Pants Rowland

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 11:56 PM) IMO the rally crede game was the best just because of when it came. I was at that game and actually caught his first home run ball. The second was just out of reach to my right (I think I injured some people diving for it) but basically in the same spot 20 rows back in left field. Both shots were bombs. Uribe's nab of the grounder in the hole and spectacular throw also a huge season highlight from that game. Definitely one of my top memories/games since I started following the Sox 25 years ago.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 31, 2006 -> 09:54 AM) there are other factors which are very important to many fans, which have been in the Cubs' favor in the last few decades. And those are changing too. The neighborhood? IIT just bought a bunch of land to the south of 35th to build a new commercial area, for bars, restaurants, condos, etc. Metra is putting a stop at 35th right there as well. Areas to the north of the park (Armour Park) are being bought up, torn down and rebuilt. The neighborhood is changing. the real war is on the kids and the Sox appear to be winning that one. Better promotions, better advertising, a more kid-friendly park, etc. I couldn't agree more with those two huge points. I would say the whole Cubs movement has been 20-25 years in the making. One of the overriding themes you hear from Cubs fans is the fact that they would come home to the Cubs on WGN. The second thing (which developed a bit later) was the neighborhoods. The Cubs appealed to any kid who liked baseball because they were so accessible on TV. Meanwhile the Sox played most of their games at night and usually on pay TV (thank you Eddie Einhorn). That variable has been neutralized quite a bit with ComCast, the WB, and the dominance of cable TV. Also, as you pointed out, the Sox are really starting to reach Chicagoland youth through various marketing efforts. The WS title will also be huge in molding these kids into Sox fans. On the neighborhood front, Wrigleyville was pretty rotten in the early 80s. It was ruled by the Latin Kings and Cubs attendence wasn't even close to 1.5 million. The Cubs used to close the upper deck sometimes because no one sat up there. The rejuvination of Wrigleyville started in the mid-80s while the Sox neighborhood languished in crime and inconvenience for many more years. As you also noted, a broad scale rejuvination (and overall transformation) is also taking place on the south side. The playoffs and WS made a lot of people wake up to this reality and stop believing the myth of the dangers of the south side of Chicago. I think the Sox are somewhere around year 5 of the 20 years it will take to even the playing field back to north side versus south side, like it used to be. Winning the WS may have accelerated the process with the youth movement but the neighborhood strides will form a foundation strong enough to sustain losing periods as well. I think the Sox, residents and real estate moguls are all doing their part right now. The telling moment will be when the White Sox start selling off parts of their vast parking lots for development. It could happen a lot sooner than many (such as Rick Morrissey) think. I think 10-15 years from now the landscape will have changed both mentally and geographically.

QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 04:56 PM) Do you even know who placed the Ivy at Wrigley to begin with? None other than Sox savior Bill Veeck when he was a wee lad.

I think it is Borchard as well. He is out of options and if he doesn't pan out by June, I am sure Ricky Henderson will be ready.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 11:05 AM) Well after seeing Ozzie comments about Munoz, I would kiss him good-bye. I have got to imagine that it is between the two new guys, or they wouldn't have brought them in the first place if they though an inhouse guy could handle it. I am not so sure about that. It seems that all of Ozzie's pointed comments are done with more of a purpose than we realize (such as comments about Anderson's defense a couple months ago). I saw what he said about Munoz' heart and I interpreted it as Munoz being the guy Guillen wants to step up and win the job outright. The time to worry about a player is when Guillen starts to rave about him. That is usually followed up with a trade out of town.

QUOTE(kevin57 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) Thanks for these reminders of the bad side of FT. I've been struck by the extremes on Frank Thomas. On the one hand, there were those (in the media many, among die-hards few) who despised Frank. On the other hand, there are many die-hards for whom criticizing Frank Thomas is blasphemy. The truth about this man lies somewhere in-between. I hope I did not come across as a Frank hater. I sometimes think maybe I just read about him in the Tribune too much. I think you are right that Frank is somewhere between hero and pariah but at this point in his career, Frank just seems out of line to think he is entitled to anything more than he has already received from the White Sox. I also agree with Juggernaut that this could be the story that unifies the White Sox into thinking they have something to prove all over again. Let's just hope Thome, Anderson, Vazquez and the back end of the bullpen step up to the level we desire.

The eight guys in our group picked Wednesday. With two little kids, weeknights after work were best for me so I will help fill the coffers Tues-Thurs primarily. I made a good pact with another member of the group that if we got first pick we would take opening day and share the game. Worked out great, he got first pick, I got second. So we will be going to both opening day and the first Sox-Cards game together. Trying to work out a deal to go to a Houston game with him as well but he is driving a harder bargain on that one. The only thing I have to offer is closing day against the M's and Elvis night on 8/11 against the Tigers.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 11:51 AM) "This is a problem. Too many people want to compare us to the Cubs. Far too many White Sox fans do this too. How is it "Cubbie"? In fact, the Cubs have green seats. Isn't putting in green seats, far more "Cubbie." There you go making sense again. I like the green seats and I also do my share of complaining about things having to do with the Sox, but sometimes I just can't find the logic in people's complaints. All right. To each his own. However, I do shake my head when I hear talk of what is so "Cubbie". I thought baseball was about summer, peanuts, the smell of the grass, hot dogs, and a lazy tune playing on the organ. Over the past 20 years, the Cubs have convinced the world that they invented the baseball experience. I even heard some 20-something at work who went to her first Sox game act surprised that they played the "Cubs song" at a Sox game. The name of the song, you ask? Take Me Out to the Ballgame.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 01:37 PM) I should have told you that in December. You're an icon Frank. How do you tell this stuff to an icon? Honestly, Frank you're an intimidating presence. This ranks as one of the toughest things I've ever had to do. Good Luck with Oakland. I know I & the rest of the White Sox fans will be rooting for you. You might not believe it but we want you to reach 500 HR's too. We just hope you take the day off when we play you. That goes double at the Cell. You're a HR hitting monster there. Play your best against the ALC. Beat the rest of the teams into submission. Do it for the A's fans. Do it for the White Sox fans. Do it for yourself. No organization is more proud of a player than we are of you Frank. That goes many times over for the White Sox fans. Don't be surprised if they give you a standing O at the Cell. That's a rare thing for a player who now represents the team most likely to unseat us for the AL pennant. That was beautiful. Please excuse me while I go throw up. Frank may be an icon on the baseball field (or at least at the plate), but he is a spoiled prima donna everywhere else. I do not mean to sound disrespectful of his career, but Frank has done his fair share over the years to cause problems for the WS. He used to show up late for spring training so he could sell shoes in Japan. He staged contract holdouts because he was embarrased about the mega millions he was making. He consistently said dumb and insenstive things in public. He was also as big a hawk as Reinsdorf prior to the strike in 1994. He did not stay in good physical condition and started breaking down after he hit his thirties. He gets paid tens of millions for two bad seasons but wants more money after he has a season worthy of the money. He refused to do drills that his teammates had to do in spring training. The guy does not run the bases well (I still remember his "I am that big train" Reebok commercial despite the fact he never had the desire to run over a catcher to win a ball game). He barely knows what to do with a glove and he could never turn a 3-6-3 DP to save his life. And as far as Thomas saving the White Sox with his valient return to the line-up, give me a break. I agree Jurassic was brutal swinging at balls at his ankles. I also know the numbers show the Sox had the best winning percentage in the regular season when Thomas was in the line-up. However, things have a way of evening out and I will not go so far as saying the Sox were winning because of Frank. They did pretty well to start the season without him. The string of consecutive games with a lead was done without Thomas hitting 1st inning homers. And if my memory serves me right, the White Sox went 16-1 to end the season...without Frank Thomas! I do not mean to bash the guy, but before this past week, I was disappointed Thomas would not be on the south side this year. I have concerns about Thome being healthy or as productive as Thomas just as much as I have concerns about Thomas being healthy and in the right state of mind. However, all his mouthing off this week once again revealed the true Frank Thomas, a surly prima donna shooting for 50-some more home runs to validate his entry into the HOF. I acknowledge his accomplishments and agree that his career is nothing short of exceptional, but here in 2006 I must say good riddance to Frank and his selfish ways.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 10:19 PM) Nope. No sarcasm. I liked the way the blue seats looked. I knew they had to be replaced, but to me, the blue seats were nicer than the green ones. I know every man is entitled to his own opinion but... how can you even suggest that those crapy blue seats are better than Green ones in a basball park? We were duped when this park first opened and they acted like they kept any character from the old park. The thing I missed the most were the green seats and yellow railing the old Golden Box seating areas. It was long overdue that they go back to their baseball roots and match the seats to the grass. Sorry.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 11:51 PM) These are Thomas's seasons after he's been hurt from a major injury the season before hand; 2002 - .252/.361/.472 2005 - .219/.315/.590 I don't know if Thomas would be able to hit higher then .250 if he stayed here, and that's JMHO. Forgive me for going in a little bit different directon on this discussion, but one intangible that we are starting to forget is Thomas is a selfish individual who brought almost all of this on himself. Sure he played the good soldier this year with all the clapping and smiling. I myself was almost hoodwinked. However, the true Frank Thomas stood up when he rushed himself back from injury, spent minimal time in the minors and announced himself ready to play even though his timing was clearly off in AAA. This forced the White Sox to make a roster move in order to accomodate Thomas, which was required by certain rules relating to tenured players. Thomas came back and could not run the bases. His ridiculous home run output had us all cheering but the rest of the time he was striking out, hitting into putrid double plays, or clogging up the basepaths when he draw an occassional walk or hit a single off the wall. To top it all off, he and Everett started whining about playing time since they had to share DH duties. He now tries to portray it that he rushed himself to come back to contribute to a winning team. To me it was fairly obvious he rushed back to make his run at 500 HR and hopefull get another big contract. Ultimately his plan backfired as even that slow jog around the bases was too much for his ankle to handle. So now he departs for the A's and we are supposed to think the WS mistreated him. I think he should be in the HOF, but I also think he has been fairly disappointing since 1997 with the 2000 season being the lone bright spot. I'm sorry, but Thanks for the memories Frank. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

QUOTE(Pauly8509CWS @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 04:44 PM) Agreed, I can't deal with people who try and push their "Extensive baseball knowledge" on to me. I couldn't agree more. I have ben a fan my whole life and was so thrilled to see my White Stockings finally break the curse of Shoeless Joe Jackson last year. You know Shoeless Joe got that name because he had to play without shoes after he got caught cheating in the world series back in 1919. Oh, the years of suffering since 1919. It was worse than influenza and polio combined. Hey, is that Colonel Angus in your Avitar? Nice touch.

QUOTE(SoxPhan7 @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 02:47 PM) maybe its just me, but i dont have a huge problem with bandwagoners. I mean everyone likes sold out stadiums and a large fan base so this increase in fans has to come from somewhere. Hopefully these bandwagoners have kids who then become true Sox fans. i think all that is important is that people knew you were a true fan before the sox won it all. I agree. It is not so much that I love to wait for beer and bladder relief at a packed ballpark, but I welcome the extra revenue to pay the players. However, I will draw the line at opponent's home runs being thrown back on the field of play. If we can keep that from catching on, I will refrain from mocking the bandwagon.

PK's deferral of the C was the mark of a true and natural captain. The C is unnecessary. The fact that his teammates look to him and Buehrle as the leaders of the team make any extra stitching a triviality.

QUOTE(Hawkfan @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 09:57 PM) garland will do awesome again if he just doesn't walk people.. garland is a great groundball pitcher and if you are going to be that you need to not walk people... if he keeps the walks down he could be an ace...thats right.. i said ace Funny you say that. A caller on ESPN1000's Baseball 365 asked who Levine and Dalgen think has the best chance at the HOF from the Sox' staff. Levine said Garland. This was based on years in front of him as well as the career he has had thus far. I think a lot of people don't realize how young Garland is and how long it takes a player to mature in the majors. He was so raw (and tainted) when the WS got him for Karchner but people thought he should be a superstar right away just because of his potential. If he were on the north side, we would be hearing some statistic about the record number of consecutive 10 win seasons before the age of 25 he had compared to other pitchers in MLB history. I don't necessarily think he is a HOF prospect, but he has always been a horse and is really starting to make the opposition look weak on a consistent basis.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 09:15 PM) If you look at Garland's 2002 to 2004 numbers and compare them to his 2005 numbers, the only thing that really changed was the number of walks he gave up. If he goes back to walking 75 to 80 batters in 2006 instead of walking only 47 like last season, he won't be as effective. I'll tell you another big change between his earlier career and the year and half had has had since the second half of 2004. Ozzie Guillen replaced Jerry Manuel and let JG learn how to pitch. Manuel used to pull JG after the 5th or 6th if a runner got to second base. JG was always looking over his shoulder in the Manuel days and had no confidence in his ability to get out of tricky situations. Manuel was a brutal manager who could not handle young pitchers. Guillen left him out there to get out of trouble in 2004 and by the second half of that year he started performing on a consistent level. Garland would be pitching in Baltimore or Tampa Bay right now if Manuel had stayed on as manager of the WS. He was a terrible developer of young talent.

Just read all eleven pages of this ping pong match. One thing I did not see was mention of KW's repeated reference to a sustained run over the next 3 years or so. I think KW would trade just about anyone if the price and time was right but only if it helped win another title this year. At this point in the season, the only reason to trade JC is the fear he might revert to old form. I agree that his past performance is inconsistent at best, no matter how high the highs. With that said, I doubt JC is going anywhere for anything but big league talent. I know nothing about this NY prospect but I doubt he has seen a major league pitch. I would be really disappointed if KW traded a hot commodity coming off a Carlos Beltran-like postseason (from a pitching standpoint) for anything but solid bullpen help and possibly a more proven #2 hitter with some decent speed (I would even throw Brian Anderson in a trade if we could get a package deal on those needs). That would create a more consistent and balanced offensive attack than last year's team exhibited and would help strengthen a thinned out bullpen, no matter what anyone thought of Marte and Vizcaino. That is the only way the Sox will maintain a title run of three years or so. The fact is, if JC performs this year, the Sox will have another good shot at the title. If the Sox make another strong postseason run, that puts more fans in the seats, increases merchandise sales on a national level and a puts a lot more money in the Sox coffers. The Angels have shown that a big market like LA (or Chicago) can strongly support two teams. If the Sox continue to perform, they will reach that upper echelon of revenue generators in MLB. That will definitely result in enough cash to resign JC or some other starter of equal or higher caliber. One last thing to remember is Contreras, Buehrle and Garland are the only three WS starters not pitching in this world baseball classic circus. Even if Contreras is average in his starts, they need those guys to eat innings and keep the bullpen fresh while Vazquez and Garcia build up their arm strength for the long haul.

Thanks. Gregor did a nice job and I think Kenny did a great job in honoring last year's team with a refusal to compare the champions with the 2006 Sox.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 24, 2006 -> 10:56 PM) From what I have heard/seen, Anderson looks to have a few steps on Rowand, and maybe it was just me, but was Rowand that good of a baserunner to begin with? I was more focused on A-Row's great reads in center than his baserunning. Anderson may make us forget all the gappers that died in Rowand's mitt, but I will reserve judgement until I actually see him go after it for a few months. With or without the trophy, Aaron was a gold glover last year.

QUOTE(BlackBetsy @ Jan 24, 2006 -> 10:35 PM) Kind of like Albert Belle + Frank Thomas = World Series? The real equation is Mark Buehrle + Freddy Garcia + Jose Contreras + Jon Garland + Javier Vazquez = World Series. We learned that math this year. My sentiments exactly. Thome + Konerko could also = record number of double plays for the WS offense. The Sox won 3 division titles on paper before they scrapped the long ball strategy because they couldn't win any tight ball games. I would say my two biggest concerns for the WS this year is lack of bullpen depth and loss of speed. Guillen wanted to get faster and more defense in the offseason. I'd say they got slower and lost some leather. I know they effectively traded Everett for Thome which is not a huge dropoff in speed, but they also gave up a lot of defense and scrappy baserunning with the loss of Rowand. I have confidence in Guillen, but I am concerned that KW fell back into his back habits of obsessing over stars past their prime.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 24, 2006 -> 03:43 PM) Yanks have to be favorites. Even they have suspect pitching. Their offense/defense is over the top and should lead them to the playoffs, but I question the depth of their staff and bullpen. Toronto needs to jell as a team before anyone is going to jump on that wagon, but you have to think they will give that division some fits.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Jan 24, 2006 -> 03:37 PM) Even with these moves, they are still one of the favorites to win their division. This just amazes me. How can anyone look at the Red Sox and make them the favorite? They have two majorly potent bats, but a very suspect pitching staff. They are a resilient team but their level of talent is on a steep decline.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 24, 2006 -> 03:18 PM) Sure it is, cause it has Manny and Ortiz two of the 5 best run producers in the game (with Manny being the best of all time, imo). Plus Lowell, Trot Nixon and Coco Crisp. They got a solid lineup. If Lowell pans out it gets better. Now all the BoSox need is a healthy quality starting pitching staff and they will win another championship.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Jan 23, 2006 -> 09:17 AM) The biggest lie I can think of is that Sox fans would never support the Cubs. Eventually, the Cubs would be selling out every game like Boston. Die Hard Sox fans would never cross over, but many more would. IMHO, the Cubs would have had a WS winner by now with the increased payroll am extra million fans would have brought in. While I agree there would be plenty of Sox fans that eventually would have become Cubs fans, I think your take on the Cubs winning the world series is far off base. The Cubs basically sell out their park now and have been doing so for some time. They have even drawn 3 million fans to that little ballpark of theirs and that has not produced a world series winner. There are plenty of teams without big budgets that have won championships over the past 25 years. This includes smaller budget teams such as the Blue Jays, Braves, Tigers, Royals, Twins, Angels, Marlins, Diamondbacks and Athletics. It is about more than just attendance. That helps, but if you are inept at developing talent and a winning mentality at both the player and coaching ranks, you are never going to win anything. The fact is the Cubs do not sell baseball and they haven't sold it since before WWII. The Cubs sell atmosphere, revisionist history and a bar scene both inside and outside the park. If the Cubs lose but ________ (insert Banks, Kingman, Ryno, Dawson, Sammy, etc. here) hits a home run and everyone gets drunk and laid, then it was a good day. This will not change no matter how far south the White Sox are located.

I love how tough talk like this from the WS gets everyone starts speculating about its meaning. My guess is the Sox are sending another message. The time you have to worry about a guy getting traded is when Guillen starts praising him in the press. As soon as the big compliments start coming from Ozzie, that guy better watch his back. It sounds like the negotiations with Contreras are still going to me, no matter how Hahn is spinning it in the press.