Dick Allen

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 11:29 AM) So in otherwords we can't make a deal because we might have to wait years to find out it didn't work out? Um, Ok. No. There's can't miss prospects and there's Matt LaPorta types. Guys like Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, Jeff Marquez, Jhonny Nunez aren't guys you acquire for John Danks. Even if they give you 5 or 6 of them. You have to get a consensus top 5 prospect IMO and someone who can and has shown they can do something at the major league level now, or you're just saving money, not helping your team get better in the future, hurting the present, which in the long run will eat away any savings from moving John Danks as fewer people will be interested in paying to see your product. Laporta was a top 25 guy. That's not nearly good enough. It needs to be one of those where KW asks for the moon because he knows he'll never get it, and winds up either getting it or something awfully close. Either that or hold on to Danks.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 08:34 AM) Hindsight makes that trade look completely different. At the time that was a huge haul. The problem is the view from hindsight is reality. What you think is a huge haul turns out to be not so huge most of the time. I think unless KW is just blown away by an obvious overpay, hanging on to Danks until the end is the play. The Sox aren't in a position to go into a rebuilding mode for a couple of years. Danks helps with winning immediately. You still get draft picks if you don't sign him, and if you don't sign him you will theoretically have that money to play with.

QUOTE (Andrew @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 10:44 PM) Tigers came out swinging first/second pitch...all night. It makes sense. Bad weather; a pitcher wants to control the count...they didn't want to let Buehrle do that to them so, bang him early and build momentum. We did the exact opposite. Tried to work counts and got burned. The lineup sucked. Morel and Beckham looked like the youngbloods they are. He did the same thing every damn time - fastball fastball fastball - all for strikes, then junk. They fell for it every time. And Dunn - for f***s sake.... It's like he's got a plastic hip on that right side. I still don't get the Sox hitting philosophy. It's like there's no plan, scouting, or "leadership" to assist them. I'm not talking about Greg Walker teaching people how to swing - but how about some f***ing strategy? He's seen Verlander how many times? I see other teams figure us out all the time, and it's like we either bomb by luck or fail massively. Frustrating team to watch and I can clearly see many of completely lost (talking about YOU Beckham, Morel, and Alexei) players and it's not their fault because who the hell can teach teach them better? The Silent Captain? Our stitched up DH? S***ty CF? Greg Walker? Christ, I feel sorry for them.... Yeah, I'd pin last night's loss on Greg Walker. When you only need to score 10 runs to win, there's definitely a problem with your hitting coach, especially considering how much Verlander sucks. Every other team in baseball has him figured out. This has to be the work of Walker. FWIW, I believe a pitcher wants to "control the count" no matter how the weather. As has been well documented, pitchers who throw first pitch strikes more often are far more successful than those who do not.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:21 AM) You're (the acquiring team) guaranteeing at least $12 million that Matt Thornton will get it back together again. How many teams out there could afford to take that risk? For a set-up guy? If you do manage to find a trading partner, you're not going to get much back in return, just a salary dump (which does have some value, except in putting a competitive team back out there as soon as possible, assuming the payroll would consequently take a huge hit again). If we traded him anytime in the last 2-3 seasons, with his bargain contract, we could have gotten back a good haul, but the devil's in the timing. Otherwise, we could have gotten something back for Jenks or Crede. If iamshack were a GM, he'd be one of KW's 5 favs on his cellphone.

C C Sabatthia who is far greater than any of the Sox pitchers in the final year of their contract, netted Matt LaPorta and Michael Brantley. You're better off keeping the draft picks. With Jackson and Buehrle off the books next year anyway, there is a built in firesale-like element with this roster.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:06 AM) Which was the essence of the problem with guys like Brian Anderson or even Getz K-ing like they were 30 homer guys. We can afford to have guys like Morel and Pierre and AJ, we're not going to have 7-8 twenty homer guys again in our line-up. However, if you start having Beckham, Rios and Ramirez K-ing 100+ times without making productive outs, the whole structure of the line-up becomes severely hamstrung. Outside of Quentin and Konerko, nobody's been hitting, so there are targets throughout the line-up for criticism. Not to parrot Rongey and DJ/Farmer and Hawk/Stone, but we've had a long string of facing some really good starting pitchers, since the beginning of the A's series. Farmer made an interesting comment about Morel not being the same since facing Jared Weaver, and Beckham and Rios both look totally lost. Dunn, you know, somehow ends up with his numbers, but hopefully he learns the league quickly and those are Albert Belle 1997 "meaningless" stats where the season's already been lost. I just find it ironic how strikeouts are not cared about anymore when BABIP is always used to determine if you've been lucky or unlucky. Batting Average for Balls Not In Play is .000. Some players would make a lot more money if they gave up trying to hit it 500 feet. Some would probably would hit more homers as well. How come people are still up in arms KW traded a stiff in Daniel Hudson, but the same people aren't upset Gio Gonzalez isn't in White Sox double knits?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:58 AM) The problem is that we'll never know if Hudson or McCarthy or anyone could have done the same things if they'd stayed here. Heck, you can add Kip Wells and Josh Fogg while you're at it. We only know what Jackson has done since the trade. I can't imagine a rotation of Danks-Floyd-Buehrle-Sale-Humber would be doing all that much better. You'd have to argue that Heath Bell would have been available straight up for Hudson AND that Sale could actually outpitch E-Jax this season. We can argue with Bell they would have had 3-4 less blown saves, but it's all murky conjecture. I don't think you can state either with anything close to certainty, especially the idea of Sale outpitching Jackson in 2011 as a starter. Heath Bell for Daniel Hudson straight up wasn't happening, at least last year at the deadline, and if KW made the move a year earlier people would have been complaining he traded for a closer when he already had one, and you don't trade your top prospect for a set up guy. BTW, Jose Contreras has 5 saves and an ERA of 0.00. I also can't believe I'm defending KW.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:42 AM) Oh come on now, Dick...There would be interest in Dunn, Jackson, Mark and Thornton. Konerko, you'd probably have to eat some salary, and possibly some with Dunn, but there would be some interest. Especially with Edwin/Mark/Thornton. The Indians traded Casey Blake to the Dodgers for Carlos Santana a few years ago. If you moved 6-7 of those players, including Danks/Floyd/Quentin, you'd likely bring in 15-20 young guys, with probably 5 of them being pretty high upside. I'm not going to argue that you could field a competitve team right away, but in a few years you could definitely look up and have a very nice young core. Jackson and Buehrle make a lot of money and are free agents at the end of the year. You aren't going to get much for them. Thornton hasn't been very good and just signed a decent sized extension, as my post stated if he doesn't turn it around, good luck getting anything for him. Konerko has full no trade protection and the teams he would play for the Angels, Dodgers, DBacks and possibly Padres can't or won't or don't have room to take his contract. You think someone wants Dunn's contract and is willing to give you prospects in exchange? Again, good luck with that. And besides if the Sox traded Dunn, Jackson, Buerhle, Thornton, Konerko, Danks, Floyd and Quentin and got the 5 high upside prospects and 10-15 other prospects you suggest, I would say 5 years is minimum until they are .500, possibly longer. Tropicana Field will look like Wrigley Field in the middle of July compared to USCF. The crying poor from 35th and Shields would actually be legit.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:35 AM) I completely agree with above and I think it comes from the fact that our farm is so s***ty, any decent looking prospects is viewed as next Babe Ruth. I think with sabermetrics becoming more and more mainstream, a lot of people are just looking at stats to determine how guys in AA and AAA project. Jeremy Reed and Jeff Abbott had minor league hitting stats that would project them to be perennial all stars. It didn't happen. Josh Fields was going to be a star because of how he lit up some pitchers in some meaningless games, then the league realized they didn't have to throw him strikes. The biggest jump isn't from A to AA or AA to AAA its from any level to MLB. Personally, I would like the Sox as an organization to put some value on making contact. Its not like they are developing 40 homer guys or 30 homer guys or even 20 homer guys right now, and I'm not emphasizing small ball or bunting. I know contact all around baseball has be de-valued for a long while, although I laugh that a strikeout is just an out like any other out. Its OK some guys strike out a lot, but they should be run producers who also walk a lot. Not every hit is a rocket. If Jordan Danks struck out 80 times instead of 150 and made contact those other 70 ABs some of those 70 would find a hole even if they were weakly hit.

A firesale rids you of your high priced guys. Who are the Sox going to dump where other teams will be willing to take the contract and actually give you something useful? Dunn? No. Rios? No. Konerko? No. AJP? No. Ramirez? No, the Sox won't trade him. Pierre? No. Buehrle? No. Jackson? Probably not. Thornton? No, unless he picks it up. The only guys you really could deal and get something decent for are Danks, Floyd and probably Quentin who seems to be back. but then you are still stuck with a roster full of guys with bloated contracts where you have to take the stance they will bounce back next season meaning guys like Danks, Floydand Quentin have to be replaced, not in 5 years, but immediately. That will cost any money you are saving and then some. I really doubt there's a firesale if the losing continues, although I truly believe the losing won't continue.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 07:00 PM) Please, give me a reason? Is it his numbers this season? Because then Chris Sale sucks too. Look, Hudson isn't a surefire Hall of Fame lock, but he should be a damn good number three starter for the Diamondbacks in the NL. I was indifferent towards the trade. I still think it was an overpay, but Jackson could very well be our ace this year so I accepted it. Threads like this are just to whip your dick out and yell "I WAS RIGHT!" and bait people into reacting. Right now, if I had one game, I'm taking E-Jax. If I'm planning for the future, it's Hudson. If we somehow resign EJax, get a good pitching prospect, or draft one with whatever picks we hopefully can get for him (I believe he is a Type-B FA right now) then we win the deal. If we don't, we lose, because Hudson represented value. It's like the Charlotte Bobcats pick for the Bulls, you could strike gold or you don't and Hudson looked like he had damn good value until we called him up, then got it back in Arizona. Had he bounced back like that here we'd have been talking about Chris Sale in the rotation and trading Hudson in a package for a closer, probably Heath Bell. I disagree about your thoughts about the thread. Last season we constantly heard how great Daniel Hudson was. How terrible of a trade it was because of what he did in AZ, even though Jackson was pretty much lights out with the Sox. As for Hudson's value, I would guess if KW is shopping him, and believe me I'm no KW fan, he probably has a better idea of that than we do, and if Hudson is 0-4 with high ERA in the NL, how will that translate to the AL? Its just another case of love for mediocre prospects on this board. Hudson may be a decent 4 or 5 starter but that's his ceiling. When Brandon Allen got traded the outrage was just as intense, and he can't beat out Russell Branyan 3 years later. There were posts that he would be an All Star. I believe people on Soxtalk have a way higher view of some White Sox prospects than the guys who get paid to evaluate.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 09:08 PM) He's obliterated the minor leagues. Why they don't play him eludes everyone. Well, everyone except those that can't admit Tony Pena is awful at his profession. Brandon Allen appears to be a AAAA player. He's been brutal in the majors. He makes Adam Dunn look like a contact hitter.

QUOTE (Knackattack @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 06:08 PM) Starting on time or do we have a delay? 10 minute delay 6:15 start

Here's a quote from the Sun Times from Ozzie: Me? No, I got a lot of money. I got a lot of work,’’ Guillen said before the Sox erupted with 10 hits, and two RBI apiece from Omar Vizquel, Carlos Quentin, Paul Konerko and A.J. Pierzynski. “If I’m not managing the White Sox, I will manage somewhere else. Maybe Mexico, Japan. I know I will manage in Venezuela. I can do a lot of great stuff in baseball. I might go to Fox. They want me.’’ Wasn't he crying about his extension last fall, giving some Latrell Sprewell-like comments?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:12 PM) Wonder what the weather's like for Cleveland at Minnesota? Somehow, it's in the 70's or low 80's in southern Illinois/Kentucky. Who designs these schedules? Its getting close to May. I really don't know if you can blame the schedule makers now. If you're going to play 162 with several rounds of playoffs, and an additional round coming in 2012 when they add a wild card and the wild cards will battle in a play in round, length to be determined, unless you order teams to build retractable roofs, you're going to have plenty of weather issues. Its really been a brutal April in Chicago.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:02 PM) It would be more of a story if the players went on to succeed somewhere else in #4. Being able to not fix bad baseball players when no one else can, isn't a big negative in my book. That's been my argument for Greg Walker for years.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:26 PM) I blame it all on not keeping Rey Sanchez and Jose Rosado going down with injuries!!! Long live Dos Carlos (Febles and Beltran)!!! In actuality, White Sox and Royals fans are very similar. They pretty much refuse to support below average baseball...with the fact that KC probably still gets more "casual" fans even with atrocious teams for weekend games than the White Sox because of the difference in pricing points. With the White Sox having the fourth most expensive ticket price/parking, they simply HAVE to put a good product on the field. Too many Royals fans started to believe (that was the motto, if I remember, from Tony Pena) in that team and then it quickly fell apart after the All Star break and yet more hearts that had been suffering for 15 years were torn out. The other thing that really hurt was Buck and Teahen not panning out with the Royals. Of course, Buck's gone on to a huge contract since and luckily our GM took Mark Teahen off your hands. For that, you have Chris Getz's consistent .636/.637 OPS, Podsednik, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson. And we'll even throw in Wilson Betemit, who managed to kill the White Sox last year, of course. Him and that darned Callaspo. And Aviles. KC used to have the highest payroll in baseball back around 1990. They have been bad for so long after really being a model franchise.

QUOTE (High Mileage @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:12 PM) All very valid points. I think with most casual fans, they look at it as another Jermaine Dye-for-Neifi Perez or Johnny Damon-for-Angel Berroa. Trading a star player for somebody they've never heard of. With diehard fans, I think most of them feel the way that I do, that it sucks to lose a guy like Zack, but at the same time it had to be done because of his words and actions, obviously the jury is still out on that deal and will be for years. They knew they weren't going to be able to keep (afford) Sweeney, Dye, and Damon. Keeping all three was going to be a huge risk, as the farm system and the rest of the big league roster was pretty bare anyways. We also didn't have an actual owner at the time either. As far as Sweeney, the Royals were just bit by bad luck. The man had just made 3 consecutive All-Star Games and had hit .340/.417/.563, and it's hard to fault a guy for injuries. And I also hadn't thought about the weather, it's been cold, raining a lot (and very, very windy) here... Do you know the White Sox almost acquired Sweeney from KC as a catcher before he became the prolific hitter he became? They traded for Fordyce instead.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 05:04 PM) http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/allAvg For the sake of JR's "All In", this trend can't continue simply because the White Sox are last in all of MLB in terms of "average" attendance, counting home and road games. Of course, a big factor in that is our playing in Cleveland for 3 games and TB for 4, but it's still a bit surprising that we're dead last. OVERALL MLB Attendance, average of home and road games 2005 13th 2006 10th (year after World Series win) 2007 13th 2008 18th 2009 15th (after playoff appearance) 2010 21st 2011 30th (VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE) Also, the "holdover" effects of a World Series victory are generally predicted by sports marketing experts to extend out to five years. Yes, I always noticed they have been an average or below average draw on the road for years. Its really impossible to say why. I do believe the visiting team does get a small percentage of the gate.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 22, 2011 -> 11:06 AM) The greatest concern for baseball should be in Cleveland and Kansas City, where teams have done well but the city doesn’t seem to care. The Indians are 12-5, but the crowds are down 5.3 percent, thanks to four games where less than 10,000 fans showed up. Kansas City is 11-6 and has seen its crowds decline by a whopping 16.8 percent, including last Thursday against Seattle where 8,811 people were counted. And what in the world is going on in Chicago, where the loveable losers can’t even fill up Wrigley? The 16 percent drop through the Chicago Cubs’ first seven home games is hard to believe. For the record, so far, with the unbearable weather and 4 game road losing streak...the White Sox are off 1.5% so far. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlIA..._problem_042111 The weather is killing the Cubs as well.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 11:17 PM) lol. He started it. So I have to offer a rebuttal. If this thread goes 15 pages it's not my fault. First of all, why do you (not you lost) wait until he has a terrible start against an elite offense to make this thread? Hudson's ERA was 4.26 coming into today. Is that great? No. But we're still in the early stages of the season where one good game or bad game can drastically alter a pitcher's ERA. And for the love of the devil...Who has ever said that Hudson was great? Or that he's a HOF? Or that he's the next Greg Maddux? s*** is so annoying. My beef has always been giving up on a cheap/controllable starter for a guy that's a bigger name but not a better pitcher, whom there's a good chance of losing at the end of this year. Why is this so hard to comprehend? If we were the Braves and had 3-4 ready or damn near ready starting pitchers on the brink of the big leagues this wouldn't be a big deal. But the Braves we are not. Yet if it were any pitcher you didn't like, Hudson's current stats would be proof he is garbage. The way Hudson was written about since the Jackson trade, you would think he couldn't lose 4 games in his career.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 20, 2011 -> 10:09 PM) You kinda proved my point. Those first four were from 2006/2007. And Jenks wasn't a trade. KW has been awful since '08. I've been a big Masterson fan for a few years. He's been dynamite so far this year and reminds me of Brandon Webb. When your GB% is 60%+, you're going to be just fine. Martinez was expendable due to the Santana ripoff. I proved your point? You basically said no one comes close to Shapiro since mid 2006. I don't mind your overall pissed-offness (if thats a word) about the Sox, but your statement is just wrong, and waiver claims don't count but trades do?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 20, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) You're obviously being condescending. But no GM in the central had come close to pulling off as many shrewd (and in most cases straight ripoff) trades as Shapiro since mid-2006. 1: Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez 2: Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard 3: Carlos Santana for Casey Blake 4: Justin Masterson for Victor Martinez 5: Chris Perez for Mark Derosa Sure, the Sabathia trade isn't lookin' so hot. And it's still too early to truly judge the Lee trade from their side. But those are 5 terrific trades in a short amount of time. If he had the freedom to spend $100+ million, no telling what he could do. KW got Quentin for Carter Floyd for a broken down Garcia Danks for McCarthy Thornton for Borchard Jenks for nothing and he has the freedom to spend $100 million plus. Call Shipiro a genius but the Indians still suck, and I'm certainly not a KW fan.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 08:43 PM) I wouldn't say a heartbeat. But I'd definitely think about it. I'm not making excuses for Alex. But I feel he was mishandled prior to this year. On a team as bad as the Royals, he should've been given the chance to f*** up over and over and over again until he got it right. Sorta like Matt Wieters. So they should be able to f*** up over and over again and Beckham is a failure if he isn't a top 20 player as a 24 year old like you mentioned the other day? You have to realize players with little experience tend to struggle from time to time.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 19, 2011 -> 08:41 PM) It would have taken something special to screw up their performance in the post season. There were 2 situations that may have saved the 2005 Sox. The ball going through Tony G's legs and Iguchi homering next gave the Sox a win, and El Duque which was Ozzie's call escaping the mess Marte created. If either or both of those don't happen, maybe they don't make it past Boston and Ozzie and KW are both probably doing something different right now, and the Sox probably have a $65 million payroll tops.