Dick Allen

According to Ken Rosnethal, one teams internal formula has the White Sox pitching staff the most productive in baseball. If that means the best and it hold up, the doom and gloomers are going to be unhappy watching the Sox win more than they lose.

Things would have been pretty much the same most likely. The big difference on this board is while the Sox srtill aren't scoring runs, its not blamed on the hitting coach anymore. If you really want a better offense, you need better players. If hitting coaches made the difference in every hitter some believe they do, they would be making $25 million a year. They would be far more valuable than any player.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:39 PM) Now you're just being weird. Why take this stance? Anti-Cubs? It's also a lie, Hahn uses this stuff. He also uses numbers, graphs, charts as much as any coach in the business. A guy can steal 3rd without a guy attempting to steal 2nd. Even if Rios was stealing 3rd from the dugout, it doesn't mean Konerko would have been running. We've covered this multiple times. You using "Paul wasn't running" isn't evidence it wasn't from the dugout. Until we heard who it was, the assumption is it was called. Paul not going doesn't do anything to counter that. That's funny, because he uses numbers to make most of his decisions. He's not a gut manager. Why don't you just admit you were wrong? You are out here ripping Hawk for being wrong, but when you were blatantly wrong because you have a specific target you want to blame, you refuse to admit it. A guy can steal third without the runner on first moving, but given a LH batter is up, Konerko was not being looked at, he had a far better shot at second than Rios did,at 3rd. BTW,Managers have been using numbers far before sabermetrics came to be when making decisions. Even the the teams that use sabermetrics the most employ advanced scouts. Shifts like the one used when Dunn bats have been part of the game for years. And if you don't think Maddon ever uses his "gut" you are wrong yet again.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 09:59 AM) Fantastic? Hardly. Yes, throw would go to 2nd base there. They are slamming Hawk because Hawk is a buffoon. Not embrace stupidity? Why does that have to turn into a rallying cry? I wish they threw to second. The guy on first wasn't running. Rios would have been safe. I also pointed that out as a reason it wasn't called feom the dugout, you said it was stupid. Its funny, you were wrong, yet still won't even admit it.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 10:57 PM) Ventura has had people steal with Dunn at bat, which has been covered on this board and makes no sense. If Konerko's going, you can guess where the throw is going to take the guaranteed out. Again, the whole point of this thing is Hawk is willfully refusing information that can help assess talent, chances to win, etc. It's beyond ignorant and stupid. The fact that the Sox are going to try to rally around it makes it worse. Plus, the Sox front office uses it to help them put together the team! It doesn't make sense on any level. But hey, let's trot out this TWTW s***, because that's what matters. Everyone take a few minutes and read this. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=20371 Not 3rd base. Again you willfully disregarded information that turned out to be correct just because you want to always blame Ventura. You wouldn't even consider it. said it was stupid. It is exactly the same thing you are slamming Hawk for doing. Its pretty funny you still can't see it. Also BP is obviously going to slam Hawk. They are in the sabermetric business. I don't think anyone here believes Hawk's total dismissal of sabermetrics is correct.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 03:02 PM) Wasn't all the talk this year about how this is the worst draft in decades? Why do people get so upset about it? Was that for the entire draft or just skill positions? I supposed if its the worst draft for skill positions it would make it the worst draft overall.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 02:50 PM) I have to disagree, you are looking at this from a "everything will go right perspective." The problem is that Kyle Long has historically been a guy that "everything will go wrong", whether its getting kicked out of FSU, dui, etc, Kyle Long does not have a history you can hang your hat on. Once again he could become a HOF, just seems like an extreme risk on a 1st round pick, when it was not really necessary. Hes one of the few players in this draft where its possible due to circumstances outside of football, never even plays a down. I think that is beyond dramatic. Considering how little he's played, and his past transgressions,the fact that he was considered a late first/second round selection would indicate a tremendous upside. I think the Bears feel they have a guy who will anchor their OL for years. If he's a bust, he's no different than many other Bears #1 picks.

The White Sox draft football players with their first round picks. The Bears draft baseball players.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 02:27 PM) Its pretty obvious the dream is for him to be a tackle, the problem is that he is extremely raw, with very little on field playing time. I just am not really a big fan of that strategy, unless you are planning to go 5-11 or worse, and then who cares, get him in there for 16 games and get experience. But right now the bears just keep being in the middle, which is the worst place for a team. I don't think his rawness hurts him as much in football as it would in other sports. If he's as gifted and good as they say, they can coach him up and he should be decent, which is an upgrade for the Bears, in short order. If they do plan to play him at G, it makes me wonder if a guy like Carimi is out the door. The beat writers made it a point at the end of the season to mention that Carimi was their choice to be most improved in 2013. Apparently he still wasn't healthy. Maybe he's never going to be healthy.

Tony Wise, Wanne's buddy, worked with Long at the Senior Bowl. He said he would put him at LT. Thinks he's as good as the #1 pick.

Besides Jeremy Brown, does Billy Beane draft players based on sabermetrics? To me, that would be crazy.

If the Sox can score 10 runs tonight, they will have scored the exact same number of runs through 22 games as the team a lot of people want them to be like. Their current opponent.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 01:45 PM) Ventura has made weird moves before, so situation didn't matter. I could turn that around. The situation in which Rios ran should be ample proof Rios didn't go on his own. Wouldn't Rios understand the situation? Or is his TWTW not high enough? Konerko was on first, of course he wouldn't move as he'd be thrown out by about 40 feet. Doesn't do anything. Because someone can look at what it tells the WAR is of a particular player, compare it to other stats for that player and other players, and come to their own conclusion that it's pretty accurate at valuing players. If WAR wasn't an accurate measure of anything, it wouldn't be so prevalent and would be dismissed anyway. I don't think Ventura has ever had someone try to steal 3rd with Dunn at bat. Alex isn't known for his baseball acumen. If Rios was going, Konerko, as slow as he is, could have made second without a throw. It's tough to admit you saying something was stupid was wrong, but you were way off. If you don't know how WAR is calculated or any one of the other sabermetric numbers, I don't think you should consider yourself some knowledgable guy because you throw it around. In fact WAR is calculated in a couple different ways. BR and fangraphs have totally different numbers, and most say fangraphs is better, but a lot of the people who say it's better can't answer why. The poster who doesn't know how GDP is calculated but still trusts it, probably wouldn't go around saying he is an amateur economist.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 01:03 PM) There's also been a few decades of exposure to advanced metrics now, so it's expected that you'd see traditional scouting evaluations and saber-type evaluations converge--they're both influenced by each other and the results on the field. The fact is a good performance is a good performance. Hawk is IMO wrong for totally dismissing sabermetrics, but really he and Brian Kenny, who seems to be at the exact opposite end probably would rank players very similarly. In reality, although both sides would probably like to tell you it is, this isn't democrats vs. republicans.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 12:59 PM) SABR guys hate Viciedo and Ramirez. Harrelson will tell you the ball just jumps or explodes off his bat....that's he got power to all fields, bat speed, blah blah blah. (What he won't explain is why that bat speed ends up only turning around fastballs or pitches between 75-90 MPH normally). Heck, most guys who don't walk very much aren't in favor with that crowd. They've programmed themselves to look more at OPS, RC/RC27, OBP or WAR. It can be overdone, to the point where anyone striking out less than 6 hitters per 9 IP in the minor leagues isn't given a second thought...for example. The one thing I will never understand saber-ly if that is even a term, is how offensively, strikeouts mean absolutely nothing, but for pitchers, they mean a heck of a lot.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 12:51 PM) You had no evidence to prove Rios went on his own or missed a sign. Until there's evidence to the contrary, it's assumed the manager made that move, because, well, that's what mangers do. If something happens on a field and 95% of the time the manger made it happen, and we have a situation in which something happened, what's more likely? 95>5? If Hawk knows so much about baseball, he should spend time talking about it on the air. All he does is talk about the good old days and yell catch-phrases. Try to teach people about the game. He doesn't, everything to him is just a mental mindset. TWTW. Give me a break. Yes, that wins games over all else. Theo Epstein didn't exactly have a background in baseball before he got into it. Who would you rather have running a team, a smart guy like him, or Hawk? Hawk may know intricacies but again, he ignores advanced metrics which help you understand the game better. He's only about the scouting angle - if that. He didn't even make that argument yesterday, he just talked about desire. Numbers don't lie. Saying Viciedo has the liveliest bat since Carlos Delgado (LOL) doesn't tell you how good he'll be or how good he is now. A deeper look into numbers will. But maybe he has a lot of TWTW, I don't know how to measure that. You don't have to know exactly how WAR is calculated as long as you know what it means and what it represents. That goes for any stat. I bet a lot of people couldn't tell me how slugging % is calculated, but they probably can look at some numbers of hitters and tell if they are below average, average, great, etc. The situation in which Rios ran should have been ample proof Ventura didn't send him. I pointed that out and the fact the runner on first, who isn't being looked at at all or held on, didn't move. You said it was stupid. If you don't know how WAR is calculated, how can you conclude it is an accurate measure?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 12:51 PM) Don't sabrmetrics guys and non-sabremtrics guys agree on the value of players 99.99% of the time? This is what I think. How many times does it occur the non saber guys think a guy is great and the saber guys say he sucks and vice versa?

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 12:24 PM) Your last two sentences could have also described Ozzie Guillen. Doubtful at best. Playing the game doesn't equal knowing the game better, it's such a pointless card to play. What is it, 2-3 GMs right now actually played the game at the MLB level? He thinks he knows the game so well and has it all figured out, that's why he ignores all these advanced metrics. Those metrics help people understand the game better than him. He's outright refusing to learn more and gather more accurate information. This is ironic considering when I told you it was likely Rios missed a sign or attempted to steal on his own the other day, and pointed out some evidence, you quickly dismissed it and referred to my assumptions as stupid. Then it comes out Rios went on his own. Seems you are the one who thinks he has all the answers. You don't necessarily have to play the game in the major leagues to be successful. That was proven. But I do think you have to be around it for a while. And experience is knowledge. A person working JP Morgan today who happened to be a saber-wizard in his spare time, would probably not be very successful if he were hired as a GM tomorrow. Hawk knows a heck of a lot more about intricacies of hitting and pitching than most guys here will ever know. He doesn't know what WAR is, but the funny thing is, most of the people who throw WAR around have zero idea how it's even calculated. Yet they are "knowlegable", and Hawk is an "embarrassment"

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 12:15 PM) It's an embarrassment for the franchise, not for me personally. I don't see any evidence that Hawk knows more about the game than 99% of the people here. About actually playing the game at the professional level? Sure, for however relevant the 60's experiences still are. For GM'ing a team? Sure, for however relevant his disastrous run in the 80's still is. About the modern day ins-and-outs of baseball, especially in-game strategy? He seems to be proudly and willfully ignorant. There's plenty of evidence.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 12:04 PM) It's an embarrassment for the franchise in the eyes of fans and potential fans, not that other teams' fans will laugh at them. It seems people here seem to be embarrassed by Hawk's views. I don't understand why. I guess it's just part of the gig of being a White Sox fan. Funny thing is, Hawk knows more about the game than probably 99% or more of the people he's "embarrassing". The Sox certainly were not embarrassed, or they wouldn't have let him go on TV.

I don't understand this entire embarrassment angle. Who, other than Sox fans on a message board is even paying much attention to this? I don't think Yankee, Red Sox, Reds, Angels or any of the other teams fans give a crap about what Hawk thinks about sabermetrics.

If Emery is to be believed, he wasn't moving down if Long was still on the board. This is who he was targeting all along. Says he's an athletic freak.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 09:05 AM) Sarcasm, because I was vilified in one of the game threads for saying I wanted the Sox to win 10-8, but for Axelrod to get shelled, so then Santiago could take his spot. I was told it's insane, unjust, and flat out wrong to ever hope a player does anything but succeed for my team, regardless of the benefits from a poor performance. So it really bothers you when Axelrod does well? If you are supposedly a White Sox fan, the villification is justified. I think Santiago, if he were in Axelrod's position, would be very happy with the results so far. One bad outing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 26, 2013 -> 07:52 AM) Mark Gonzales ‏@MDGonzales 8h First time Adam Dunn hasn't struck out in a game since April 12 at Cleveland Last year he had some amazing strikeout every game streak going. He is the DiMaggio of strike out kings. Not only can he set standards by striking out multiple times per game, he can strike out in more consecutive games than just about anyone. He was even able to keep his streak alive last year with a couple of pinch hit appearances.

Sox have not scored more than 3 runs in a game in 8 days.