Dick Allen

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 12:36 PM) A top 20 reliever is worth about 1.5 to 2.0 WAR A top 20 starter is worth about 5 WAR KC got away with having a very mediocre rotation with a lockdown bullpen. Cleveland and Detroit have been burned even with top 20 starters in their rotations, by bad bullpens in recent years. Games aren't won and lost based on WAR alone. Is it coincidence the Sox went from one of the best records in baseball to crap once their bullpen fell apart? A loss is a loss. A win a win. Just ask Jose Quintana.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 12:27 PM) The Sox have been amazing at converting and stretching starters. If anyone can do it, it will be them. Even if it doesn't happen, with what a closer is worth today, you have got to reevaluate the old idea of what relievers are worth in the draft. I mean look what a pending free agent wife beater was worth on the open market. Look what Boston gave up for Kimbrel, and what Cleveland gave up for Miller. I am starting to think the bullpen is becoming the most important part of a team. Are there many bad teams with a good bullpen?

Also shorter stints on the mound, but I do agree, it used to be you didn't have more than a couple of guys who threw much harder than 90 if that on any one team.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 11:44 AM) Previous players drafted at pick #26 have nothing to do with Zack Burdi. Just tossing that out. No but it shows there are a lot of misses at that point in the draft. By every team. If he is a contributing reliever, he was a nice selection. If he's elite, he was a steal. It reminds me of when the Bears drafted Kyle Long in the first round. Many were irate, you don't draft a guard in the first round. One quote was he doesn't provide enough value. Well, maybe sometimes you should.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 11:14 AM) No I'm not missing the point, just taking your silly argument to a ridiculous end. It was reported that scouts thought he could possibly be a starter and even reports that the Sox intended to make him one. Spending a couple years attempting to make him a top of the rotation starter is a much better option with minimal downside. After a year or two if that didn't work just make him a reliever again. The extra innings of experience would serve him well anyway. My silly argument that if the guy is a player, he isn't a stupid pick. Gottcha. Just look at what teams give up for top relievers these days. It's a lot more than a #26 pick.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 11:22 AM) He might have three pitches, but I'd be stunned if the Sox use him as anything but a reliever. They've really given no indications of stretching him out. That could change this off-season, but it will be a pretty big thing to do to stretch out a guy who ha been pitching in relief in college and thus doesn't have a track record of throwing all those innings. Nothing wrong with that, but if the Sox think he can be a legit big league closer, I don't see them spinning their wheels trying to turn him into a starter as that will require pretty significant time in the minors and a lot more development, imo. People can use Sale as an example, but Sale was a starter in college who they rested his arm and then stretched him out. Again, it absolutely could be something they work on and they can try to extend him in the pen, etc, just haven't seen much indication that they are going that route. I don't think he is going to start either, in fact it seemed Hostetler basically admitted that in his interview with rabbit. Still, if he is good, its a great pick. There are a ton of misses at that point in the draft.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 11:19 AM) Nope, I am not of that mind at all. But I do understand where GreenSox is going with all of this, which is that in the first round it does stand to reason that you would be far more motivated to select a talent along the lines of a potential future star position player or starting pitcher, before going after a reliever. So if we passed on a future Syndergaard or an Aaron Judge or Michael Kopech in favor of a reliever, then we better hope said reliever turns out to be closer to the Goose Gossages and Bruce Sutters of the world, or else this pick could look like a missed opportunity. Then you must be really happy you aren't a Cubs fan or Indians fan or Red Sox fan. Look at all the minor league talent they gave up for relief pitchers.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 11:08 AM) I like how I contributed to the salient point that GreenSox was making which is questioning the type of talent we ought to be selecting with the #26 pick, by showing recent picks at either #26 or after the 26th pick. So no matter what kind of career he has, if Burdi is a career relief pitcher, you are with GreenSox, it was a terrible pick.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 10:57 AM) There's never been a decent reliever picked at #26 so obviously it was a bad pick. You are missing the point. #26 picks historically haven't been all that great. Not just the White Sox but league wide. In fact, the White Sox drafted one of the most successful #26 overall picks in the last 25 years, Mark Johnson. Not exactly a guy you can build a team around. If this guy is successful, it's a good pick. Even though he's ONLY a reliever. Like those guys aren't getting more important by the minute these days.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 10:48 AM) The point is that you don't draft CEILING relief pitchers in the first round. You hope for better...some will work out and others won't. I they don't work out as starters then they can be reliever. Your logic would field a 60 win team...let's use our first round picks for guys were confident can be relievers and utility infielders...whoopee! What the Sox lack are impact players. These players must usually be drafted or signed internationally. Williams and Hahn have done a particularly poor job at org building. And let's be honest. Burdi was drafted to help the pen THIS year; Now that even Williams, Hahn and their Ouiji Board have to realize the Sox aren't in it, it's time to develop him as a starter. Too bad Courtney Hawkins wasn't available. If the guy can pitch, it's a good pick. The Tigers took Andrew Miller with the #8 pick. He's a reliever. I bet there are a lot of teams drafting 1-26 that year that would have loved to have had him.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 10:17 AM) best guys picked between #25 and #30: Alan Trammell Mike Trout George Brett Mike Schmidt Trout was #25. Burdi was #26. The other guys were drafted in 1976, 1971, and 1971. So 40-45 years ago. If Burdi is a solid relief pitcher, the Sox will have drafted well at #26.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 10:00 AM) If Williams/Hahn insist on drafting players in the first round to fill relief roles, I have no problem starting the clock. But poor organizational building, including stuff such as this, is why the Sox are where they are organizationally and with the major league team: hopelessly non-competitive when trying to win. Show me how many #26 overall draft picks contributed more than a decent relief pitcher the last 24 years. Nate Jones is about a half a season away from matching all of their WAR totals combined. But keep thinking they should have drafted a first ballot HOFer there. Besides, relievers values are only going higher.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 11:44 PM) Why don't the Sox start THEIR own network. Seriously. What will be interesting is what the Cubs use to fill time on their station, especially during the offseason. I suppose the Shuffleboard World Championship could be a big draw. The Cubs, I am sure, would love a partner. But it obviously won't be the Bulls. I really doubt Rocky will blow off JR either. Maybe the Bears would be willing to throw some content on their station, but how much?

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 09:06 AM) It's amazing how much this mirrors the Bulls now. It has for a while. KW is Krause. The guy that won that now has no clue. Hahn is Paxson, the guy everyone can't wait to really take over, until he actually takes over.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 08:18 AM) The fact that JR went out of his way to debunk the rumor pretty much confirms it was true. They only go that public when they have to lie. He's certainly not going to confirm there is a problem, but the other rumor was Hahn is leaving. JR's comments seem to indicate neither Hahn or KW are going anywhere.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 03:07 PM) nobody knows which of the triumvirate was responsible for any particular move. I hold them all responsible for each move good and bad.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Well respected around the league, and not really given a chance to put his stamp on the team. There are now 2 reports in 2 of the last 3 years where Hahn wanted to rebuild only to be shot down by JR and KW. The trades where Hahn has "sold" on, they were pretty damn good trades. Peavy netted Montas (who got Frazier), Wendelken (who got Lawrie), Avi, and Rondon. Santiago got Eaton. Jennings for Rienzo. Almonte for Beckham (then traded for Kahnle, still hate that trade). Duke for Tilson. Overall not bad when we sold high on players But if he has no power, how can you give him the credit for those trades? They would have to be KW's?

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:46 PM) I agree, but I just think that the problems with this franchise is JR and KW than Hahn. Hahn is paddling the same boat as the other 2.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:44 PM) Drafting, player development has gotten better under Hahn. In terms of actually having a plan, he can't execute his plan because KW and JR don't sign off on it. If you are saying his hands are tied and his plan cannot be executed, how can you say he has anything to do with drafting better and better player development? Basically, if any what has been reported is true, Hahn's role really hasn't changed much since before the Sox won the WS. This is getting back to anything good has to be Hahn, anything bad is KW and JR. It just couldn't be accurate.

QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:41 PM) And is the franchise in much better shape now than it was then? What has Rick Hahn done to give him any sort of pass? That's what I don't get. Why do people automatically think Hahn has all the answers? He was trained by KW and JR. He has been part of the decision making process for well over a decade. Saying if they would just listen to him everything would be OK is dreaming. If he flees, which I doubt, it will indicate there is some sort of problem or JR was going to jack him anyway.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:37 PM) Are Williams and Reinsdorf not more to blame? They are the ones in charge and won't let Hahn do his job as the team's GM. It's also out there that Hahn wanted to rebuild the off season going into '14 I believe, but was told not too. Hahn then had to adjust his plans, and then acquired Samardzija. JR and KW want to compete, give the team some money to play with instead of 18 million wasted on Latos, Rollins, Jackson, and Albers. Finally, Hahn wanted to rebuild this trade deadline, was told not having any of that. Hahn is tied at the hands with what he can do. First off, we really don't know for sure what the actual facts are. Trading Samardzija, might have been his idea, but I'm kind of excited about Burdi. Rebuilding can still be done in the offseason this year. If his hands have been tied since the get go, there is no reason a person with any pride would continue the way he has.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) I agree, but Hahn has only been "in charge" for 3 years. What is out there that would indicate KW and JR are stooges and RH is not? He's been part of the operation and decision making process for more than a few years. Rick Hahn has been the proverbial back up QB for years. Always very popular until you actually have to put him in a game.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:28 PM) Brian Bilek ‏@BrianBilek_ 43m43 minutes ago Brian Bilek Retweeted RockChalk Hahn would have to be offered a promotion to be relieved of his contract. Maybe he has the same type of contract as KW where there is an automatic rollover. Basically if KW got fired, he would get a year's severance. But even with a possible promotion, JR wouldn't let him talk to Toronto. KW then contemplated resigning, but realized that wouldn't be very bright.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:18 PM) He can only get out of his contract if he were to be promoted. Anyone can quit. He has a law degree, an MBA if JR wouldn't let him go somewhere else, but I doubt JR would want him around if Hahn didn't want to be around.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:08 PM) Hahn seems like a simpleton or completely gullible to me. I don't see how the guy went to Harvard Law or whatever it was. That's one reason I am not fully buying this. Maybe he did want to do a total rebuild. That still can be done. It doesn't mean he has been against every move made the last 2 years, and if he was, he's a wuss for still being there.