Dick Allen

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:12 PM) At what point do you bench Rios? Definitely seems like he's taking his struggles at the plate to the field. I don't know if its his toe or what but the Oakland TV crew was blasting his effort running out a grounder the other day. He's been brutal.

QUOTE (OilCan @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:05 PM) Over/under on how many more games until Ozzie quits on this team? If they continue to lose, we will get the Ozzie seriously contemplated walking away story the day after the next off day.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) . No, that had absolutely nothing to do with why anybody was angry with it. The people who didn't like the trade thought we didn't get adequate value for 6 years of well below market value for a mid-rotation starter, while leaving us with almost completely nothing in the minors in terms of pitching talent. Anybody who mentioned the "greatness" of Hudson was only responding to the idea that Hudson was only some sort of "NL" pitcher even though he was having a better year than Jackson, against better competition, in a more hitter friendly park. Hudson's ERA was less than 1/3 of Jackson's in Arizona, yet somehow Jackson was the only one possibly capable of handling the AL all of a sudden, which is absolutely absurd. I'll agree to disagree on this issue, but my problem with this trade has nothing to do with how "great" Dan Hudson is. The point is that Hudson doesn't have to be better than Jackson for us to lose this trade. Even if he's only the 4-5 starter you pessimistically peg him as, and I agree he's not as good as he was last year, we could still lose this trade. The argument has nothing to with Hudson being better than Jackson. It has everything to do with money. Nothing to do with it? Hudson wasn't good with the Sox last year, Jackson was. If Hudson had the same numbers last year with AZ he has this season, there would have been no b****ing.

I still think the Sox will be OK, but they better start winning within their division. Their struggles against Minnesota have been well chronicled, but this is going to be the 8th straight loss to Detroit. As Hawk would say, that won't work.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 12:07 PM) This couldn't be more wrong. Who would claim him? Or who would give you something of value for him? He's a DH making a ton of money. I'm happy the Sox have him because they have a need, but there aren't a lot of teams looking to spend $50 million on a DH right now, especially if he isn't hitting at the moment, and is 61 for his last 289 .211 avg with 112 strikeouts.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 05:23 PM) Can I just blame Edwin Jackson? Anyway, it'd really help if the team would catch the ball. You could and that would be the correct thing to do, but if you tend to blame Walker when the Sox hitting goes south, you should blame Cooper when the pitching goes. Jackson didn't pitch very well but he didn't get any help from his defense today . Pierre made a terrible play even though he may have the error changed, and on the triple, while it would have been a good play, Rios took a route a cartoon character would have taken to that ball. These runs in the 6th were on Ozzie as it was quite obvious Jackson was out of gas.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 05:22 PM) Not a chance. Cora gets the job. Cooper has never managed at any level. According to Oney, Cora wouldn't accept the job.

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 05:20 PM) The scary thing is that it's possible they'll promote Cooper to manager if Ozzie gets let go. The bottom line is the Sox needed at least 10 runs to win yesterday and at least 9 runs to win today. There are more Walker vultures are out, but no Cooper. If Walker is solely responsible for the hitter's performances, shouldn't the pitchers' all be on Coop?

QUOTE (TitoMB @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 05:09 PM) "Both Walker and manager Ozzie Guillen have pointed to the fearsome starting pitching the White Sox have faced over the past week as a reason for the offensive cooling." NOTHING WE CAN DO! IT WAS JUST "FEARSOME" PITCHING! Haha, from top to bottom, this team is just a joke. What's Don Cooper's excuse? Fire Coop, he can't fix 'em.

QUOTE (Felix @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 11:04 AM) Fantastic analysis. That's basically exactly what we've been saying all along. Thank you for summarizing for the people who don't care to read. So based on efficiency ratings, Carlos Boozer just missed out being an All Defense player.

Getz has an OPS lower than Beckham's is currenty. Sweeney is hitting .222 with 1 RBI. I thought April Fool's Day was 3 weeks ago?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 11:29 AM) So in otherwords we can't make a deal because we might have to wait years to find out it didn't work out? Um, Ok. No. There's can't miss prospects and there's Matt LaPorta types. Guys like Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, Jeff Marquez, Jhonny Nunez aren't guys you acquire for John Danks. Even if they give you 5 or 6 of them. You have to get a consensus top 5 prospect IMO and someone who can and has shown they can do something at the major league level now, or you're just saving money, not helping your team get better in the future, hurting the present, which in the long run will eat away any savings from moving John Danks as fewer people will be interested in paying to see your product. Laporta was a top 25 guy. That's not nearly good enough. It needs to be one of those where KW asks for the moon because he knows he'll never get it, and winds up either getting it or something awfully close. Either that or hold on to Danks.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 08:34 AM) Hindsight makes that trade look completely different. At the time that was a huge haul. The problem is the view from hindsight is reality. What you think is a huge haul turns out to be not so huge most of the time. I think unless KW is just blown away by an obvious overpay, hanging on to Danks until the end is the play. The Sox aren't in a position to go into a rebuilding mode for a couple of years. Danks helps with winning immediately. You still get draft picks if you don't sign him, and if you don't sign him you will theoretically have that money to play with.

QUOTE (Andrew @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 10:44 PM) Tigers came out swinging first/second pitch...all night. It makes sense. Bad weather; a pitcher wants to control the count...they didn't want to let Buehrle do that to them so, bang him early and build momentum. We did the exact opposite. Tried to work counts and got burned. The lineup sucked. Morel and Beckham looked like the youngbloods they are. He did the same thing every damn time - fastball fastball fastball - all for strikes, then junk. They fell for it every time. And Dunn - for f***s sake.... It's like he's got a plastic hip on that right side. I still don't get the Sox hitting philosophy. It's like there's no plan, scouting, or "leadership" to assist them. I'm not talking about Greg Walker teaching people how to swing - but how about some f***ing strategy? He's seen Verlander how many times? I see other teams figure us out all the time, and it's like we either bomb by luck or fail massively. Frustrating team to watch and I can clearly see many of completely lost (talking about YOU Beckham, Morel, and Alexei) players and it's not their fault because who the hell can teach teach them better? The Silent Captain? Our stitched up DH? S***ty CF? Greg Walker? Christ, I feel sorry for them.... Yeah, I'd pin last night's loss on Greg Walker. When you only need to score 10 runs to win, there's definitely a problem with your hitting coach, especially considering how much Verlander sucks. Every other team in baseball has him figured out. This has to be the work of Walker. FWIW, I believe a pitcher wants to "control the count" no matter how the weather. As has been well documented, pitchers who throw first pitch strikes more often are far more successful than those who do not.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:21 AM) You're (the acquiring team) guaranteeing at least $12 million that Matt Thornton will get it back together again. How many teams out there could afford to take that risk? For a set-up guy? If you do manage to find a trading partner, you're not going to get much back in return, just a salary dump (which does have some value, except in putting a competitive team back out there as soon as possible, assuming the payroll would consequently take a huge hit again). If we traded him anytime in the last 2-3 seasons, with his bargain contract, we could have gotten back a good haul, but the devil's in the timing. Otherwise, we could have gotten something back for Jenks or Crede. If iamshack were a GM, he'd be one of KW's 5 favs on his cellphone.

C C Sabatthia who is far greater than any of the Sox pitchers in the final year of their contract, netted Matt LaPorta and Michael Brantley. You're better off keeping the draft picks. With Jackson and Buehrle off the books next year anyway, there is a built in firesale-like element with this roster.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:06 AM) Which was the essence of the problem with guys like Brian Anderson or even Getz K-ing like they were 30 homer guys. We can afford to have guys like Morel and Pierre and AJ, we're not going to have 7-8 twenty homer guys again in our line-up. However, if you start having Beckham, Rios and Ramirez K-ing 100+ times without making productive outs, the whole structure of the line-up becomes severely hamstrung. Outside of Quentin and Konerko, nobody's been hitting, so there are targets throughout the line-up for criticism. Not to parrot Rongey and DJ/Farmer and Hawk/Stone, but we've had a long string of facing some really good starting pitchers, since the beginning of the A's series. Farmer made an interesting comment about Morel not being the same since facing Jared Weaver, and Beckham and Rios both look totally lost. Dunn, you know, somehow ends up with his numbers, but hopefully he learns the league quickly and those are Albert Belle 1997 "meaningless" stats where the season's already been lost. I just find it ironic how strikeouts are not cared about anymore when BABIP is always used to determine if you've been lucky or unlucky. Batting Average for Balls Not In Play is .000. Some players would make a lot more money if they gave up trying to hit it 500 feet. Some would probably would hit more homers as well. How come people are still up in arms KW traded a stiff in Daniel Hudson, but the same people aren't upset Gio Gonzalez isn't in White Sox double knits?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:58 AM) The problem is that we'll never know if Hudson or McCarthy or anyone could have done the same things if they'd stayed here. Heck, you can add Kip Wells and Josh Fogg while you're at it. We only know what Jackson has done since the trade. I can't imagine a rotation of Danks-Floyd-Buehrle-Sale-Humber would be doing all that much better. You'd have to argue that Heath Bell would have been available straight up for Hudson AND that Sale could actually outpitch E-Jax this season. We can argue with Bell they would have had 3-4 less blown saves, but it's all murky conjecture. I don't think you can state either with anything close to certainty, especially the idea of Sale outpitching Jackson in 2011 as a starter. Heath Bell for Daniel Hudson straight up wasn't happening, at least last year at the deadline, and if KW made the move a year earlier people would have been complaining he traded for a closer when he already had one, and you don't trade your top prospect for a set up guy. BTW, Jose Contreras has 5 saves and an ERA of 0.00. I also can't believe I'm defending KW.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:42 AM) Oh come on now, Dick...There would be interest in Dunn, Jackson, Mark and Thornton. Konerko, you'd probably have to eat some salary, and possibly some with Dunn, but there would be some interest. Especially with Edwin/Mark/Thornton. The Indians traded Casey Blake to the Dodgers for Carlos Santana a few years ago. If you moved 6-7 of those players, including Danks/Floyd/Quentin, you'd likely bring in 15-20 young guys, with probably 5 of them being pretty high upside. I'm not going to argue that you could field a competitve team right away, but in a few years you could definitely look up and have a very nice young core. Jackson and Buehrle make a lot of money and are free agents at the end of the year. You aren't going to get much for them. Thornton hasn't been very good and just signed a decent sized extension, as my post stated if he doesn't turn it around, good luck getting anything for him. Konerko has full no trade protection and the teams he would play for the Angels, Dodgers, DBacks and possibly Padres can't or won't or don't have room to take his contract. You think someone wants Dunn's contract and is willing to give you prospects in exchange? Again, good luck with that. And besides if the Sox traded Dunn, Jackson, Buerhle, Thornton, Konerko, Danks, Floyd and Quentin and got the 5 high upside prospects and 10-15 other prospects you suggest, I would say 5 years is minimum until they are .500, possibly longer. Tropicana Field will look like Wrigley Field in the middle of July compared to USCF. The crying poor from 35th and Shields would actually be legit.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:35 AM) I completely agree with above and I think it comes from the fact that our farm is so s***ty, any decent looking prospects is viewed as next Babe Ruth. I think with sabermetrics becoming more and more mainstream, a lot of people are just looking at stats to determine how guys in AA and AAA project. Jeremy Reed and Jeff Abbott had minor league hitting stats that would project them to be perennial all stars. It didn't happen. Josh Fields was going to be a star because of how he lit up some pitchers in some meaningless games, then the league realized they didn't have to throw him strikes. The biggest jump isn't from A to AA or AA to AAA its from any level to MLB. Personally, I would like the Sox as an organization to put some value on making contact. Its not like they are developing 40 homer guys or 30 homer guys or even 20 homer guys right now, and I'm not emphasizing small ball or bunting. I know contact all around baseball has be de-valued for a long while, although I laugh that a strikeout is just an out like any other out. Its OK some guys strike out a lot, but they should be run producers who also walk a lot. Not every hit is a rocket. If Jordan Danks struck out 80 times instead of 150 and made contact those other 70 ABs some of those 70 would find a hole even if they were weakly hit.

A firesale rids you of your high priced guys. Who are the Sox going to dump where other teams will be willing to take the contract and actually give you something useful? Dunn? No. Rios? No. Konerko? No. AJP? No. Ramirez? No, the Sox won't trade him. Pierre? No. Buehrle? No. Jackson? Probably not. Thornton? No, unless he picks it up. The only guys you really could deal and get something decent for are Danks, Floyd and probably Quentin who seems to be back. but then you are still stuck with a roster full of guys with bloated contracts where you have to take the stance they will bounce back next season meaning guys like Danks, Floydand Quentin have to be replaced, not in 5 years, but immediately. That will cost any money you are saving and then some. I really doubt there's a firesale if the losing continues, although I truly believe the losing won't continue.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 07:00 PM) Please, give me a reason? Is it his numbers this season? Because then Chris Sale sucks too. Look, Hudson isn't a surefire Hall of Fame lock, but he should be a damn good number three starter for the Diamondbacks in the NL. I was indifferent towards the trade. I still think it was an overpay, but Jackson could very well be our ace this year so I accepted it. Threads like this are just to whip your dick out and yell "I WAS RIGHT!" and bait people into reacting. Right now, if I had one game, I'm taking E-Jax. If I'm planning for the future, it's Hudson. If we somehow resign EJax, get a good pitching prospect, or draft one with whatever picks we hopefully can get for him (I believe he is a Type-B FA right now) then we win the deal. If we don't, we lose, because Hudson represented value. It's like the Charlotte Bobcats pick for the Bulls, you could strike gold or you don't and Hudson looked like he had damn good value until we called him up, then got it back in Arizona. Had he bounced back like that here we'd have been talking about Chris Sale in the rotation and trading Hudson in a package for a closer, probably Heath Bell. I disagree about your thoughts about the thread. Last season we constantly heard how great Daniel Hudson was. How terrible of a trade it was because of what he did in AZ, even though Jackson was pretty much lights out with the Sox. As for Hudson's value, I would guess if KW is shopping him, and believe me I'm no KW fan, he probably has a better idea of that than we do, and if Hudson is 0-4 with high ERA in the NL, how will that translate to the AL? Its just another case of love for mediocre prospects on this board. Hudson may be a decent 4 or 5 starter but that's his ceiling. When Brandon Allen got traded the outrage was just as intense, and he can't beat out Russell Branyan 3 years later. There were posts that he would be an All Star. I believe people on Soxtalk have a way higher view of some White Sox prospects than the guys who get paid to evaluate.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 09:08 PM) He's obliterated the minor leagues. Why they don't play him eludes everyone. Well, everyone except those that can't admit Tony Pena is awful at his profession. Brandon Allen appears to be a AAAA player. He's been brutal in the majors. He makes Adam Dunn look like a contact hitter.

QUOTE (Knackattack @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 06:08 PM) Starting on time or do we have a delay? 10 minute delay 6:15 start

Here's a quote from the Sun Times from Ozzie: Me? No, I got a lot of money. I got a lot of work,’’ Guillen said before the Sox erupted with 10 hits, and two RBI apiece from Omar Vizquel, Carlos Quentin, Paul Konerko and A.J. Pierzynski. “If I’m not managing the White Sox, I will manage somewhere else. Maybe Mexico, Japan. I know I will manage in Venezuela. I can do a lot of great stuff in baseball. I might go to Fox. They want me.’’ Wasn't he crying about his extension last fall, giving some Latrell Sprewell-like comments?