Dick Allen

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Nov 11, 2013 -> 12:30 PM) Refresh my memory as to whether or not we have a totally clear picture of things... ...Thome was still good, wanted to be here, would've been here cheap... ..but Guillen preferred Kotsay and a rotating DH, so the Sox front office went along with it? Is it basically understood that this was Guillen's call? Do we infer that Kenny allowed Ozzie this rope in order to mount a case against his judgment, or is that just something juicy enough for message boards and little else? Was the Sox front office fully on board with letting Thome join Minnesota? Of course he had been traded the year prior, but it was more of a chasing-the-ring thing, as opposed to bad vibes. To be fair to Ozzie, Kotsay had been good with the White Sox..but a legit look at his career arc should've made it clear he'd return to suckage...whereas Ozzie often is guided by passion and principle instead of substance. It was actually on the show the Sox did on MLB Network. Thome wanted to come back and would have played for $1 million. Ozzie wanted more flexibility with the DH position. JR said Ozzie should get the type of team he wanted to manage. Thome went to the Twins, had a great year. The Sox power was short, needed a left handed bat, and wound up with Dunn in 2011.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 11, 2013 -> 12:10 PM) If the money's under $5 million for one year, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. However, it just kicks the catching decision one year down the line, but it also gets in the way of developing Flowers/Phegley (if that is actually in the cards at this point). Maybe they could just trade him at the deadline and play Flowers/Phegley in the second half, but how does that help solve anything for 2015? As it is, we're already kicking permanent solutions at 3B, SS, 2B and CF down the line (into 2015). There's a decent possibility Viciedo isn't part of the future as well. They're going to have to decide about Semien (75%)/Sanchez (25%)/Micah Johnson (50/50), too, if any of those guys are meant to be everyday players at the big league level. We're also going to need a new DH to replace Dunn. Assuming Abreu and A. Garcia are solid next year, we still might end up replacing 7 positions going into the following season...so, unless there's a catcher in our system ready to explode on the scene, we're going to have to trade from our pitching depth to solve these issues or pay top dollar on the FA market. Assumming the catcher everyone or at least a majority of people would really be happy with in 2015 or 2016 is available at a reasonable price this offseason could also be a reach. Someone has to catch. If AJ is the best choice, I don't see him "taking ABs" away from Flowers or Phegley is wrong, because obviously if getting a catcher is a top priority, those are not guys the team is going to be building with anyway. If you aren't going to go after McCann, is it wise to lock yourself into Salty? This guy was benched during the World Series. If that is a guy you want to give $10 million a year for multiple years? Obviously the White Sox want to acquire guys that will perform and be with the team for years, but the odds are stacked against that being possible. I don't see AJ coming back, but those so opposed, I don't see the point. Not everyone on the 2016 White Sox will be acquired this winter.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 11, 2013 -> 09:31 AM) You and Balta think the Sox will contend next year. I would rather take Uggla + the prospects the Braves give for taking the contract because they aren't going to contend no matter who plays second. The Braves aren't giving away prospects to take Dan Uggla. That was a Dan Bernstein pipedream. It hasn't happened in MLB history. He confused MLB with the NBA. Go ahead and keep saying the Sox would get a legit prospect for taking Uggla. Everyone else seems to know the reality.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 10, 2013 -> 09:38 AM) Dunn is the poster boy of this awful offense. With all the money flying around MLB currently even $10M paid to get rid of him is worth it because it shows a fresh start. Sox fans have had enough of Dunn. Says the guy who wants the Sox to get Dan Uggla.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Nov 9, 2013 -> 12:30 PM) Right. Even when he's "dialed in," it's not like he's driving the ball with any authority. He's just slapping the ball around and getting hits. That's great if you're Juan Pierre. Did Beckham steal your girlfriend?

QUOTE (ChiSoxFan05 @ Nov 9, 2013 -> 12:29 PM) Are you looking at career or 2013? What are you basing it on? In 2012 he threw out 18%. He did throw out 31% in 2011 when he had 26 PB. Other than that, he has been below average every year. 23% career vs. 27% league average.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 8, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) You're mistaken my friend, it was the other way around actually. 5 of his 6 HRs were in the 2/3 spot. What happened was Ramirez went a long time without homering, went to the #3 spot I think in a doubleheader and homered in each game. Then he stated something about the different responsiblility in the 2 hole, but there were plenty of times when he was hitting in the 2 hole a homer would have been helpful, so his reasoning didn't really make a ton of sense. The fact is his HR totals have been in freefall. His doubles have increased, as have the SB. If the Sox can win a few games, maybe his mind won't wander as much. He is still worth his paycheck.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Nov 8, 2013 -> 09:52 AM) So much for Bryan Pena. Signs a 2 year deal with the Reds. Going to back up Mesaroco. Hanigan likely to get traded. Tyler Flowers actually has a better career OPS vs. RHP.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 7, 2013 -> 01:16 PM) The line has moved from +2.5 to -1 or -1.5 in favor of the Bears. Kicking myself a bit since I was planning on betting them tonight. After watching the first meeting between these teams, it's surprising money would be on the Bears. They couldn't stop Detroit with Briggs.

Flowers might get $1 million, and even if you offer him arb and he wins, can't you release him during spring training and pay him 20% or some sort? If Jarrod Saltilamaccia is worth 4 years and $36-40 million, Tyler Flowers is probably worth $1 million for 1 year or at least $200k to see where he's at this spring. I'm no fan, but he has shown he's a decent back up who can hit homers.

If Thibs didn't just sign an extension, Gar Forman would love to blame him for what is going on. The Bulls are hard to watch right now.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 08:00 AM) Either I am the only honest guy here or I am the only one who sucks at fantasy football. I sure as hell aren't leading either of my leagues in scoring. 4-5 9th of 12 - 6th in points 4-5 8th of 10 - LAST in points My team sucks. I'm getting beat by 12 year olds. Of course a lot of my problems are injury related. I lost by 7 this week with Arian Foster and Aaron Rodgers in my line up. Jimmy Graham got me a goose egg a few weeks ago, so I lost, then he was a game time decision last week and they said he would be limited, so I went with Reggie Wayne. He gets hurt, Graham scores a TD or 2, I lose by 5. I am 3-6. I also have about a 80 point lead in points scored against me.

If Martin really was tough, after this harassment, he should have picked up a gun and shot Incognito right in the face. That would have been G. I'm sure Incognito's dad would have shown some respect. The fact that Incognito's dad is mentioning Martin being suicidal makes this even more dispicable.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 12:30 PM) I assumed when he said "look into taking advantage of" that it was something that would require effort on the part of the Sox. If the Cubs leave WGN and that leads to increasing White Sox viewership on the same channel, that doesn't require any effort on the part of the White Sox. Although I'd consider giving up a kidney to get them off WCIU, if that helps. I agree about games on the "U", and I'm local. The sound is horrific every broadcast, and there seems to be other technical issues more often than when they are on the other stations.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) I can't imagine any coach who's not already a huge friend of Ozzie being willing to take him onto his staff. That's a ridiculous level of distraction from your 3b coach. Seriously, imagine having the media crowding around your bench coach after the game waiting for him to say something stupid and then having to clean up his mess for a week or two every year. Maybe if Joey Cora gets the Mariners job I could see that, but then would Ozzie be comfortable being 2nd fiddle to a guy who was 2nd fiddle to him? It might be a problem, but if he isn't the manager, he may be able to back off a bit. They were showing a 2003 Marlins playoff game a few weeks ago on MLB Network, and Sutcliffe was going on and on about what a great 3B coach Ozzie was. Maybe it was his evil twin "Greg Sutcliffe".

QUOTE (Tex @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 12:56 PM) Are Ozzie's chances now better about managing in Bristol? Turning this back on Ozzie, does he get a chance again to manage? I say no. He has proven to be too much of a liability for a franchise plus he hasn't taken a team past their expected production in 8 years. In fact his teams seem to underperform the majority of the time in the past 8 seasons. That's a really good question. I think the only way he manages again in the major leagues, is if he takes a coaching job and the organization gets comfortable with him, and he takes over that team eventually. If Loria is willing to pay him for 3 or 4 years to do nothing, I think other teams realize, that while Loria is a problem, Ozzie has had issues with both organizations he managed.

One other thing to keep in mind about Garcia in game 4 when the Sox won by 6, he only allowed one hit and no walks the last 5 innings. He was cruising.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 11:49 AM) Nor was I. I also bet that my 0.1% chance of the White Sox relievers giving up more than 6 runs is closer than 3%. What you are suggesting by saying that is that, in every 33 chances, any bullpen pitcher is liable to give up 7 runs in 1 inning of work. How many relievers even gave up 7 runs in an appearance - even including more than 1 inning - at all this year? It's silly that you two are getting so worked up over this. Again, let me explain #1) Ozzie was lucky that his team was even in a position to throw 4 complete games in a row. Ozzie was NOT LUCKY TO WIN because his pitchers threw 4 complete games in a row or whatever. #2) In the case where the White Sox clearly had the game wrapped up, I would have removed the starter to allow him to remain fresher to throw in a potential game 7, which was still very much in doubt at that point. #3) Leaving Garcia in or going to a reliever, nobody would have cared either way because neither decision was incorrect. a. If Ozzie puts in a reliever, he is not wrong. b. If Ozzie leaves Garcia in, he is not wrong. Do we understand this or do I have to say it about 12 or 13 more times before this thread can die again? They only had a 6 run lead once in the 4 games. 2 3 run leads and won one by 1 run, thanks AJP. If you thought he was not wrong, why did you even start this argument by saying his leaving the pitchers in was not smart? You also hinted earlier that his leaving them in may have affected their performance in 2006. So you are all over the place. For a guy who says someone else is always trying to get the last word, you do spend a lot of time trying to get the last word. If Greg wants to think Ozzie is a genius, why does that bother you?

I'm no Ozzie apologist. When he was hired, I didn't think he would last 1 season. But IMO he was a really good manager his first 3 seasons. Even in 2006. After that, he was too focused on himself. I don't think he's the genius Greg thinks he is, but he obviously knew what he was doing during the 2005 postseason.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 11:36 AM) Just want to point out that sometimes suboptimal decisions still work out. If Option A will work 10% of the time while Option B works 90% of the time, you didn't make the best choice if you happen to go with A and it happens to work out. But that is one reason I used 3%. If the OBP the next AB goes from .320 to .350, that's an increase of 3%. If the odds the bullpen implodes are 3%, it's pretty much a wash. I'll go with the guy who is cruising as long as his pitch count isn't inflated and he's feeling fine instead of the unknown. If he gives up a hit or 2, then you take him out. And that is what Ozzie did during the WS, and what he would have done during the ALCS. If you don't need your bullpen, there is no point using them.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 11:37 AM) According to what? How are there too many variable involved? What are they? What is the threshold for "too many?" There are always too many variables involved to predict the future with certainty. That does NOT mean you shouldn't use what you know to hedge your chances. Just randomly guessing when you don't have to isn't really trying very hard. There are too many variables involved in human biology to ever really get the field of medicine right. Should we stop trying? Has our incomplete picture of medicine NOT helped us increase the quality of our lives? Just looking at his game logs in 2005, Bobby Jenks gave up 3 runs in a game himself 3 times. For it to be 3%, the team only had to do it 5 times.

It would be interesting to see the actual comments after these games. I bet there was more Ozzie was a genius than idiot. Probably more interesting would be the gamethread when El Duque shut down Boston. I know when he was trotting in I was WTFing, and when it worked out, I didn't think of Ozzie as a guy who made a dumb decision that somehow worked out.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 6, 2013 -> 10:59 AM) Which is why I said there's a 99.999% chance that it would have been fine. If you prefer 99.9% (meaning 1 in 1,000 rather than 1 in 100,000) then whatever, it was a miniscule chance that it would have had an effect. Considering you are using sabermetrics for your argument which is heavily dependant on math, I think you would have to agree the 1 in 1000 that the Sox bullpen implodes isn't anywhere near accurate. I would say there would be at least a 3% chance they implode. Probably nearly the same as the difference of the percentage of getting on base between the 3rd and 4th times through the order.

The result is the only thing that matters. If you want to think Ozzie was a genius because he left his pitchers in, fine. If you want to think Ozzie was "not smart" for not yanking his pitchers, fine. The Sox won. Why have a problem with what was done 8 years later? And to say the ultimate result would have been the same if he had used the bullpen, while perhaps true, is total speculation, certainly not a fact.

Even if Martin needed "toughening up", I think it's pretty sad if anyone thinks they way that was supposed to be accomplished actually makes one "tougher". How is wanting to punch out Incognito going to make Martin tougher? What if he couldn't take the hazing anymore and actually went farther than throwing a punch? Being in a fraternity in college, I am very familiar with hazing, and the few individuals who seem to actually live to haze people. I agree, a lot of it is harmless, but there is always someone around willing to take it to another level. It's beyond stupid IMO. Just cut it all out before something really tragic happens.