTE (RZZZA @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:22 AM) I read what you said but the fact remains that the offense has been regressing on a weekly basis since Alshon went down. Thats inexcusable, he's just a damn rookie. Hester, Davis, Bennett aren't cutting it. Don't underestimate the value of Alshon Jeffery, even if he is a rookie he's a 1st round talent and a threat on the outside. If they lineup Jeffery opposite of Marshall and move Bennett to the slot where he's better off the defense can't gang up on BM. In DrunkBombers situation where they upgrade at TE (Really wish they woulda took a shot at Dewayne Allen in the draft) and upgrade the line you're looking at a juggernaut.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 11, 2012 -> 07:23 PM) Honestly any conversation with the White Sox and Hamilton is a waste of breath. The Sox are up against their payroll as is, and they aren't about to unload enough payroll guys to bring in a guy like Hamilton. Even if the Sox had the money, the guy is the wrong side of 30, expensive, and an ex-hardcore drug user. There is nothing about Josh Hamilton that makes him a remotely realistic topic of conversation for Sox fans. It's just something to think about in the offseason, won't happen but its fun to speculate. I really like Josh. I don't read many books but I've read his multiple times and it's made me respect the guy. You guys obviously don't respect him and thats ok, you don't know his story. I'm not a salary guy so I'm probably gonna be wrong in saying.. If they trade Rios, Thornton, and Floyds combined 27 million dollars you save the 25 mill Josh wants. Trading those guys you should be able to get a young cost effective 3B and possibly a young RH starter, LH bullpen arm, or C as well. If not you still have the money they were planning on using on a 3B to fill a hole in SP (like a BMac) and a LH bullpen guy if there's not already a replacement in house. You couple all that with with the money saved on letting AJ and Myers walk and in my salary ignorant head that sounds like its still around the same salary as last year. I know I'm not accounting for existing players making a mill or more this year compared to last year but that shouldn't be too much. Let's say, just for conversation, they pull off a trade with Seattle sending them Rios and Quintana to Seattle for Seagar and Jaso. Then they trade Matt and Gavin for some prospects. Battle it out with.. 1. De Aza 2. Ramirez 3. Hamilton 4. Konerko 5. Dunn 6. Viecedo 7. Seager 8. Beckham 9. Jaso 1. Sale 2. Peavy 3. Danks 4. BMac 5. Santiago Thats a damn good team right there. But I think its just a time killer to talk about and in the slow days of the threads I enjot talking about it.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 11, 2012 -> 04:11 PM) If we put this discussion about Hamilton in the proper perspective, the larger point continues to be that the Sox desperately need a potent, high OBP, left handed bat. Not only is the line up weighted too heavily toward right handed hitters, but there isn't a single left handed threat that would force an opposing manager to go the pen for a left hander. Does anyone seriously believe that an opposing manager is going to remove a right handed pitcher, just to face Adam Dunn, much less de Aza? There are far more right handed starters and relievers, than there are southpaws, and the Sox don't have a threat to exploit it. It's not only important in any given game, but in a typical 3 game series, it is advantageous to "burn" through the opposing team's pen, early in the series. So the question is; "Whom do the Sox go after"? Is it Chase Headley, Josh Hamilton, or someone else? You can forget about Hahn trying to acquire a right handed hitter. I'm confident that is not going to happen. If he gets anyone, it will be a solid left handed hitter. Trading Viciedo, Floyd, Thornton and even Beckham would all be worth the price, if it gets this team the bat it needs. Well said except for the Adam Dunn part, he's still a threat against RHP.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Nov 11, 2012 -> 12:20 PM) A. It's a JOKE. And B. I already said why he's not worth it. Yesterday just wasn't my day (Personal reasons) and I was truly bothered by the drug jokes. I couldn't get on board with them because I really pull for the guy. He gets a bad rap for his past which is to be expected I reckon. I viewed them as childish to be honest, but once again I wasnt in the mood yesterday, today I get them. har har har, funny stuff. BTW Hamilton only missed 14 games last year.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 10, 2012 -> 11:54 PM) Is there a way to structure a contract that would nullify it, if a player were found to have serious substance abuse problems? I understand that it would be difficult to do, even if it were approved by the Player's Union. Nevertheless, it does seem fair and reasonable. After all, it's one thing for a player to be injured, and yet quite another for him to become an addict, or relapse into a state of active drug, or alcohol addiction. Perhaps he could be suspended without pay, until he demonstrated that he was no longer using the particular drugs specified in the contract. Again it's complicated, but it just doesn't make sense to not have some recourse for a team under such conditions. Only in sports!!!!! In the "real" world, a guy would just be fired, with no compensation. It's ludicrous for a team be responsible to pay a player $25 or $30 million per year, under such circumstances? Where is the accountability? There's really no clause needed IMO. Now I'm not sure if he still gets the same treatment but, to go off what I know from reading his book, he gets/used to get drug tested every 1 or 2 weeks and if he fails one he's a goner. Without pay. He's not getting no signing bonus that he can blow this time around.

After looking more into it, Padre fans seem to think they'll play Gyorko at 2B and move Forsythe to SS. But anything can happen, if they get a good enough deal I think they'd trade him. If push comes to shove, Everth Cabrera may not be a bad option at 2B while moving Gordo to 3B. Once again thats push come to shove.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Nov 10, 2012 -> 09:40 PM) He's relapsed at least 2x in the last couple years and probably more than that. No thanks Were drugs involved? When I think about a former addict and the word relapse I think they went back to the drugs. If he was able to just drink and not take any drugs then I dont see the issue. If he can be a normal human being and drink and it doesn't effect him at the plate, which it hasn't, then whats the problem?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 10, 2012 -> 09:30 PM) When was this book written, because he was caught out on a bender just last year. Those problems will haunt him the rest of his life. Heroin is bad stuff I dont have the book on me but it was the year after he was in the HR derby at Yankee Stadium. I actually gave it to my friend who has been dealing with a drug problem. I recall something about that but dont remember the details, was he just drinking??