Dick Allen

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 01:39 PM) What a horrible post. When did anyone ever say Robin was the difference between making & missing the playoffs? Seriously, I guarantee you couldn't provide a single post from this forum stating that, let alone multiple of them. But yup, those of us in favor of firing Robin are the delusional ones. And is that really your argument for keeping Robin? That because Robin isn't worth 9+ games, which is what it would take for us to make the playoffs this season, we should keep him? If so, all I can say is that's some f***ed up logic. If replacing Robin makes us even a single game better, then it's a move worth making. I'm so sick of the same old "managers don't matter" defense for keeping a garbage one. If managers really didn't matter, which is incorrect, then you shouldn't give two s***s if we replace him. At this point in time, there is no defense for keeping him. Maybe a change doesn't add much value, but it simply can't hurt. You are delusional if you think it suddenly makes this team any better. All he was saying was great fire Robin. The reality is he is the least of the White Sox problems. There are several players you should hope get "fired" before him.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 01:03 PM) I can't believe Robin still has supporters. He's accomplished NOTHING in his tenure here and quite frankly there's no logical defense for keeping him. Thank god the front office finally realizes this and the pointless argument can end. He will be gone, but unless you want to give JR, RH, and KW some credit, no one was going to win with the hand Robin was dealt.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 12:51 PM) I was actually referring to the Yankees. OK. I agree. Chapman coming back makes too much sense. He even hinted it at his Cubs press conference.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 12:47 PM) Yeah they aren't doing a full rebuild or anything. They'll be in on a lot of the free agents next year with so much money cleared. I actually expect them to sign Chapman. I don't think they will do a full rebuild, but I do think they will trade one of Q or Sale for prospects and a major league piece, probably Robertson as well, and see what they can put together.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 12:22 PM) Granted I don't get to see him much, but the impression I have of him as a manager is Ozzie Guillen-esque. Bunting, base stealing ,and loud. He doesn't seem loud to me, but he is definitely old school and not too into advanced stats.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 12:21 PM) I don't think Mike is going to have the choice. I think his time has come in Anaheim and he's due for a fresh start. He's going to get a lot of dough though and most likely I presume would take a season off. I think a change in scenery would do him very good and I'd love it if the Sox were to get him, but I don't see it happening. It's hard for managers to win with crappy players. They spent a lot of bad money. I think the Pujols contract looks worse at the end than ARod's.

With a guy like Burdi, if he is just blowing away AAA hitters, how is he going to get better? I understand the rushing guys crowd, but Fulmer was having no problems with AA guys at the time he was recalled. Burdi doesn't seem to be having problems with anyone now either. Chances are they will struggle here, but they and the team get a better idea of where they are at, and what needs to be improved. It obviously isn't a strategy for everybody, but if you are a better prospect and not really being challenged at your level, you aren't going to get better.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 11:20 AM) So Hahn and KW will/should fall on their own swords to preserve Ventura's managerial position? Great. At least it would be a direction of some sort. What would the White Sox record be with the "proper" manager? There may be no need for a rebuild.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 11:14 AM) Post of the Year. Give Hahn and KW lifetime extensions. Between this year's draft and the Sale/Q contracts and 2005, thry're set for at least another 3-5 more years before you give up defending them. You've already started to tip in thst direction this year in recent months, but just enjoy playing devil's advocate too much. You're better off attacking Cooper and wondering where all the anti-Steverson outrage is...probably something to do with him being invisible AND not a former Sox player and not involved in the Guillen/KW/Coop circus/spy ring. Wow.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 11:09 AM) These guys aren't 12 year old kids. Do you really think a manager has that much influence over the way a guy whose been playing baseball for a minimum of 15 up to 30+ years? Come on. The difference between the best managers in the game and the worst is maybe a few wins a year. And besides, how the hell do you know what goes on in the locker room? For all you know Ventura could be preaching the kinds of things you're saying day in and day out. Are you honestly advocating benching a guy like Adam Eaton because he doesn't run out one ground ball? Eaton was actually told to take it easy going to first base on some routine plays as he tends to injure himself.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 11:01 AM) If the White Sox traded away Santiago and the equivalent of Finnegan, let's say Fulmer...and actually got anywhere close to the playoffs, that would be great. As long as one team or GM buys into the hype, you have a trade partner. Besides, Cueto was about as good as Hector Santiago with the exception of two key post-season starts that rescued his legacy from terrible disappointment to....still not invited to the White House. Not to mention the Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates all can hit a little bit. Sox traded Santiago, a guy you valued as a top of the rotation starter who turned out to not be a top of the rotation starter for Adam Eaton, a guy who might put up a 6.0 WAR this year. Outstanding trade.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:55 AM) Witty aphorism but I'm pretty sure most good businesses care very much what their customers have to say. Maybe JR does not consider people like you and me to be customers though. I only bring my family to a handful of games, watch a bunch on TV, and buy White Sox apparel. Hardly worth paying attention to someone like that. Yes, the White Sox probably seek more opinion from their fanbase than any other team in baseball. However, seeking personnel advise for a MLB team from your fanbase is a lot more crazy than anyone who disagrees with your opinions.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:52 AM) And you said Danny Duffy wasn't very good at all and Ubaldo Jimenez was the prize of the free agent class a couple of years ago. Then you'll come back with something about Puig, and around and around it will go. Have at it. Whenever you make those comments, these pitchers invariably throw multiple shutouts against the Sox. Besides, going by your philosophy, pitching to a 10-7 record on two of the worst teams in the American League, he'd be 13-5 with the White Sox and contending for a Cy Young. He's a valuable and MUCH cheaper version of our innings eater, James Shields. At any rate, compare his 10-7 with Rodon's record. Isn't he our #3? It's just funny you don't mention Hector anymore with his 4.80 ERA and his well over 5.00 FIP, or Finnegan who is in the same boat, and even the Reds are thinking back to the bullpen..

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:48 AM) JR seems to have rabbit ears when it comes to radio show hosts. Wonder if he follows Soxtalk? As the old saying goes, you start listening to the fans, you wind up sitting next to them.

The Yankees idea of a rebuild is a bit differnet than most. They did trade Miller, but they traded 2 free agents to be, and are cutting ties with 2 veterans who can't hit .200 anymore. These moves were not exactly drastic.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:43 AM) Don't forget Guerra, Devenski, Harrell...Montas is one of the few legit success stories, then you really have to go back to Hudson and relievers like Reed and Santos prior to that. But you have told us many times Hector Santiago's floor was a #3 starter.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:19 AM) Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But if it not the same as yours, they are crazy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:00 AM) No, I'm not. Rick Hahn is. I would have no problem with Rodon having been in AAA last year and Fulmer being in AA this year. The White Sox are the ones insisting these guys are mid rotation and back of the bullpen contributors on a contending team right now. He's hoping.You're the one saying their developmental reputation needs to be questioned in part because guys drafted in 2014 and 2015 aren't dominating major league hitters. BTW, Rodon has been looking pretty good since his DL stint.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) My point in short form - their development is not "so good you should never question their decisions". We have heard that in this thread with Burdi, we heard that with Fulmer being put in the bullpen, we heard that with Rodon being called up, we heard that with Shields being acquired. They are not terrible at it. Their pitching development is not a wasteland. Next year it could look great again. But from 2014-2016 it is not doing what this franchise requires it to do, and as a consequence pitching remains a need at the big league level. But you are asking for guys like Rodon and Fulmer to be really effective right away. Who from those drafts have done that to this point? Rodon actually leads his draft in WAR.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:44 AM) Look how far back you had to go though. Santiago arrived in 2012. Reed arrived in 2012. If those guys were still here they'd have 1 year before free agency. If they were still here, Cleveland would still have a better rotation than us. The pitching development isn't terrible, as you point out it's better than position player development, but it's not so incredible that everyone should stop questioning what they're doing with these guys. 5 years ago you could make that case, but 5 years in MLB is a long time. They developed Montas enough he went from a throw in to a part of a trade for an All Star 3B. They developed another throw in enough to acquire Lawrie. Nate Jones looks pretty good. It probably hasn't been as good as they want to make it, but it isn't as bad as you are suggesting. I always thought their starting pitching development was a bit overrated, but for years, they have had relievers all over baseball.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:31 AM) That fits into the "no one in the pipeline right now" part. There's no depth in the organization either because of those trades. They haven't developed back of the rotation guys or middle relief that well either. Putnam and Petricka fit into that category so it isn't zero, but the lack of depth is another part of this season. They established a guy like Rienzo enough to get Jennings. They established Santiago enough to get Eaton. Addsion Reed was developed decently, and traded, and most here were pretty happy with the return. I think you are selling them short a bit here. They haven't been a pitching developmental factory, but they have probably been above average. Compared to their position player developmental prowess, it looks huge.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:08 AM) It's time to start going after the bolded, because I think there's now a strong case that this organization is resting on reputation alone in terms of developing pitchers. Go back 5 years, and they developed 2 very good starting pitchers. They deserve all the credit for that in the world, those 2 guys are strong, but they're literally carrying this staff. They haven't developed a successful, mid to top of the rotation starter in 5 years. Had it not been for the contract Chris Sale signed he would be a free agent at the end of this year. They have a solid rotation because of one of a handful of positive things Rick Hahn did for this franchise - locking those 2 starters up early. Overall though the picture at the big league level is bleak. The Sox have a slightly better team ERA than Detroit, but Detroit has a slightly higher team fWAR from their staff. Cleveland has a significantly better team ERA than the White Sox. The White Sox's supposed plan was to develop enough pitching to have that carry them, right? Well 3rd best staff in the division doesn't get you there. And that's not without throwing substantial resources at the staff. They signed a big money closer. They took on payroll in adding a pitcher this year. And they have invested 2 top-10 picks in their rotation the last 3 years. Look deeper and you'll get even more concerned. They clearly had no idea where Rodon or Fulmer were going to be this year and overestimated how ready both of them were. They could still turn things around, both are young, but so far these guys are mediocre starters with good fastballs that the White Sox haven't developed as fast as they insisted they could. They made decisions this year expecting both would be strong contributors and they were clearly wrong. Someone in this organization that is supposed to know pitching told Rick Hahn that James Shields was fixable or had something left. They spent big money on Robertson and he's underwhelmed. They also have little to no depth in their starters. Take a look at the guy going last night. There isn't much in the pipeline right now that can step in when someone goes on the DL or someone struggles, other than a replacement-level/waiver wire acquisition. There is no one about ready to break in from AAA. What else have they developed over the past 5 years? Maybe you give them credit for guys they traded away, Santiago Bassitt and Montas, but those guys have had a lot of work done by other organizations too. If pitching is supposed to be the thing they're trading away to build up the rest of their roster, they have a pretty weak roster and they still have pitching needs. This could turn around next year. There's talent in Rodon and Fulmer, James Shields could find his previous self, and Hansen could darn well be the next Scherzer. The investment they've put into finding pitching could pay off. But as of right now, this is a team that hasn't developed a mid-rotation starter or back of the bullpen pitcher in 5 years. This is a team where we're not supposed to question their pitching development, but they have major needs of starting pitching and relief pitching. They're separated from having the worst rotation in their division not by what they've developed, but by contracts that guys signed. They're resting on reputation right now. Then you have no problem with the team trading prospects who obviously will never be any good, for established players.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:57 AM) Beside, I am not concerned about other teams. But you are blaming it on the manager, so there currently are 30 managers you would have a problem with.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:55 AM) Is jogging to 1st base ok with you then? No its not. But most run hard to first. Not like it used to be with the team when not many people complained. Back in the mid 00s, I read an article quoting a scout how they couldn't get White Sox players times to 1B because no one busted it down the line. For the most part they do now, but again, you see that all around baseball. If you are hanging that on a manager, you are going to have a hard time finding a guy to manage your team.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:47 AM) Oh Dickie, I have seen a few times during the season where the outfielder was trying to get the out at home with no chance. Not even close. But in the meantime, the runner advances to 2nd. That's called throwing to the wrong base and not knowing the situation. Sorry to burst your bubble. If it happened, it isn't a chronic problem that happened any more often than it does with any other team. When Austin Jackson was out there, the Sox OF defense was really good. I would imagine the White Sox are pretty highly ranked in OF assists this season. They haven't won enough games, but it isn't because of throwing to the wrong base or lack of effort .