Dick Allen

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 11, 2008 -> 08:14 AM) The team already told these guys who the first alternate was. Which was Wasserman and specifically asked Wasserman to stay. They gave the other guys a choice to stay or leave. Throwing, working out? No mention of that at all. And why would the coaches, during the playoffs, move their attention away from the guys on the roster to spend time with AAAA guys who would not be playing? Seems distracting to me. Tryouts in the middle of the playoffs? No Thanks. Cabrera will find a team. I guess that shows how important attitude is compared to ability. Interesting you would take these guys with the problems you outlined, if they stayed. I believe they have to prove it on the field, not in the locker room. But you fill your roster with guys who but who can pat asses and cheer their fool little heads off. I'll take the guys who can play. That's right. There are a lot of guys who have hung around a long time, not because of playing ability but because they are good guys who work hard, and are a good influence to the rest of the roster. As I've stated, I don't want any 3 of these guys to ever pitch for the White Sox again, and I would have said this before they blew off their teammates and instead of staying in Tampa, which would be the easier thing to do physically, they went home. As you said, there are plenty of bad attitudes in sports, but they guys you mentioned have something these 3 don't. A lot of abilility and a history of performance. If Manny Ramirez had Alex Cora's abillity and still was the Manny being Manny guy, he wouldn't be in the major leagues. You have to earn your stripes. The 3 who went home haven't. As far as getting their work in during the playoffs, that's really no problem. There's plenty of time. These guys get to the park sometimes 5 or 6 hours before the game starts.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 11, 2008 -> 08:46 AM) Again, How much better will Broadway have to pitch than someone else to make the team? If it comes down to him or Wassermann, a guy who stayed, I would say a lot better. I think KW probably has an idea to send Broadway away this offseason. Clubhouse chemistry is often mentioned today as well. Once Cabrera finds a new team, you will hear how disruptive he was to that particular aspect. Another thing to keep in mind as these guys left, is that teams can change their roster with eligible players every series. Tampa changed theirs. What if there happened to be an injury or 2 and the White Sox advanced to the ALCS? Guys that could have been throwing with their major league coaches and working out before games would have to come back from home if they were added to the roster. It was an idiotic move to make, especially considering the thin ice the 3 guys careers are basically on. MacDougal can't throw a strike. Logan has trouble with strikes and homers, and Broadway can't get AAA hitters out. If you think a guy like AJP will ever let these guys forget how they disrespected him and the rest of the White Sox by going home, I think you're sadly mistaken.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 11, 2008 -> 07:12 AM) My not getting paid is more to the point that "it's a business". You can talk about bonding and being a team mate, but IMHO that lasts until the next contract negotiations. Thomas came to the park during 2005, yet he still was not offered a new contract? Did KW not see him? He was loyal to his team mates for years, even accepting lower contracts to play for the Sox. He was arguably the greatest player to play for the Sox, AND flew in special to be with his teammates, and the following year was playing for Oakland. So we know how unimportant it is if you are a HoF caliber player to be around the team and bonding. Clearly these guys are not HoF material. So now let's look how important it will be for a AAAA player. Setting aside a few things, and for the sake of the discussion. I'll agree with all you said, now, let's put this in a practical manner. How much better will Broadway now have to pitch to make the team over someone who stayed? IF during Spring Training Logan or Broadway are putting up better numbers compared to guys who were in the clubhouse, will people here argue that they should spend more time in AAA and leave the roster spots to the guys that stayed? I've never heard an argument around here for keeping someone with less stats than someone playing better because they are better ass patters and cheer harder for the teammates. If that were the case, we would have a whole lot more Anderson love. Bottom line, by Spring Training, all this is forgotten. Guys are going to have to earn their roster spots by their play on the field, not by donning cheerleader outfits and patting asses in the clubhouse. Comparing these 3 with the Frank Thomas situation is absurd. Frank wasn't coming back no matter what. KW hates him, and he was hurt. These are guys that still need to establish their place. Going home doesn't help that. They are in the doghouse, and once you get in a White Sox doghouse, its difficult to get out. The White Sox are a baseball TEAM. Those 3 may not have been on the roster, but the organization which includes the other players still considered them part of the TEAM. Too bad the players didn't feel the same way. I have a feeling they will regret it.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 06:53 PM) We are talking about the same players who will say adios in a heartbeat for a bigger paycheck? Sorry, there are no loyalties in baseball anymore. If there were, Maggs and Thomas would still be on the team. So I can just as easily see the same greedy teammates who are there say, "hey it's a business and they aren't getting paid to be here, so they left, I can understand that". In fact, how often do we hear, "it's a business"? And look how much the fans truly appreciate the loyalty and support angle. Anderson was awesome in 2005. Man, he was on that top rail, leaping over and jumping and really supporting his teammates. Yet at any given time half the board wants him gone. I agree they probably should have stayed. But I don't agree it sent any message to their teammates. I don't think it helped BA in 2006 or 2008 that he hung around. And I don't recall any fans sticking up for him when he sucked because he was so loyal and supported his teammates. Some guys rise to the occasion and others fold. I believe you have to be in the game to learn which you are. I believe you need experience in the game to truly make a difference. There's where we disagree. I think if any of these guys are still with the White Sox next year, pretty much every player and maybe even more importantly, Ozzie and KW, won't forget they would rather go home than have to stay in a nice hotel, hang out with their teammates and watch a playoff game their team is playing on a huge television in the clubhouse. As far as your, "they aren't getting paid" argument, its the playoffs, every player is in the same boat. Their salaries have been paid. This argument isn't about the fans. As a huge fan, It wouldn't have bothered me if they told these 3 to go home after Charlotte's season ended, costing at least Broadway $65k which is what he was paid to sit around and not play for a month. It wouldn't have bothered me if the Sox told the 3 to go home after they won the division, but that isn't what happened. The most important opinions are of White Sox players and all reports say their departures were well-noted. Even Farmio and Stone, 2 guys who played MLB, travel with the Sox and would have a better perspective of this than you or me, were perplexed that going home would even be a consideration for these guys.

It will be sweet having Pat Foley back as well.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 05:54 PM) Why in the world would you think Swisher's value is a s***ty A ball pitcher? This is yet another case of Sox fans way overvaluing or undervaluing their own players. Think about it this way: if Swisher comes here and does what he did that one year in Oakland, and he performs to his ceiling, Swisher isn't available for anything less than the superstars on the market, like possibly Roy Halladay, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, and Jake Peavy. .. Your first paragraph is true. Your second is ridiculous and hypocritical. Talk about overvaluing a White Sox player.....

One other thing to keep in mind is Dye's option at the end of 2009. If he stays with the Sox and they exercise that option at that time, Dye will be a 5 and 10 man.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 10:42 AM) Yeah, the studied Javy and Thome . Who were the non roster guys on the bench in 2005? That would be really interesting to see how it affected their careers.We know Anderson was there every step of the way. Brian Anderson is one of the popularplayers on the team with his teammates. Like I said before, maybe it doesn't effect future performance, but it will have an effect on your status with teammates. Frankly, I don't think any of the 3 are guys that are good enough to have much of a career if they are perceived as anything but good guys and good teammates. Some mediocre to bad players hang around a long time just because of that. Personally, if I was a guy like Broadway, 24 or 25 years old, spending most of my time playing in the sticks, I would think working out with the team and hanging in the clubhouse for major league playoff games would be cool. There's plenty of time to hang out at home once the playoffs are over.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 06:12 AM) ''It was a lot of work, but you could see it gradually taking hold, especially when we had so many young players and then we started making deals,'' manager Joe Torre said of the Dodgers' transformation that took an entire season. ''Casey Blake really sort of changed our personality a little bit. And then of course Manny did more of that, and [pitcher Greg] Maddux, even though he didn't pitch a great deal for us, made a big difference. ''And all of a sudden this ballclub sort of blended together.'' Good argument for Casey Blake at 3B for us...pretty insightful reference from one of the best managers in the game. On the other side of the coin, the Indians really started playing well when they got rid of him and CC. Although I do think he's a better option than 162 games of watching Josh Fields strike out. I'm hoping the Sox go after Blalock. I think he can be had relatively cheaply, will make about $6 million next year, and may be ready to start hitting again. Get a couple of guys who can run in CF and 2B, move Ramirez to SS add a reliever or 2. Get rid of Vazquez. Sign a reclimation project or 2 ie Freddy or Bartolo, and the Sox will rule the Central.

464 and 461 were the measurements. The one hit against Minnesota went 461 supposedly. They were 1 and 2 in length at USCF in 2008.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Oct 9, 2008 -> 12:52 AM) That is what people often forget. Not just about Thome, but when it comes to player value. It's not always black and white. Players have different values to different teams. One of the players that has been brought up recently is Vazquez. One obvious destination is Milwaukee. Some argue that Vazquez doesn't have much value, but it's all relative. IMO, a starting pitcher signed to a reasonable dollar figure(11.5) for two years much more attractive to a team like the Brewers than the Red Sox, or even the Pirates. I say that because the Brewers are in a position with money to spend and a window to compete, but in a small market, long term, high priced deals can be franchise killers. A 2 year commitment to a above average, inning eating starter is a really solid fit. With the Red Sox, money really hasn't been a huge issue for the Saux, so more risks are able to be taken. With the Pirates, Vazquez basically has no value to them, as it will be at least 3+ years until they are a competitive ballclub, making Vazquez irrelevant. That was kind of drawn out for a short point, but it's late. I can't understand how $11.5 million a year is considered a "reasonable" dollar figure for a guy who probably will perform league average or slightly below like he has 3 of his 4 AL years and like he did his year in Arizona. There was some telling quotes from him during the playoffs when asked about winning big games. He didn't say he could win them, only that he hasn't been involved in many of them. The other thing to consider is the economy is probably going to get worse before it gets better, and that will trickle down to MLB eventually. Average to below average performers making $11.5 million aren't going to be highly sought after.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 01:54 PM) Great point and something I did not consider. Add that on the side of having 40 guys in the clubhouse. But think about this, does it detract from the cohesiveness of the 25 guys who were selected to be on the playoff team to try to bond 40 guys, including 15 who are not on the team for the playoffs and whose playoff roster spot they lost to? Which follows my point, the focus should be on winning today, not Spring training when a fourth of the playoff guys will not be around anyways. They are called up in September to gain some MLB experience, sell some tickets for teams that are out of it, gives their clubs a chance to see how they have developed. Lots of great reasons. Why doesn't every team max out on September call ups if the important thing is sitting in the locker room? Playoff teams especially tend to limit how many they call up. I'm not saying there aren't some damn good reasons for having every minor league player hanging out in the clubhouse. But I guess I'm the only one that sees a cost in having so many unfamiliar and extraneous faces in the clubhouse. The faces aren't unfamiliar. MacDougal has spent a lot of time with the guys on the team, so has Logan. Even Broadway with spring training and his call-ups. Going home was obviously their choice, and maybe you're right, they had nothing to gain by hanging around. I think they had a lot to gain if they approached it correctly. I don't think guys like Wassermann and Burgeoius regret hanging around, and they will score points next spring.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 11:36 AM) Why do they go back there? This goes to the point I was making. I do not believe Dye rushes into the clubhouse during the game thinking where is Logan and Broadway? I need a crowd back here, there are not enough people on the bench! Let's have a party! Having an extra dozen or so guys just hanging around has the potential to distract from the goal at hand. I see some value to (for example)Logan, but none to Buerhle. If its such a distraction, why are guys called up every September? Those 3 should have hung around, but they were probably too big league to do so. Whatever. Their careers will be really short and they will regret their decision.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 11:36 AM) Sorry, I am not making my point clearly. I do see the benefit for the AAAA players and whatever team they may be on down the road. I think it is over rated, but would not dismiss it. ---->>> I also see the bigger benefit of not distracting the MLB roster players from the goal of winning. So the argument is whether this advances the team towards their goal of winning or away. I see potential distractions and zero benefit towards the goal of winning. Getting AAAA players clubhouse couch time is so far down my list of what is important during the playoffs, it almost doesn't make the list. I agree it would be nice for Broadway, and if he ever is on a playoff roster there may be some value. The clubhouse couch time is just during the game, and a lot of players go back to the clubhouse during the game.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Oct 7, 2008 -> 06:11 AM) I'm wondering which non roster players were in the dugout in 2005 that were on the roster here in 2008 and how they fared in 2006 etc. BA is the only one I thought of, and his 2006 kind of sucked. I don't think being with the team during their postseason run would have any effect on their performance next season, but I think it would have an effect on how other players view you as a teammate. The guys that went home aren't good enough to stick around long if they are thought of as bad teammates and quitters. I think being there would and should be an honor for these guys, especially because none have ever experienced a playoff game at the major league level. You can work out with your teammates before the game, its just gametime when you can't be in the dugout. I just find it wrong that any player would rather just go home than experience that. I hope the rest of their "teammates" take notice and when it gets to be time to split up the extra cash they get for winning the division and competing in the postseason, they show these guys just how much they noticed.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 3, 2008 -> 02:47 PM) Quentin and Wassermann were both at the game. I'd go with Crede, MacDougal, H Ramirez and Logan. The Sun-Times named 3, MacDougal, Logan and Broadway.

KW's plan B's C's and D's have actually been better than his plan A's. Bottom line is, as much as I have criticized him, and as much as I think his God-like status with some is ridiculous, his team is in the playoffs, and a team that looked like it was going to be bad for a long time has reason to believe the team should be pretty good for several more years.

Game 2 of the 2005 WS. Game 1 was sweet, but Game 2 with my dad was the best. We thought it was the greatest White Sox game of all time at that point.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 08:56 PM) Maybe I just remember the days when the Sox didnt even win 1 game from their 5th starter and now we have people who are to good for Javy. Does anyone remember the seasons before 2005 and the parade of garbage that used to pitch for the Sox. I think Javy's performances remind people every day of that garbage. One difference, the Sox weren't paying that garbage $11.5 million a year like they are the current collection of rubbish.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 06:35 PM) Not defending him. Just Im not sure what is worse, giving up 6 runs or not getting in runs from 3rd when you have less than 2 outs, or making horrendous fielding plays. Javy didnt pitch bad until he started walking players at that point its all on him. But early in the game he was pitching to contact and just getting absolutely no help from his defense. Hell even the 2 hrs to Longoria most would prefer to walks and big innings, it just was a bad game. Im just tired of it being only Javy who takes the blame, not to mention all of the personal hate attacks that people make on him. Hes just a f***ing baseball player and people are wishing that he got hurt etc. Its just annoying as hell cause ive always been taught that you support the people who struggle and you pick up your weakest link. You dont throw them under the bus and disown them, at least that is my position on how a team acts. I mean this isnt the first player, Judy Garland, Gavin Floyd, all have been attacked like Javy. Now that Gavin has turned around many of them are all of a sudden huge supporters, I just dont get that. I support the Sox players from the day they join the Sox until the day they leave the Sox. Maybe they arent the best, maybe they lose, but every time they go out Im hoping that they win and every time they do bad, Im hoping that the next time they turn it around. Just gets lame to hear all the hate over and over again. Support is one thing. To just blame everything that is on him on something else is another. He gave up 6 runs. His last 4 starts he's pitches 16 1/3 giving up 25 runs. To expect your offense to get you 7, which is the least it would take if the bullpen shut out TB like they did, in a playoff game, is insane. I don't wish him dead or hurt, that is nuts, you're right, in the end its just a baseball game. I wish him on the mound against the White Sox in a big game.

Javy showed what is he today. Again. A dismal performance. $11.5 million a year loser is what he is. I think Ozzie should put him in the bullpen. Maybe if he only had to get a few outs he would just try to blow people away.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:37 PM) Sox dont pay all of Javy's contract. Yankees pay some, AZ pay some. But I dont know the exact numbers, im pretty sure that Kalapse knows them haha Really? KW is a genius. He has other teams paying parts of contracts that he gives to players.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 03:30 PM) Schilling sat on the bench this year for the Red Sox making 8mil. As you said Lilly makes 8mil. Dice-K was paid much more than the Sox have paid to Javy. Jon Garland makes as much as Javy. So 3 of the 4 Al playoff teams pay as much or more to a Javy style player (Schilling, Javy, Garland) What are you talking about? Javy makes $11.5 million. I think you need an math refresher course.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 02:19 PM) Most playoff teams pay their 4 starter comparable to Javy Vazquez or have worse players who are getting paid more. This isnt about "average" teams, this is about playing the BEST teams. Javy would be a 4 if not 5 on most of the playoff teams, just because some one paid him money doesnt make him good. Maybe we can get Driefort, I hear he got paid a ton he must be amazing. In the AL Boston doesn't have any pitcher including Beckett who gets paid as much as Javy. The Angels have 1, in Jon Garland, and Tampa has no pitcher making Dotel money. Lilly is the Cubs #4 and he makes 8million this year, so who are you talking about?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 2, 2008 -> 03:10 PM) I dont even understand how some of you consider yourselves Sox fans. Javy is the Sox 4th starter, due to having to play the last few weeks we could not set the rotation. Javy is not supposed to shut down the other team, he is supposed to keep the Sox in the game so that we have a chance to win. Anyone expecting more is just setting themselves up for failure. If this was any other pitcher people would be talking about how easy grounders were getting through our infield, how we let pop ups drop, how the Sox couldnt get a double play. but since its Javy you all just want to kick him around. f*** that, Im not going to sit here and say hes good, but I at least respect the effort that he has given to the Sox. He's supposed to more than a #4 starter. The average #4 starter does not get paid anywhere near what Javy gets paid. He pitched well in 2007 when the team was awful. Many on here said that is what he would be. He was 12-16 below .500. His ERA was 4.66 higher than league average. He implodes in game 1. He isn't even an average performer. He sucks. A waste of money. Yet because he strikes people out more often than most some still love him and find excuse after excuse for all his poor performances. His last 4 starts he hasn't even pitched 5 innings. There is no defense. He didn't perform.