Dick Allen

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 01:33 PM) You've been saying this forever now, and so I am just curious. How do you think good bullpens are built? Do you think they are built by signing expensive guys that performed well last year? Do you think that is how solid bullpens are built? The vast majority of effective pitchers coming out of the pen are closers. The rest are so volatile from year to year that they end up being disasters for the club over the life of the deal. The very few that are relatively inexpensive and consistently effective are so valuable to their clubs that you can't get them unless you are willing to give up a boatload of talent in return. I'm just curious. How do you believe a good bullpen can/should be assembled other than trying to find quality young arms? Lets go back to when the Sox had some reliable guys in the bullpen. Flash Gordon, Hermanson, Shingo for a while, Vizcaino, Politte the 1 season, they all were making well above minimum. We've seen KW and apparently your method of building a bullpen in 2006 and 2007 now. If you can't see it doesn't work to throw a bunch of crap out there by now, especially when you have no one in the minor leagues you can plug in, than you will never see it. The entire bullpen is being paid $3.6 million this season. The White Sox payroll is $109 million which includes the money they are being given by other clubs. They have budgeted 3% of their payroll to the entire bullpen, and they wonder why they suck. Hawk made a comment last night that shocked me, but I sort of agree with it now. He said its getting to the point where its more important to have a dominant bullpen than a dominant rotation. The Sox spend all this money on the rotation and what kind of consistent results have they gotten from them?

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 01:19 PM) you've moved from insightful to humorous. It's too bad. Tiger fans root for the Sox to lose, as do Twins fans. You're in good company. I don't have to root for the Sox to lose. They're just not very good. I'd love to see a miraculous resurgence and I will continue to root for it but I wouldn't bet a nickel on it happening. If they do turn it around (your nightmare) then I would be most happy. And something tells me you would be too, despite your statements to the contrary. Its the middle ground thats maddening. I'm sure fathom would be as happy as anyone here if the Sox turned it around and made the playoffs. But if they turned it around and missed by 5 games, it would have been a wasted opportunity to get something for someone you are going to lose. These moral victories are old. Last year when the Sox came back against Houston I think and scored 8 runs or something like that in the 9th only to lose in extra innings, people were giddy. They lost. Its black and white, no gray area. Playoffs or bust. KW would be a fool to hold onto Buerhle, Dye and whoever else isn't in the plans just to pad a win total that won't be good enough to play on after 162 games.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 01:24 PM) Anything in the city is going to be expensive for Sox stuff, but you will definately find the best selection at Grandstand, which is west of the ballpark on 35th street. personally I wouldn't recommend that you go to the taste on the 4th, that late in the day. It is going to be SOOO crowded. Like others have said, there will literally be one million people in Grant Park and the surrounding areas. it is miserable. Not to mention, you could go to one of the restaurants thats at the Taste, sit in air conditioning, actually be served, have breathing room and have it be cheaper. The Taste of Chicago has long been my enemy so I am a little prejudice, but how can people enjoy it when its that crowded?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 01:00 PM) Fixed Half of this team's payroll was devoted to its starting rotation last year. Is that unreasonable as well? Yes. Especially if it means you are going to have to have a bunch of guys making minimum in the bullpen. You pay all this money to the starters then turn it over to the likes of Bukvich or Prinz or Aaardsma or Masset or whoever. Its like giving your 16 year old who just got his license yesterday, the keys to your Bentley. I still think a guy who is going to probably be below .500 with an ERA in the mid to high 4's is a #5 starter on a contending team.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 01:14 PM) I'd rather not see the Sox deal for Collaspo. But I'd also like to think that the Sox aren't projecting Richar as their starting 2B in 2008. Isn't Collaspo the wife beater?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 12:39 PM) Well, yes. My point was that we're pretty much at our ceiling right now. How could Javy Vazquez's $11.5 million salary be reasonable on a team whose ceiling for the team is $96 million? He's a #5 starter. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 12:31 PM) We thought we did receive ml-ready talent in Gavin Floyd. So maybe they were off a few months... Or maybe they were just off.

Giving Vazquez a 3 year extension before the final year of his previous contract was the equivalent of a 4 year deal. Buerhle's been a much better pitcher unless you base everything on what you see in the bullpen warming up. The policy has been fine, its worked out time and time again. I do remember JR stating the one guy they would have gone longer on was Alex Fernandez because of his mechanics. That wouldn't have worked either. It depends on what Buerhle wants per season, but I think I would take a chance on a 5 year with him if I was KW. He doesn't throw hard, and doesn't walk guys. I think he's as good of bet as anyone to be able to make it through without catasrophe

If what he said yesterday was just a smokescreen, it would be pretty well known if he was shopping Buerhle. He obviously has not yet. He should go public and try and make it a bidding war. Talk it up, its the way the Sox will be able to cash in at the end.

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 10:29 AM) Didn't Jerry approach Mark and ask him that before he signed somewhere this off season that he give the sox a chance to consider matching the offer? And Mark agreed to it, IIRC. Yes, but that's just a PR move. Buerhle will get 5 years minimum. The Sox aren't going 5 years. Its the "oh well we tried, we just couldn't match it" routine. There were reports the Sox were pissed at Dye because he didn't appear to be attached to the White Sox, and appeared that he wasn't going to give them a big discount. This was after KW said he wanted the Sox free agents to explore the market, that they owed it to their families. I would be absolutely shocked if either are back next year, and I think JR, KW, MB, JD and OG feel the same way.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 08:43 AM) Wow their ace's ERA is a quarter run higher than our 5th starter, and that is without any AL/NL differential factored in There's been a lot of talk about Dontrelle not being what he used to be.

If any recalls, KW called Thome, Konerko and Dye in at about the deadline point last year and asked them if they needed any more help. They said no, and we know how that turned out. KW is not being a GM by doing this IMO. The team will fail and he'll look like a great guy going to his players and discussing it, but in reality he's a fool who if he wanted to win would have done something about it a while ago.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 07:16 PM) That quote is so f***ing stupid. BTW -- why is Konerko sitting in on these meetings? What do you expect the player to say -- "Yeah, Kenny, it's probably your best bet to just pack in the season and trade everybody." I know Konerko has a NTC, but there are some contending teams out there who could really use a first baseman. I'm not necessarily advocating a Konerko trade, but if Detroit, the Yankees or the Angels (with Kotchman's concussion) came calling, Kenny should be fielding answers. It's wierd -- sad, even? -- to think that Konerko still has three years left on his deal after this year. Grady Sizemore hit a leadoff homer on opening day.That sucked, and is what he's referring to. Things haven't gotten much better since. As far as Konerko's contract, I think they know its probably too long when they agreed to it. But they had to give it to him. He came up huge in the playoffs, and had a big year last year. He'll still hit, at least for a couple of years. Letting him walk after 2005 would have been a PR disaster for the team, and would have taken some of the shine off the championship trophy.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 07:13 PM) At least we can say that this season sucked from the very first batter. You can put it on the board. It is 1-0 Indians.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 06:06 PM) First of all, very good list, Kalapse. You actually put them in order of how good they are, nice. First thing that popped into my mind is the pool of "talent" at 1B. If we're serious about rebuilding (which we should be, very soon), we can make a killing trading Konerko. When the best 1B option on the FA market is Shea Hillenbrand, Konerko has to look like Babe Ruth. Konerko has 3 more years on his contract, I believe, so that will make him desirable to other teams, plus he won't be too good by the time our rebuilding has taken place. Also, not much talent at 3B or DH, so teams may be more likely to take a risk on Crede and Thome, to a lesser extent. I read where Hillenbrand may become a free agent a lot sooner. He supposedly is very close to being released.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 07:01 PM) Konerko was a bust as well. Konerko didn't spend parts of 4 seasons in AAA. Lasorda traded him to Cincinatti because he needed a closer and was concerned about Konerko's hip. The Reds traded him for an up and comer who they used to get Ken Griffey Jr. Floyd was dumped by Philadelphia, using the courtesy line, "all he needs is a change of scenery".

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 06:59 PM) Atleast Wood and Prior were immensely talented young players with the ability to pull a s***ty team out of the cellar, you can't say the same at all for Groiny and Grindy. I know. Its so pathetic I'm not even mad. I laugh.

This is karma for laughing at the Cubs all those years waiting on Wood and Prior. Here we are waiting on Pods and Erstad.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 06:46 PM) Well the big news from the 2 hour Sox brain trust meeting this afternoon ... KW on the pregame basically says they (the players) want to see how they perform when Podsednik and Erstad get back, to see if the team can go on a run. Konerko was at the meeting, as was Guillen and Hahn and of course Williams. So it does not look like any trades will be made for now. My guess is they will evaluate where they are in two weeks, like July 1st. KW asked Konerko, Thome and someone else what they needed for the second half last year, and they said nothing. KW, you are the GM, you make the decisions. This is stupid. I don't know how Pods or Erstad will make the bullpen any better, or make Vazquez think like a winner. I also don't know how it will make the rest of the line-up any quicker or swing and miss less. KW will use that meeting to deflect some of the blame off himself. He needs to be fired.

I certainly hope this is the calm before the storm, because the next time I hear Ozzie say that if the players find losing acceptable they are playing for the wrong GM and wrong manager, I will projectile vomit. He has said it at least 3 times, and the biggest move is the Charlotte shuttle. Also, I agree with Steff about KW doing nothing now, at least regarding Buerhle. I have a hard time believing that for as many teams that would or should be involved in Buerhle talks, that he could possibly keep it from the papers.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 05:04 PM) How so? Who the hell are we starting in LF? Our middle of the order is terrible right now, and we need offense. You stick the slugger out in LF and bat him 6th and our lineup got alot scarier over night. So you want to give up prospects for a guy who should make the team better, but will only be around until the end of the year? That's the question for me. I have no problem if the Reds just want to dump his salary, but KW would be out of his mind to give up legitimate prospects for the pipedream of postseason baseball in 2007.

Ozzie would easily be able to tell if the players have tuned out Walker. If he thought they had, I'm sure he'd be gone. When things go bad, stories leak. If the players didn't want to work with Walker, we would have read something by now.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 03:52 PM) Do you have any criticisms to make of minor league hitting coaches? Since nobody ever comes up and does anything? Its hard to say. Most of the guys KW traded away can't hit in the spots where they landed either. So I would say its most likely a lack of ability which falls on the scouts.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 03:44 PM) You might give some credit to Mazzone for Ruthrie and Bedard and Ray as much criticism as you want for his relievers. But let's change the subject around a bit, DA. When do YOU blame the coaches. Do you ever? It certainly would be when I was comfortable with the talent on the field being better than the results. The Sox have DP candidates up and down the line-up. The line-up is bad. There really are no huge on base guys besides Thome. I just can't see how its Walker's fault Konerko and Dye suddenly play like they are 45 years old. If they hit like they did last year, under Walker's presence, there would be no problem except that there still is no speed. Walker didn't get dumb overnight. If hitting coaches make 100 point differences in batting averages, they are vastly underpaid.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 03:14 PM) Yeah I heard that live yesterday while in the car. It was THE classic moron Rowand guy. His whole argument was "he has a ring." By his logic, he'd rather have Geoff Blum at 3rd base instead of, say, Miguel Cabrera in a fantasy world. It reminds of a story I read where Jerry Krause was trying to trade Wil Perdue to Sacramento, and kept on talking up the fact that Will had 3 championship rings. The Sacramento GM finally told Jerry, "so does your trainer."

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 02:55 PM) With Buehrle, it wasn't necessarily tiredness but he wasn't conditioned properly in the offseason as he, by his own admission, took it a little easy after the WS win. As far as Garcia, all his innings don't hurt. Everyone else wasn't THAT bad. Contreras' innings have definitely hurt him. He's thrown like 8000 in Cuba and here combined. Garland started off with dead-arm. Vazquez was fine. The whole "overextended pitching staff" thing isn't exactly a hollow excuse. Randy Johnson spoke about it last year, too. But what the f*** does he know?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? And last year the White Sox lead baseball hitting with RISP. They had a higher OBP hit more homers, and struck out less than Texas, who have supposedly the greatest hitting coach who has ever walked. Leo Mazzone was a pitching coach God, now with Baltimore, his relievers blow. Did he suddenly become stupid? Did Walker suddenly become stupid? The offense has no speed, has no one who can hit and run. Is loaded with guys who strike out a lot. Why is it Walker has to change them from what they are but Cooper gets a pass? I have read countless posts how great Javy Vazquez is. Look at his record with the Sox. Cooper is getting nothing from him. Is it the coaches fault? What about the bullpen. MacDougal was good now he sucks. Blame Cooper. Aardsma was decent in meaningless games for the Cubs. Now he sucks. Blame Cooper. Sisco can't throw a strike. I'm blaming Cooper. Personally, I just think its ridiculous to pin the White Sox lack of offense on the hitting coach. The team is constructed very poorly. I would just like to see consistency from the board when placing blame on failure. If its Walker's fault the offense is bad. Its Coopers fault the bullpen can't throw a strike, and Vazquez always pitches well enough to lose. Ozzie gets a pass too. If Jerry Manuel were the manager he would get fried on this site. Gene LaMont got fired about 30 games into the 1995 season for bad results even though he won a division in 1993 when it was tougher to make the playoffs, and led a team whose organization says to this day would have won the WS in 1994 if there had been one. Finally, KW needs to be skewered as well.