Dick Allen

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:57 PM) The point is you have to let them get regular starts to actually learn anything. Not sporadic starts from season to season. In Greg Maddux's first 180 innings as a major league starter, he had an ERA of about 5.5. And his last 150 innings were worse than his first 30 innings. In Jeremy Bonderman's first 360 innings, he had an ERA of about 5.3. In John Smoltz's first 64 innings as a starter, his ERA was 5.48. In Tom Glavine's first 245 innings, he had an ERA at about 4.8. In his first 50 innings, his ERA was 5.54. The point is, young pitchers struggle all the time. And while Floyd has had 100 innings, he's never had consistent innings. He needs to be given the rest of the season to take his lumps, figure some things out, and see if he has a future at this. Well, then if you say Floyd is Maddux, or Glavin, or Smoltz then by all means start the rest of the year. I personally find him to be more like a better built Carlos Castillo. Its better off he doesn't take the mound.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:42 PM) We have a far more significant amount of money invested in Mac then we do in Haegar at this point. We are not the Yankees. Or the Red Sox. It is imperative that we try to get the players we have invested money in to try and get the ship righted. Especially considering the talent Mac has shown in the past compared to Haeger. We have a lot more invested in Contreras than Floyd, but you think throwing Floyd out there is a good idea.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:40 PM) But John's ERA is getting worse from where it was 3 months ago...he has undoubtedly been worse in the last few months than he was in the first few. He only appears to be regressing, and yet he is getting older by the day. I suppose we should give up on him. There is an undoubted learning curve for 99% of major league pitchers, and many simply just need to take their lumps and learn before they can be successful. Floyd has always been in a position where he was pitching for a team in contention, which cannot allow him to get consistent starts and take his lumps. Now, he finally has a chance to get those starts without any real disadvantage to his team because it is out of the race anyways. Just let him do it already. 4 starts in 2004 3.49 era 4 starts in 2005 10.04 era 11 starts in 2006 7.29 era 2 starts in 2007 10.04 era Looks like he's not learning much. The curve is going the wrong way As far as Danks, this is predicable. They had some stats on the YES feed from last nights game, and his BAA goes up drastically the more hitters have seen him. He'll have to make some adjustments, but his numbers are still better than I thought they would be. If the Sox were in contention, he'd probably be in Charlotte.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:38 PM) BUt you are arguing that Floyd not haeger should be in the rotation? Or are you saying haeger should be a rp instead of Macdougal? Whichi argument are you making I'm saying Haeger is more deserving of taking Contreras' turn in the rotation than Floyd. I'm not too certain he's actually deserving, just more than Gavin Floyd.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) Macdougal is a rp. Haeger is a sp. Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster. Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes. What about a guy like Floyd who walks his fair share and gets hit hard.?

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:36 PM) Macdougal is a rp. Haeger is a sp. Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster. Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes. Haeger has been used strickly in relief for the White Sox this season.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:34 PM) Seriously, are you related to Haeger or something? This is getting ridiculous. MacDougal has done things in his major league career that Charlie has NEVER come close to doing. I'm responding to the post that Haegar's control problems are why he went back to Charlotte. He's being replaced with a guy who can't throw a strike to save his life this year. Its also not like Floyd is pinpoint.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) His poor starts when he was with Philadelphia came when he was 22 and 23....As if a pitcher never struggled at that age. Look at John Danks last 7 starts or so. His ERA during that span is every bit as poor as Floyd's was in a comparable number of innings with Philadelphia, at darn near the same age during 05' and 06'. I am not claiming that Floyd will turn into a great pitcher, in fact, I don't care much for him either. But it would be irresponsible, with where we are as a team ths year, to not give him the opportunity to show us what he is capable of. There simply is no other alternative. If we had Justin Verlander in AAA being blocked by Floyd, I would be in full agreement with you. But we don't. About 6 weeks ago, I remember you being excited about Floyd's progress in Charlotte like several other posters. You've completely changed your mind after two starts? You don't find that shortsighted and impatient? I have never been excited about Gavin Floyd. I did like the trade because I was of the opinion Garcia would be bad and the money saved would be nice and I am a huge Gio fan. I hoped Floyd would be as good as many thought 3 years ago, but was resigned to the bust most now think he really is. Floyd's ERA isn't getting better from when he was 22 or 23, its going higher. If you want to compare Danks to that, you're doing Jon a big disservice.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:29 PM) Because Haeger has terrible control problems. Atleast Floyd doesnt walk AAA batters. Its pretty simple, if haeger wants to pitch at the MLB level he cant be walking so many batters. And he gets replaced on the roster with MacDougal who is averaging a walk an inning this season. Please.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:24 PM) I say we throw anyone who can't ever improve into a barge and ship them off to some remote island off the Falklands. I'm talking baseball players, football players, any athlete. In fact, let's just throw EVERYONE that we think can NEVER improve into a giant woodchipper. You people are incredible. 100+ innings?!?! That's nothing. Danks has gotten a better shot in 1 year than Gavin has in his career. I'm not saying he WILL improve, but for the love of all that's holy, give him a chance. Gio/Egbert/DLS are all still young. You have a better chance of ruining their confidence than a 24 year old who probably realizes this is his LAST chance. Fine. How come Haeger isn't getting a shot? He has only about 30 innings in his career. If everyone who has been as bad as Floyd has been for as long as Floyd has been get the same opportunities, I would have no problem. Do you really think he would get this chance if KW had acquired him for some minor league garbage?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:19 PM) Why should we know that Floyd cannot pitch in the major leagues but that Wily Mo Pena can play in the major leagues? I cannot believe you are going off of the last 14 innings with this franchise as some sort of indicator that the kid is washed up. Especially considering he pitched against a team his first start hat scored 11 runs off of Jon a few hours before. That is the equivalent of trading for WMP, giving him 30 at bats, and then deciding that he truly did stink and never allowing him to play again. You are not only raking Kenny over the coals for acquiring Floyd, but you were just 3 days ago calling for him to make the exact same kind of deal. Talk about hypocritical. And saving money? That was not a major concern considering that Dye will bring back some compensation as opposed to what was being offered. With Floyd, I am also figuring in his 111 innings with Philadelphia and his career 5.24 ERA in AAA. Saving a couple million on Dye would have been big considering KW is paying the entire bullpen $3.6 million this year. Every dollar saved this year could be used next season. Sandwich picks don't excite me.

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:19 PM) Garland went 1.1IP and gave up 8ER on 9 hits today. I guess he sucks too huh? This is the best post in history.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) You wanted to TRADE for a guy and put him out there and "see if he is worthy." Yet you won't give the guy we ALREADY have that chance. Talk about hypocritical. It's the same damn thing. Potential. The trade for me would have saved money. The added benefit would be to see if the guy you get back can play. Kind of like whats going on with Richar. We should know right now that Floyd cannot pitch in the major leagues.

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) No, don't you get it? Because his ERA was over 7, he can never, ever turn into a major league pitcher and we need to cut him right now. The cutoff is apparently set at an ERA of 6. Give me a break... 8 homers in 14 innings. A star is born..............

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) Why don't you address the point that he cannot throw the only pitch he is physically capable of throwing instead of taking one sentence out of context and conveniently eliminating the sentences that immediately followed it? As far as I can see, Floyd can do nothing, but you think because KW has you in a trance that he is capable of good things. Haeger was just as good in Charlotte last year as Floyd was this. His minor league stats are just as good. His major league stats are much better, but KW didn't trade a big name and go out on a limb and call him one of the top prospects in baseball. So he's in Charlotte and Floyd is getting ready to get beat up again in Detroit. I'm sure there will be plenty of excuses. He's been in the bullpen for a week or 2 so I'm sure it will be unfair to Gavin to expect much.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:58 PM) The sample size is not enough to show if he is improving or not. For all the people, including yourself, who argued that WMP just needs "everyday at bats" to prove he can hit like he did for the Reds in 05', I don't see how you can say that Floyd has been given a fair shot to show what he is capable of. I never said that. I said put him out there the rest of the year (WMP) and see if he is worthy. You cannot say he has been as awful as Floyd his major league career, and he also has an excuse as he didn't get the minor league time Floyd has had.

QUOTE(Soxbadger @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:57 PM) How is 6.46 for Garland uncomparable? You also fail to mention in Gavin's first stint in the big leagues he posted a 3.5 era in 30 ip. And how is Halladay not comparable? So he pitched good his first season and then tanked. That seems exactly like what is happening with Gavin, except for he was not given 150 ip in his first season because he was called up later in the year. So if Gavin had pitched 3.5 era for 100 ip in his first season, then tanked the next 2, you would be saying hes fixable? But because he only pitched 30, and then has been tooled around, he is unfixable? Not to mention Gavin has not finished the season, if he puts up a few good outings his era will be around 5-6, exactly like the players I posted. But thanks for creating a 100 ip rule, that seems to have no rhyme or reason. Garland's is not comparable because he was 20 years old at the time. Floyd has a 5.24 career ERA in parts of 4 seasons in AAA. He's not good.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:56 PM) No, I am not joking. The difference in an ERA of 6 and an ERA of 7 is like the difference between hitting .112 or .147. It doesn't matter because it's not close to good enough. You have absolutely no point whatsoever. Pitchers either get the job done or they don't. Historically, anything over 5 is not good enough. Yet there are plenty of pitchers Gavin's age who struggled initially and managed to turn into solid major league pitchers. But Charlie Haeger, 9 months younger, is what he is.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:51 PM) What's the damn difference between an ERA over 6 and an ERA over 7? The fact is, Floyd has not been improving since his debut in 2004 when he gave up 1 run in 7 innings. He's getting worse.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:36 PM) I said Haeger was a knuckleball pitcher whose knuckleball isn't knuckling right now on a team without a catcher who can catch it. There's a difference between the two: Haeger has 1 pitch. A knuckleball. Which isn't dancing right now, and on the few occasions that it does, he cannot make it appear as though it is a strike. If that pitch does not work, he has absolutely no chance of being successful. He is worthless. At least Gavin Floyd has the physical capabilities to actually have success at this level. Granted, he has not. But he's pitched FOURTEEN innings for this organization. There is not even an argument. None. Whatsoever. He's going to get his chance, it's the only prudent course of action. You don't trade for a guy and then not ever give him his chance. There's just no logic to it whatsoever. You said Haeger is what he is. This last post seems to be backing off it. 14 worthless innings for this organization and 111 for the team that drafted him 4th overall, gave him a big bonus and spent money developing him. They saw enough, and if KW hadn't got him in a trade for a big name, 14 innings would be more than enough for him. If the Cubs were floundering like the Sox right now and they had Floyd in the exact same scenerio, everyone here would be laughing wondering what they were thinking.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:56 PM) 100+ innings of sucking at MLB-level baseball? Be fair. Gavin's 5.24 career ERA in AAA suggests he will be a star. KW really pulled a coup getting him.

The White Sox have pretty much owned Clemens this century.

QUOTE(Chopper2Hopper @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:57 PM) 8-0, wow. Wouldn't it have been nice if Clemens retired after walking off the field hurt in the World Series? Like a cockroach, though, he just won't die. If someone wanted to pay me to play some more what they are paying Roger, I'd be right where he is right now.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:54 PM) J Owens CF A Cintron 3B J Thome DH P Konerko 1B A Pierzynski C J Dye RF D Erstad LF J Uribe SS D Richar 2B Sox up 5-0 in the 2nd, bunch of singles and a double from Dye. Thome just knocked in 2 with a single the other way The Yankees are spending just as much as for 4 months of Rocket crap as the Sox will spend on the Count the next 2 seasons.

QUOTE(BaseballNick @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 12:05 PM) What is it exactly that you're basing this on? Those are just ridiculous statements to make. Floyd has not pitched well at all since being called up, but he's made two starts this year; one against a red-hot Twins team that tore apart our whole pitching staff, and one against the Tigers, who are arguably the best team in baseball, in a game that we actually came back to win. So you are saying he can't pitch against teams the Sox will play 38 times a season. That's scary. What about Gavin's failures before 2007? BTW the only reason the Sox won that game was because Floyd was out of the game. The beleaguered bullpen was able to shut them down, but Gavin had the excuse of pitching against a great team.