Dick Allen

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 11:33 AM) ? Umm, the difference was the Sox already had Floyd on the roster. No one was angry that Jackson was acquired to pitch for us. People were upset about who was used to acquire him (as well as whose spot in the rotation he ultimately took). I don't think anyone disliked Edwin Jackson simply for being Edwin Jackson. However, were a team to offer us a pitcher as effective and with as many pre-arb years left as Dan Hudson when we traded him, I don't think you'd find many people who would complain. Umm, right back at you. A LOT of posters didn't like Jackson then and didn't like him ever with the Sox. The consensus on this board comparing Edwin Jackson and Gavin Floyd would have Floyd the far better pitcher even though Jackson is younger and has been getting better results recently. The fact is, if you think giving Jackson $10-12 million a year is ridiculous, you should think doing the same for Floyd would also be ridiculous, and it makes Floyd's $9.5 million option for 2013 not so much of a bargain as many consider. Its time to deal Gavin if you expect to get anything but the type of return you saw for Quentin.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 08:07 AM) Why would a team trade for Floyd if Jackson is still on the market? The only reason would be if Jackson's demands are outrageous, which would basically eliminate us from the conversation in the first place. So basically, we'd have to sign Jackson and then deal Floyd. I just don't know if I see KW attempting to do such a series of moves. Reinsdorf has never seemed like the type of owner to allow KW to temporarily go over budget to pull off something like this. I like the idea in theory, as I wouldn't mind another starter locked up long-term, and I actually like Jackson more than Floyd (not even including the young talent you'd get for Floyd). However, I think it's clear by the timing of these moves that KW has cleared salary to make a run at Cespedes. Seems like KW waited until to around the new year to make these moves, allowing for offers to improve until he actually needed the cash for Cespedes, who should be a free agent soon. What is interesting is Jackson is actually younger than Floyd and they have been pretty similar overall, Jackson may have even out performed him overall the last 3 seasons. So anyone pissed off the Sox traded for Jackson with a year and a half left on his contract, should probably want Floyd dealt immediately.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) Because he offered to resign and JR said "You can stay" and he didn't quit and throw a tantrum. He really didn't offer to resign. He offered to take another job in the organization. What he didn't say is whether or not he also offered to have his paycheck adjusted accordingly.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:56 PM) $80 million lump sum, $80 million. He said both of them. They don't have to pay a lump sum if the player is released. They pay according to the schedule that is on the contract.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 04:48 PM) If we pursue Cespedes than I am ok with it. I had no problem with the Teahan deal, but it seemed to signal KW's moves to try and somehow recover from some real bad decisions personnelwise on his part. Trading for Teahen was fine. It was the extension that most everyone could see was insane.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 04:08 PM) Don't forget also clearing nearly $10 million on Teahen. Esp. if we happen to sign that Cuban guy. That's a good point, although they never would have had to worry about clearing that money if the GM had been more competent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:00 PM) The all-mighty AA gave him third round money. He has to be good. Considering it was the same draft the Sox picked a guy who thought he was top 3 round talent in round 22, then had his big mouthed brother say the only reason no one drafted poor little Ozney before the 22nd round was because the Sox said they were drafting him, maybe the Blue Jays announced to the world they were taking this guy so that scared everyone else off. I never knew the draft worked that way until Oney enlightened me.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) Drop the draft pick rankings stuff. Both were guys who went way over slots in the later rounds. Jaye was paid like a third rounder. Then why didn't the Sox draft him in the 3rd or 4th round?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) Carlos Quentin might well have been worth less than Frasor, if you consider how much each of them are getting paid next year. Way off.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) Are we supposed to be bringing in elite talent for Quentin and Frasor? If you would have read what I posted, I'm not mad at this particular trade, but some are going to make these "prospects" out to be far more than they really are. For Quentin, I'm not upset they traded him, it was very obvious it would happen. I think the return is like this return. Nothing. I believe he should be worth a little more than that.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:34 PM) And if that 5% comes in then he cost controlled for 6 years. That's kind of the point of stocking up on arms. Stocking up on mediocre at best talent doesn't get you victories. With all the minor leaguers KW has acquired this winter, how much has the Sox farm system moved up ? I'm guessing not very far.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) Kenny needs to start raiding bad farm systems rather than the best in the game just so he can start getting some top 10-15 prospects. People are WAY too hung up on that s***. I don't care how good your farm system is, if a guy isn't in your top 20, he's not very elite, even if it makes him a top 5 or top 10 in the White Sox system.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Of course it's a salary dump. But Jaye is interesting. Not Nestor Molina interesting, but a projectable prep arm interesting. And not being in the top 25 doesn't tell the whole story considering the Blue Jays have the best farm system in baseball. He can be interesting like KW Jr. can be interesting or the Sox drafting Ozney Guillen could be interesting, but reality is this guy has probably less than a 5% chance of ever being as good of a major league pitcher as Jason Frasor is right now, and no one is too upset Jason was sent backing for nothing.

QUOTE (Cali @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:26 PM) Baseball is such a funny sport. You can have a MAJOR flaw in your game, like control issues as a pitcher -- which I'd say is the ONE thing most pitchers need to have to make it -- and still get drafted. Can you imagine a QB that overthrew his receivers all the time getting picked? On the flipside, there are plenty of "receivers" in the NFL, making millions who have a tough time catching the ball.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:21 PM) Both of them are down at A ball/recent draftees, so even if they wind up being great pitchers, they woulnd't be highly ranked yet. One guy was drafted in 2009, the other in 2010. If they had shown they were future major leaguers, they would crack a team's top 25.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) I'd probably agree. Just saying Jaye is mildly interesting as a prospect. According to Sickels, these guys aren't in Toronto's top 25, so while there is always a chance either could pan out, they probably won't, which indicates to me, salary dump.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:08 PM) Jaye has some value. The Sox and others likely passed on him because he was seeking and received an overslot bonus. Hopefully you know by now how utterly cheap the Sox are in the draft. Maybe the guy KW hired from Toronto has a boner for the guy, but KW did risk over $3 million on Frasor for at least a little while. I doubt the plan was to pick up his option and trade him before spring training, although I suppose its possible. Again, I'm not upset about this trade. Its really a salary dump and I don't think of Frasor as much of a difference maker, although he can be really good.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 12:57 PM) Because he just got a few more pitchers for him? Isn't it obvious that they felt they could trade him at some point and get some value out of him? There doesn't seem to be much "value". The 22 year old has been terrible and the other kid the Sox passed on drafting 17 times. I don't necessarily think this is a bad trade, it may enable the Sox to sign the Cuban or bring someone else on board, but the current return is really nothing and considering they could have let him walk for nothing, it makes picking up his option a curious decision, but as it works out, no harm, no foul.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) Jaye has no track record. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=jaye--001myl Webb has been awful http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=webb--001rob Either KW was counting on dumping some other salary he will be keeping or his planning on adding some.

I don't understand picking up the option if you are planning on dumping him for basically nothing. At the very least, you are risking Frasor getting injured in the interim. The only thing that makes sense is something has now presented itself and the Sox wanted the extra cash to spend on that. If not, its a real head scratcher picking up his option in the first place.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) It's bizarre to me that competing in 2012 is so important. The goal is sustained excellence. Its also bizarre to me that a guy like you who says all the Sox players are worth about nothing on the trade market still wants to get rid of them and lose 100 games a year so you can have better draft picks. Everyone wants to be the Tampa Bay Rays. They had 10 years straight of 90 loss seasons before they turned it around. 10 years averaging 95 losses a season. There is no one here, not J4L not the milkman and not you that has patience for that.

Quentin, besides 2008, was an under appreciated hitter. Chances are he'll come up lame with something but if he plays 130 games he's a 30 homer 100 RBI guy. Those guys aren't as plentiful as they used to be. He improved a little bit defensively last year as well. Viciedo should have been playing in 2010, they needed a spot for him. I'm just dissappointed the return for Carlos Quentin is a couple of guys who will eventually be 6 year minor league free agents.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 06:08 PM) KW on trade. San Diego came back and obviously put something on the table that attracted us,” White Sox GM Ken Williams said. “Both of these guys are guys that we can ultimately see, and we can see them very quickly here.” He said the same thing about Marquez and Nunez.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 04:33 PM) Not to mention how can the difference between something like say $40 or $50 million even make sense to someone who has lived their life on rations? The majority of the NBA and MLB and NFL have lived the majority of their lives "on rations".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 02:48 PM) If you look at the fangraphs world, last year he was worth about $12 million, so the surplus value if he repeated his 2011 season would be about $4 million. However, the 2 previous seasons, he was a negative value player, with his weak/injury riddle offense not offsetting his bad defense. Over the last 3 seasons, Carlos has averaged a $3.5 million player value, and he's getting paid $7-8 million. He had that 1 season, 2008, wehre he put up a $20 million value, but that was 4 seasons ago now. So he was worth $12 million last year, that's not bad, although fangraphs "worth" I have never taken too seriously. I think the only reason KW settled for this return is Viciedo. If he wasn't in the organization, KW would have held out for more or just kept Quentin.