Dick Allen

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 07:00 PM) repeat after me: at this point in time, Quentin didn't HAVE value. Quentin. Didn't. Have. Value. There you go. What do you mean he didn't have value, you just compared the prospects received for him to Konerko, Danks, Thornton, Buerhle, Garland. 3 of which were Ron Schueler's doing. KW fleeced SD.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 06:56 PM) hahahahaha and you think every OTHER teams' prospects have all panned out huh? Yeah this is definitely unique to KW and the White Sox. 95% of ALL prospects don't pan out. Exactly my point, although I would venture to guess KW's percentage is a little lower than average. You're the one basically guaranteeing these not even top 20 prospects in their own organzations are going to turn out like Danks, Konerko, That's why trading proven players for prospects is dangerous and most of the time stupid, unless you are doing it for financial reasons. For winning it doesn't work out much anymore as teams are more reluctant than ever to give up their top guys.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) it's just greg and DickAllen - and it's because we traded him for guys they've never heard of. Kind of like that no namer we drafted in the 38th round in '98, or that third base prospect we got from the Reds, or that kid we traded Matt Karchner for from the Cubs, and that lefty we got from Seattle for the next cant-miss prospect AKA Joe Borchard, or that southpaw we've got replacing Buehrle who we got from Texas a few years back... forget his name too... OH WAIT NOW I REMEMBER ALL OF THEM! Mark Buehrle Paul Konerko Jon Garland Matt Thornton John Danks we didn't know their names either. Actually knew everyone but Buerhle but its nice to know the guys KW acquired for Quentin are guaranteed to turn out like the above. 4 out of 5 were first round draft picks. It is interesting you didn't list all the other players that have been acquired that we didn't "know" and never will, but that would be accurate and ruin your post. Trading Quentin isn't wrong, trading him for garbage is. Just call it a salary dump and leave it at that. Expected anything out of these prospects is silly. All you need to know about the Quentin trade, David Kaplan loved it.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 01:10 PM) But this isn't what you said at all in the post I replied to. You said if you didn't like trading for Jackson, then you should want to trade Floyd immediately. Those two things are not even close to the same thing. One involves acquiring a player you have to spend valuable assets for, and another involves trading away an asset you already have. Completely different things. Wrong. Jackson is better than Floyd. If you don't want his services for 1.5 seasons, which was the complaint from day 1, why would you want Floyd's services for 2 seasons? It seems to me if you didn't like acquiring a guy for that length of time and would rather have what it cost to get him, you would rather have the return on Floyd than have him with an almost identical if not more expensive contract.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 12:38 PM) I woudln't offer that as the White Sox either, but the White Sox don't need pitching. He'd be a big addition to the disasters that were those Boston or NYC rotations, and then there are a bunch of others who could use a righty who takes a lot of innings. The White Sox could alway s use pitching but Boras is going to get a 4 or 5 year deal for Jackson and there is no way JR is going to be committing big money to 2 pitchers for that length of time, unless he's getting out soon. So I do agree, no way Jackson comes back to the Sox, at least not now, I really doubt the Sox have even considered it.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:26 PM) stats be DAMNED???? are you kidding me? and what exactly was he good for all the other times when he WASN'T locked in? You're telling me you're supposed to keep a player who's good only 25% of the time?? I know by now I should just ignore you, but that's up there with one of the dumber things I've read from you. About 95% of MLB hitters get their stats in bunches. The guy who is really consistent week to week is pretty rare. If Quentin hits 24 homers and drives in 80 runs only being good 25% of the time, he's pretty spectacular that 25%.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 11:33 AM) ? Umm, the difference was the Sox already had Floyd on the roster. No one was angry that Jackson was acquired to pitch for us. People were upset about who was used to acquire him (as well as whose spot in the rotation he ultimately took). I don't think anyone disliked Edwin Jackson simply for being Edwin Jackson. However, were a team to offer us a pitcher as effective and with as many pre-arb years left as Dan Hudson when we traded him, I don't think you'd find many people who would complain. Umm, right back at you. A LOT of posters didn't like Jackson then and didn't like him ever with the Sox. The consensus on this board comparing Edwin Jackson and Gavin Floyd would have Floyd the far better pitcher even though Jackson is younger and has been getting better results recently. The fact is, if you think giving Jackson $10-12 million a year is ridiculous, you should think doing the same for Floyd would also be ridiculous, and it makes Floyd's $9.5 million option for 2013 not so much of a bargain as many consider. Its time to deal Gavin if you expect to get anything but the type of return you saw for Quentin.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 08:07 AM) Why would a team trade for Floyd if Jackson is still on the market? The only reason would be if Jackson's demands are outrageous, which would basically eliminate us from the conversation in the first place. So basically, we'd have to sign Jackson and then deal Floyd. I just don't know if I see KW attempting to do such a series of moves. Reinsdorf has never seemed like the type of owner to allow KW to temporarily go over budget to pull off something like this. I like the idea in theory, as I wouldn't mind another starter locked up long-term, and I actually like Jackson more than Floyd (not even including the young talent you'd get for Floyd). However, I think it's clear by the timing of these moves that KW has cleared salary to make a run at Cespedes. Seems like KW waited until to around the new year to make these moves, allowing for offers to improve until he actually needed the cash for Cespedes, who should be a free agent soon. What is interesting is Jackson is actually younger than Floyd and they have been pretty similar overall, Jackson may have even out performed him overall the last 3 seasons. So anyone pissed off the Sox traded for Jackson with a year and a half left on his contract, should probably want Floyd dealt immediately.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) Because he offered to resign and JR said "You can stay" and he didn't quit and throw a tantrum. He really didn't offer to resign. He offered to take another job in the organization. What he didn't say is whether or not he also offered to have his paycheck adjusted accordingly.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:56 PM) $80 million lump sum, $80 million. He said both of them. They don't have to pay a lump sum if the player is released. They pay according to the schedule that is on the contract.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 04:48 PM) If we pursue Cespedes than I am ok with it. I had no problem with the Teahan deal, but it seemed to signal KW's moves to try and somehow recover from some real bad decisions personnelwise on his part. Trading for Teahen was fine. It was the extension that most everyone could see was insane.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 04:08 PM) Don't forget also clearing nearly $10 million on Teahen. Esp. if we happen to sign that Cuban guy. That's a good point, although they never would have had to worry about clearing that money if the GM had been more competent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:00 PM) The all-mighty AA gave him third round money. He has to be good. Considering it was the same draft the Sox picked a guy who thought he was top 3 round talent in round 22, then had his big mouthed brother say the only reason no one drafted poor little Ozney before the 22nd round was because the Sox said they were drafting him, maybe the Blue Jays announced to the world they were taking this guy so that scared everyone else off. I never knew the draft worked that way until Oney enlightened me.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) Drop the draft pick rankings stuff. Both were guys who went way over slots in the later rounds. Jaye was paid like a third rounder. Then why didn't the Sox draft him in the 3rd or 4th round?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) Carlos Quentin might well have been worth less than Frasor, if you consider how much each of them are getting paid next year. Way off.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) Are we supposed to be bringing in elite talent for Quentin and Frasor? If you would have read what I posted, I'm not mad at this particular trade, but some are going to make these "prospects" out to be far more than they really are. For Quentin, I'm not upset they traded him, it was very obvious it would happen. I think the return is like this return. Nothing. I believe he should be worth a little more than that.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:34 PM) And if that 5% comes in then he cost controlled for 6 years. That's kind of the point of stocking up on arms. Stocking up on mediocre at best talent doesn't get you victories. With all the minor leaguers KW has acquired this winter, how much has the Sox farm system moved up ? I'm guessing not very far.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) Kenny needs to start raiding bad farm systems rather than the best in the game just so he can start getting some top 10-15 prospects. People are WAY too hung up on that s***. I don't care how good your farm system is, if a guy isn't in your top 20, he's not very elite, even if it makes him a top 5 or top 10 in the White Sox system.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Of course it's a salary dump. But Jaye is interesting. Not Nestor Molina interesting, but a projectable prep arm interesting. And not being in the top 25 doesn't tell the whole story considering the Blue Jays have the best farm system in baseball. He can be interesting like KW Jr. can be interesting or the Sox drafting Ozney Guillen could be interesting, but reality is this guy has probably less than a 5% chance of ever being as good of a major league pitcher as Jason Frasor is right now, and no one is too upset Jason was sent backing for nothing.

QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Baseball is such a funny sport. You can have a MAJOR flaw in your game, like control issues as a pitcher -- which I'd say is the ONE thing most pitchers need to have to make it -- and still get drafted. Can you imagine a QB that overthrew his receivers all the time getting picked? On the flipside, there are plenty of "receivers" in the NFL, making millions who have a tough time catching the ball.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:21 PM) Both of them are down at A ball/recent draftees, so even if they wind up being great pitchers, they woulnd't be highly ranked yet. One guy was drafted in 2009, the other in 2010. If they had shown they were future major leaguers, they would crack a team's top 25.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) I'd probably agree. Just saying Jaye is mildly interesting as a prospect. According to Sickels, these guys aren't in Toronto's top 25, so while there is always a chance either could pan out, they probably won't, which indicates to me, salary dump.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:08 PM) Jaye has some value. The Sox and others likely passed on him because he was seeking and received an overslot bonus. Hopefully you know by now how utterly cheap the Sox are in the draft. Maybe the guy KW hired from Toronto has a boner for the guy, but KW did risk over $3 million on Frasor for at least a little while. I doubt the plan was to pick up his option and trade him before spring training, although I suppose its possible. Again, I'm not upset about this trade. Its really a salary dump and I don't think of Frasor as much of a difference maker, although he can be really good.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 12:57 PM) Because he just got a few more pitchers for him? Isn't it obvious that they felt they could trade him at some point and get some value out of him? There doesn't seem to be much "value". The 22 year old has been terrible and the other kid the Sox passed on drafting 17 times. I don't necessarily think this is a bad trade, it may enable the Sox to sign the Cuban or bring someone else on board, but the current return is really nothing and considering they could have let him walk for nothing, it makes picking up his option a curious decision, but as it works out, no harm, no foul.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) Jaye has no track record. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=jaye--001myl Webb has been awful http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=webb--001rob Either KW was counting on dumping some other salary he will be keeping or his planning on adding some.