Dick Allen

Whether Braun is "vindicated" or not, it appears he still would have been hopped up on steroids either way. Even if the don't suspend him, I hope they take away the MVP.

QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:49 PM) Now, the Sox are backing off rebuilding according to JR. I knew they would never do it. Say hello to 3rd or 4th place thru 2020 +. They don't want to say rebuilding, although KW already did. Its not good for ticket sales. First installments due 12/14. Considering Buehrle was wanted by 14 teams and would have pitched for the Sox for less of a team committment than any other team, and the Sox didn't even extend an offer, I believe everyone knows where this is heading.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:36 PM) Honestly, there's no talking to you. We can go back and forth all day and night. You can poke all kinds of holes in rebuilding. I can do just the same in going with the status quo or throwing millions at free agents or "name" guys. Ozzie's gone. Walker's gone. Mark's gone. We've got a manager that's never managed. Like it or not, the franchise is going in a different direction. But you can do your part and stop going to games to send a message that you're not happy. I will continue to go to games, even if on paper 3rd/4th place is more realistic than 1st. Yes, KW sucks and I want him gone. He offered to step down and Jerry wasn't having it. So KW's got one last chance. In his defense, and this really pains me, we've never seen KW in any mode other than go-for-it mode. It'll be interesting to see if he FINALLY learns from his past mistakes. Ozzie's gone, that's supposed to be good. Walker's gone, everyone should hit .300. Buehrle gone without an offer...........great move by your standards, horrible by mine. Ventura never managed before? So what. Didn't Brenly win the WS the first season he ever managed? Will Robin be splitting the atom or something in the dugout? Do you think during the 15 years or so he played, he paid no attention? Its not like he has to install a new offense or defense. Its baseball. If it all requires years of experience at the major league level, none of us should have anything to say. This is not the hardest division to win. Mistakes were made. The two glaring mistakes costing the Sox about $26 million a year are going to be around for a while. I'm slightly optimistic with Peavy, not as optimistic as JR, but certainly feel unless he gets hurt again, he will be better. Sale will probably be good if he remains healthy, but in no way is he going to be able to match Buehrle's innings. We have a guy who can't pick players who have proven they can play making decisions. To let him chose guys who haven't proved anything yet could mean this team will be awful for at least 5 years. Where does attendance go then? If then guys can play, they have to get paid, no one is coming to the park and to think they will suddenly hop back to 2 million fans after 4,5,6 years of being totally irrelavant is beyond silly, the Sox won't be able to pay those players, so guess what, more prospects. Face it, the Sox 2008 first round pick was in the major leagues in 2009 and in 2010 you were already calling him a bust. You don't have patience for rebuilding.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:57 PM) Lillibridge gets the first chance at SS after Ramirez is traded. You really want the Sox to suck. If Lillibridge has any value, I'd trade him. He'll fall back to earth.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 02:02 PM) And look at the state those franchises are in right now? They spent their millions and millions and millions and won nothing (not even a single WS appearance). So instead of spending millions JR should just be pocketing it? The White Sox successfully rebuilt beginning after the 1986 season. 1990 was the return to prominence. Even drafting guys like Thomas, McDowell, Ventura and Fernandez, that didn't net them a WS either, so I guess by your standards that rebuild was a total failure, however, in 2005, picking up retreads like Dye and El Duque, they did win the WS. Go figure. The White Sox have many advantages over their division counterparts. Its time they use them. A new GM, the right GM, would have this team dominating. The GM we have now apparently has now become content to be in first place a few days during the season.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 10:56 AM) Losing period isn't much fun. You bring up the Pirates, Royals and Orioles? I counter with the Mets, Cubs and Dodgers. You seem to be content with losing as long as the names on the roster are recognizable (I'm canceling my season ticket package because I can't watch Mark Buehrle throw every five days; who cares if we're perpetually stuck in no-man's land). The Rays aren't where they are simply because of high draft picks from five years ago. That's the lazy/easy way to look at it. There were they are because they're a top-flight organization from top-to-bottom. They scout better than any other team. They pick up dirt-cheap impact talent better than any other team. They know when it's time to part with guys (Kazmir when he was done, Garza when he was getting expensive) and not lose anything because they're always planning ahead. They preach defense, baserunning and execute both better than any other team. All this while dealing with the Yankees and Red Sox. The game has changed over the last five years and the Sox have failed miserably at adapting to that change. They've dismissed the draft/LA; made multiple short-sighted trades for non-impact talent or past their prime vets; took on extremely hefty contracts in years and money for guys with serious question marks and here they are. It didn't have to be this way. But it is now. Forgive me if I choose to want to see a new M.O. For you, just believing there's a chance going into the season is enough. I've seen enough fail over the last five years where that is no longer good enough for me. Since KW has been the GM, the Sox have made the playoffs twice. The Mets only have made it once in that time. The Cubs have made it 3 times, the Dodgers 4 times. If KW made the playoffs 4 times in 11 seasons, most wouldn't complain.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 10:34 AM) Some words from the chairman himself. "He gave us a chance to keep him and I'm sure he would've taken less money to come back," Reinsdorf said of Buehrle. "He just didn't fit into our plans. That's the thing. You can't let personal feelings for players stand in the way of letting the general manager do what he feels is right for the team."

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 10:17 AM) Or you could spend 120+ million on an old, unathletic, played out roster. But hey, at least they're familiar names. Salivating over A ball rosters isn't much fun. The fans in Pittsburgh, KC and Baltimore are probably sick about hearing of prospects. I'm sure the few fans left in Oakland are getting a little sick of getting prospects, developing them, then dealing them for some more wondering if the cycle will ever stop. One poster thought the Sox should be more like the Rays. Apparently he didn't realize how bad for how long the Rays had to be to get to their current position. The fact is most who want this do not have the patience for it. Gordon Beckham played in the minor leagues a very short time. Yet it hasn't taken long for many to call him a bust. I don't have the patience for it. I want to get to the middle of winter with some hope on my mind, knowing that chances are I will be dissappointed at some point, but the 2 or so times a decade I'm not, makes it well worth it. Going into seasons with no hope isn't going to be good for business. Milkman will be there. He'll probably have his own personal vendors.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 09:10 AM) Yep, welcome to perpetual rebuilding Oakland style. You get young players and once they get good, you dump them for more young players. Yeah but you get to see prospects, and for a lot of people on this board, that's a better option than watching your team win.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) Back in the days of the old park, and when Robert Taylor homes were still there, there was very good reason to be scared of it. No way I would have gone there. But now? Works great, and I feel no less safe than at the Red Line stop. The green line 35th street stop was the red line 35th street stop through the 90 or 91 season. Then they switched.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 09:40 AM) Good thing you are not a Cardinals fan, then....can't imagine what you would be saying about Pujols. At least Albert HAD the option to come back for something like $40-50 million less in total dollars, and he was offered more by the Marlins. Mark never was offered by the Cardinals or the White Sox, to our knowledge. As far as grading the Winter Meetings, it's way too early. Most of baseball has been waiting on Pujols and Wilson. Fielder's still out there....I just read an article praising Boras for not striking too quickly, so the same thing has to be true about holding onto Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Thornton and potentially AJ/Ramirez/Konerko. There are 7 teams out there (at least) still looking for a 1B. I would actually rather they traded Konerko and stuck Dunn/Viciedo/Quentin at 1B and let DeAza play everyday. Now that Buehrle's gone, they aren't so much better off waiting for Konerko to recede back to norm/mean. They could actually get something decent back in return and clear more contract space for 2012/2013. Frasor was all about KW's ego and having to prove the value of that Jackson deal. But with Sale, Santos and probably Thornton gone, they thought he was needed for additional depth. In reality, the pen will probably be Reed/Crain/Frasor/Ohman/Santiago/Molina or Stewart. The only expensive pitchers in that pen are Crain and Frasor, the two veterans. Ohman's 'meh' as far as contract dollars, sure, a bit of an overpay, but he's going to have to earn his money this year. But there's just no way to possibly grade KW at all until we see what our final roster is heading into April. That's 4-7 players who could all be traded, which is obviously a significant portion of the payroll going forward. Considering all the missteps that have occurred since 2005, the White Sox are in this mess because of 2 moves. Picking up Rios on waivers and not re-signing Thome when he was willing to do so for pennies. They sign Thome, he has a decent year like he did when he first went to MN, he gets resigned . Adam Dunn, even with all his consistent numbers doesn't even enter the equation.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 09:08 AM) The first clear sign that the rebuild is going wrong, I think KW will finally be moved upstairs. He was owed the chance to at least try to fix his own mess without Ozzie around to sabotage things. Everyone knows the history of first round draft picks, and our barren minor league system. Just a year ago, Beckham looked like a future All-Star, and Sale a future rotation fixture, if not Randy Johnson Lite. Mitchell was doing great the year he was drafted....unfortunately, that ankle injury set him back 1 1/2 years. There's nothing KW could have done to prevent that one. It's not like everything he's done has been horrible recently. They got more than anyone in the majors could get out of both Humber and Santos. Have nurtured Dayan Viciedo along quite nicely. Selected a future closer in Addison Reed. Picked up DeAza for nothing. Morel showed lots of promise the final six weeks of the season, if only he can continue to build on that. Tyler Flowers finally showed some signs, Lillibridge even moreso. We're we saying the same kinds of things about KW after 2001, before 2005, after 2007 and again now? One way or the other, we have to live with JR's decision, so I've decided it's easier to think optimistically rather than just be upset about the last 3 seasons. The NBA is all about superstars, and everyone knew that Jordan and Pippen were 60% of the reason for the Bulls' success. That's so hard to replicate in baseball or the NFL. None of the players you have mentioned have actually proven themselves as of yet. If all goes perfectly, which is highly unlikely, the Sox still would need some top of the line guys who also panned out. I also don't understand the idea of "kicking him upstairs". I guess it was because Paxson was kicked upstairs but that's only because he wanted to still do GM stuff without having all the GM responsibilities like dealing with the press, and JR wanted him to still be part of the decision making process. I don't know how anyone would call the Sox GM job a good one knowing JR's boy KW is still around carrying a voice. You'd be a fake GM just like a lot of the GM jobs in baseball.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 08:21 AM) Because we won our only World Series in most of our lifetimes with him as the GM, Rick Hahn's still around and we've added some experienced guys in scouting and development. I get it....the last 3 years have been brutal and it's easier to look at the glass as half empty rather than half full, but we've been fooled before when we had high expectations (2001/2006/2009/2011) and we've excelled when we were the underdogs and nothing was expected out of us. The Bulls won 6 championships with Jerry Krause as the GM. At some point it becomes obvious that people lose their touch. No one came knocking at Krause's door to build them a winner. I doubt any team wants a guy who has a $127 million payroll in the AL Central and finishes 3rd. Now you want to trust KW to rebuild your team. Lets look at the first round picks since Kenny has been calling the shots: SEASON PLAYER POS SCHOOL/HOMETOWN PICK 2010 Chris Sale LHP Florida Gulf Coast University 13 2009 Jared Mitchell OF LSU 23 2008 Gordon Beckham SS Univ. of Georgia 8 2007 Aaron Poreda LHP San Francisco 25 2006 Kyle McCulloch RHP Texas 29 2005 Lance Broadway RHP TCU 15 2004 Josh Fields 3B Oklahoma State 18 2003 Brian Anderson OF U. of Arizona 15 2002 Roger Ring LHP San Diego State 18 2001 Kris Honel RHP Providence HS, New Lenox 16 You really think it would be a 2-3 year process with this bozo? He needs to go, pronto. Say thanks for 2005, but we actually want to win, not come up with excuses and catch phrases like "Chicago tough". How JR can't see through all his BS, especially his Ventura story, and make no mistake, I actually don't mind his hiring, but the whole BS about interviewing for a managerial position while he was playing, is beyond me. Trying to make himself actually be what most erroneously think he is, a Stanford educated intellectual who happens to have a background in baseball is more BS. The reality was he was there on a football scholarship and lasted one semester. He's a phony. If JR was only going to get of one, he did the right thing and launced Ozzie. Ozzie would have been a huge problem if he won out over his boss. But he really needed to get rid of both.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 07:32 AM) I'm glad they didn't too. What happens if they came up with an offer just below the Marlins. Then it puts Buehrle in the position of looking like the bad guy signing with the highest bidder and abandoning the "home town discount" crap every team hopes their fan favorite players sign. Of course, he may have returned -- but I don't feel it's right for Buehrle to have his last big contract for this team when we'll probably have some tough years ahead. Let the White Sox look bad in the eyes of the few who can't see this team for what it is. I think to have a pitcher of Buehrle's calibur, one where it was reported there were 14 teams on him, to NEVER even make him an offer looks bad. Not before he became a free agent, not at the end of the process when from what he said and I was watching, he wasn't looking for a match. Buehrle signed a 4 year $58 million contract and he called it a sad day. What's even sadder is where the White Sox apparently are at right now, and the people most responsible for that are still making the decisions. I can't fathom why anyone would be optimistic with a rebuild with KW at the helm.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 07:47 AM) MLB has done exactly this many times before, without owning a team. Go back and research when the Oakland A's literally tried to sell of their world series teams in the 70's. Many thought the reason those particular deals were cancelled was something personal between Kuhn and Finley. IIRC the last time the commissioner blocked a trade or major league signing which didn't involve illegal contact or something like that with a foreign player was 1990, when the White Sox were denied adding Minnie Minoso to the roster. The league owning a team is so wrong in so many ways IMO.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 07:39 AM) Speaking of giving it a rest, the dude is already better than Lance Broadway ever was. Check Lance Broadway at Birmingham as a 22 year old vs. Doyle at Birmingham as a 25 year old, then pop off.

Buehrle just on CSN, called today a sad day. Said he never received an offer from the Sox, said when things were going to go down, went back to the Sox for some sort of offer, not neccessarily a match, and the Sox declined. So he confirmed the Sox never made him an offer. I think its pretty hard to call a guy a hypocrite when the team apparently didn't want him.

He's 26 years old. Give it a rest. The Sox most likely will be able to buy him back for $25k. The chances of him turning into anything better than Lance Broadway are slim.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 04:00 PM) Looks like the Knicks got a bargain on Tyson Chandler at 4 years and 58 million. Thrifty SOB's. That's Mark Buehrle money.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:13 PM) It may not be rocket science but are looking at it from a very narrow point of view. His defensive stats are awful but does this outweigh the fact that he will hit better when he plays in the field? you need to look at both sides. also your your point about 75 pitch Peavy is short sighted. If he doesn't pitch more than that he will never build up strength thus he would never be able to pitch more than that. He was coming off a major injury and needed to build up the strength. You can quote stats all you want and most have some validity (but not reliability) to them. However you also need to look at the player as well and there may be a better way to look at it. As any researcher knows I can create any statistical model to say what I want, it doesn't mean it is generalizable to every case. Dunn actually hit better as a DH than he did playing the field. He was 14-122 when playing the field with 60 strikeouts. That pencils out to a .115 average. It truly is amazing how bad he was in 2011. I think he's a lock to improve, but he can improve a bunch and still be bad.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Dec 1, 2011 -> 12:52 PM) 2011 Full Season ticket package price vs. 2012 Full Season ticket package price. Level 2011 Price 2012 Price Premium Club Box 3682 3682 Club Box 3439 3439 Prem. Lower Box 3682 3682 Lower Box 3034 2918 Lower Reserve 2710 2432 Bleachers 2548 2270 Prem. Upper Box 1900 1865 Upper Box 1738 1460 Upper Reserve 1414 974 Parking remains the same. $1458 for 81 games. $18 per game. Did you get the email about buying parking before 12/31? There's a new $2 city tax or something. I never had parking so it just glanced at it, but if you don't buy before then, I believe the parking is increasing, although the Sox won't see any of it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:16 PM) Where's Greg Hibbard when needed, haha? This whole thread is ridiculous. Buehrle has said the same types of things that EVERY ATHLETE IN THE HISTORY OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS has said about money. It would be the corollary to an athlete saying, "F--- my family, I'm going where the union and my agent tell me to go, for the most years, and the most dollars." Buehrle leaving was the right business decision for the Sox, there's no question about it. It just seems pointless that we kept the likes of Juan Pierre and Omar Vizquel on the team for as long as we did...but I guess most of that can probably be blamed on Ozzie, right? Buehrle will always be a favorite...and the lack of reaction is more of a generalized acceptance that our team is returning to the 1985-1989 and 1998-1999 mode of rebuilding and patience. That KW is still around absolutely sucks...when all we can do is hope if things go wrong next year (again) that it's so uncomfortable for Williams that he has no choice but to fall on his own sword. Seriously, it absolutely sucks when you expect that you're more likely to compete for the #1 overall draft pick than first place, and yet you have zero faith the White Sox will actually select the right player. I guess because Ozzie and Mark will be together, that does cause more of an emotional reaction on the part of fans...that he picked Ozzie over the White Sox/KW. Anyone is free to see it that way...but the same thing will happen to the future Marlins as happened to the 1997 and 2003 teams, eventually. I prefer to HOPE that everything that can go wrong won't continue to go wrong forever...otherwise, I won't be watching any baseball games for the next 2-3 seasons, except to watch Dayan Viciedo and Paul Konerko hit. They might as well just send Konerko, Danks, AJ, Thornton, Ramirez, Quentin and Floyd packing. With the possible exception of Ramirez, none of them will be around for when the White Sox are capable of contending again. I do think the fact Buehrle is back with Ozzie does make this whole thing chap my ass a little bit more than it usually would.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:48 PM) Yeah, those s***ty fake fans, supporting the team at their lowest! Well you didn't support them this year when they were "all in". I guess you owe them one. Will you be wearing a paper bag over your head.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:55 PM) There is a reason why Loria refuses to offer no-trade clauses. There's huge danger if the team fails and/or the people stop coming to the games. If guys are owed too much money, their contract is their no trade clause. If Reyes averages 100 games a year, he doesn't need a no trade clause.

Is this contract backloaded? Reyes' contract is and supposedly so was the one offerred to Pujols. I get the feeling Loria wants a couple of years in the new park and then wants to sell.