Dick Allen

He hit it hard at least.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 05:02 PM) Depends on how the organization sees Fulmer and Adams going forward. Nobody is untouchable if another team is willing to give you more than you feel they're inherently worth...especially with the injury risk with pitchers being so high. Theoretically, you'd say that Anderson and Rodon are it....but, once again, what are the odds of getting max value from Eaton/Q/Sale? Trading Frazier and Abreu at this point (eroded values) doesn't make sense. That leaves you working on the periphery again....clearing out Cabrera, Robertson, possibly Jones (or you make him your closer and/or wait for Burdi) and Lawrie. These aren't going to net you much better prospects than Avi/Davidson, but are more done for salary relief purposes. Just for symbolic purposes, they need to move on from Avi as well. The problem is that once you've traded Cabrera/Robertson/Jones/Lawrie/Garcia, then what's the point having your core intact if that core is going to have to wait at least 1-2 years for those newly-acquired players just to get their feet wet in the big leagues? So it all depends on how advanced the prospects are...if the best you can get is players that are in High A ball this season, then there's really little advantage to holding Sale/Q/Eaton because by the time they've established themselves as big leaguers, one of those players is either hurt/diminished in value or the window's already starting to close with their contracts. In other words, you will tell us what you would have done now sometime down the road.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 01:02 PM) A 13-2 game is more likely to destroy your bullpen for the next couple of days. True to a point. They usually get a lamb in there who you really wouldn't use in a tight game anyway.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:47 PM) By the way, I wasn't disagreeing with your notion on the overall 1-2 though in the actual games pitched. One would never know for sure, but I certainly wouldn't have been pegging either of the other options for some shutout or great game. In general, I think the bigger issue with this franchise is we are in a go for broke mode without having the appropriate resources to have a quality / worthwhile success rate on executing the strategy. That issue is bigger than the GM's and driven by the owner and this isn't going to change without a new owner / different vision (which given JR's age, I can't see him wanting to oversee a long haul rebuild). I personally presume he's viewing this as a, get into the playoffs if at all possible (for his own enjoyment) but also potentially to maximize / improve potential valuations. I don't expect him to be the owner for much longer (and no I'm not being morbid here, just saying I think he's going to sell the franchise sooner vs. later so he can see the direction it goes vs. putting it into a trust (now this could also be him just removing himself from chair duties and someone else stepping in since there are other stakeholders in the equation). Shields really isn't go for broke though is he? SD is paying him more than the White Sox. The Sox just need him to be a #4 starter. So far, obviously it looks bad, but it just is hard for me to think he can really possibly be this bad. I am sure the Sox didn't want to pay John Danks to sit at home. Same with Latos. I'm also sure they would love Erik Johnson to be pitching decently in their rotation. It wasn't happening. They probably rushed acquiring Shields. I'd imagine if he did the same thing in SD as he has done with his Sox starts, he would be even cheaper if they wanted him at all. But he can't be this bad. No one is. Hopefully he figures something out and silences his critics. We will see what happens on Thursday. We do know any Red Sox kept out of the line up isn't going to be happy with Farrell. Maybe Big Game James will shock the world and be decent. They need offense. 2 runs each game in Cleveland. I thought, or at least hoped Hahn had something up his sleeve and the offense would get a boost for that series. But scoring 2 a game isn't going get you wins, and frankly I would rather the Sox lose 13-2 than 3-2.

There have definitely been some Cuban busts lately.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:20 AM) He's fine. I didn't see a lot of people claiming we rushed Rodon and that he needed to take his lumps in Charlotte at the end of last season. If he were in Charlotte there'd be no lumps, he'd just be dominating. We haven't seen his best baseball yet. It's unfortunate he hasn't rocketed off like Aaron Nola, but he also doesn't get to face all those squishy NL lineups. There would be clamouring to call him up. I don't know what anyone has against Rodon. He is young, he will have some struggles, but if he stays healthy, he is going to dominate. If Don Cooper is the pitching guru he is built up to be, wouldn't you want him under his watchful eye rather than Richard Dotson's?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:12 PM) How many games did they loose because of how taxed the pen was though? I don't know, but there could be a carryover effect there which could drive Shields bad performance to costing us other games because of the use of the bullpen. It would be hard to tell in the long run, but in the games following, no effect. The first bad one, they won the next 2 games. The next one, they lost 11-8 but Gonzalez gave up 7 in 3 1/3 and Purke gave up 3. You could argue they wouldn't have used Purke because he was one they didn't use before, but it would be hard to imagine the Sox bullpen going 5 2/3 and not giving up anything. And losing Sunday had nothing to do with the bullpen being taxed on Saturday. Eventually it will, but I think Shields will eventually improve.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:12 PM) Yeah, it has to be that. It can't be because Alomar wanted to wait for the opportunity to work for a better-run organization. Renteria had no qualms about taking the bench coach position and, presumably, the manager position next season. That tells you that he actually wants to work for the Sox. If I'm hiring and the guy I liked the most chose to continue in a lower-level position with a different organization, I have second thoughts about interviewing that guy again. The Sox had to wait on Renteria because if Bud Black got the Washington job, he was going with him. We do know they wanted to speak to Sandy, to say one was the #1 choice, we really don't know, but the Sox seem happy with what they got. Sandy did say he wouldn't take the job out of respect to Robin, but I believe he refused to interview.

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:43 AM) Danks was done, but nevertheless - in his 4 starts before being cut: - Never went less than 5 IP - Never gave up more than 6 ER In the 3 starts from Shields with us: - *He's gone 5 IP once - He's never given up LESS than 6 ER And there's always that last start from SD we can throw in for an "apples to apples" comparison. So if Danks is done (and we agree) based on his numbers, what logic enables you to continue to argue that Shields is not? *This, in a game where we are already losing 6-0 after 2 innings! His starts before his bad streak. And other than to run differential people, does it matter if you lose 6-2 vs. 13-2?

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:16 AM) Dick - I'm not the one trying to prove anything. I am saying that YOU CAN NOT PROVE how the Sox offense performs by simply substituting a pitcher that has been DFA'd into a game log. And the even bigger point is that we cut and/or traded the other guys so GOING FORWARD, we are WORSE off in the likely scenario this continues rather than having some options if we stood pat and or addressed another (more important) need. We will see. Danks was done. I was one of his biggest fans. Latos was struggling. No one else picked him up. Kind of telling. Erik Johnson's ERA with the Padres is over 10.00. We saw enough of him to realize it was going to be tough winning on the days he pitched. Shields has been as awful as anyone can be. But he was pretty good before his last 4 starts and has a decent track record. There are obviously concerns, but he won't be this bad forever.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:15 AM) Okay. People's gripe should be that Rick Hahn is okay with being in charge but not really being in charge. I think Rick is responsible for all of the moves but Reinsdorf obviously has to sign off on all of them. That's my point. Rick Hahn may see a viable scenario in which selling off parts makes sense. Kenny may feel the same way but if JR doesn't want to do that, then they need to do what is currently being done. Well then what is the deal with Shields. Was that totally JR? Was it KW, was it Hahn? I think it was all 3. I really don't see where anyone can come to the conclusion that Hahn wants to blow it up. Has he ever hinted it? I think it is just people who want the White Sox to blow it up who are hoping beyond hope Rick Hahn agrees with them. I don't think he does, and my source, which is nobody, is just as good as the source that says he wants to get rid of everyone.

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:10 AM) They scored a bunch of runs that whole series because DETROIT PITCHING SUCKS! But whatever, Dick - Have fun with your rationalization of Shields and conclusions drawn based on nothing but your own "confidence." So it had nothing to do with Shields. Thanks for proving yourself wrong. And aren't you doing the same thing you are accusing me of being such a dope to do?

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:57 AM) But they didn't score 10 runs with Shields pitching. They scored 6. The rest came after he was out, and simultaneously, so was the Tigers starter (Boyd). But they did that game. They scored 4 runs against the Nats and 2 runs against Cleveland. I am very confident believing if Danks, Johnson, or Latos started those games, they would have been losses. It's amazing you even want to argue that considering how the team has done recently with Sale, Q, or Rodon on the mound. The bottom line is Shields has been awful, but the change in the rotation hasn't really effected the team's record.

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:50 AM) Yes, silly indeed. I mean - of course having guys run around for 45 minutes while 7 plus runs cross the plate in the 1ST INNING doesn't have an effect on them at the plate. Why would it? How did they scored 10 his second start? Why don't they score for Quintana? I'm guessing the opposing pitcher has far more to do with the White Sox offense any particular day than the White Sox pitcher. But yes, Danks was terrific this year and would have shut those nasty Nats down. And I am sure, despite his 10.00 + ERA, Erik Johnson would have pitched gems each time out. And Latos was terrific his last few starts. No reason to believe he couldn't hold the Indians to 1 or 2 runs.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:50 AM) Oh, sorry. Didn't realize Hahn said his Boss was fine with wasting money a terrible acquisition. Case closed. I know you are being sarcastic, but it pretty much is. Hahn isn't getting fired. KW isn't getting fired. Anyone want to bet on that?

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:39 AM) Oh, so you just want to assume the offense is the same, while switching out a pitcher. I see. More nonsense. How about saving $ and time? I'm sorry, it is total nonsense. Who would think James Shields being on the mound would not cause the White Sox to not score runs, especially considering they scored 10 one of his starts, and have offensive explosions with their better pitchers pitching. Silly me.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) Francona didn't start winning until his 5th year as a manager when he joined the Red Sox. The Red Sox teams he managed had a top 5 payroll every year he was there. Robin is just now in his 5th year managing and has had no higher than the 12th highest payroll. Over Francona's first 4 years he went 285-363 (.439), Robin has gone 297-351 (.458) through his first 4 years and nearly won the division in his first year. If the Sox had Francona during his Phillies days you guys would have the exact same complaints. Exactly: 68-94 75-87 77-85 65-97 A clown who no one will ever want managing again. The next season he managed, he won the WS. Better players does tend to help.

Can we all just drop the Hahn wants something totally different, his hands may be tied, he is just doing what he is told line of thinking. He has worked with KW and JR for years and years and years. He's had opportunities to go elsewhere. If his philosophy is polar opposite of KW and JR, he either wouldn't be employed by the team, or is too weak to be a guy making decisions.

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:26 AM) That is pure conjecture. There is absolutely no way you can support that conclusion. There is a way. They scored 4, 10 and 2 runs. They would have won the game they scored 10. I don't think Danks or Johnson are giving up less than 4 to Washington. And you really think they would have held the Indians to 2?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:19 AM) Another great explanation of the resounding gong "show me where this organization is capable of scouting and developing talent". That's what I am trying to point out. You can't say the team is incapable of scouting and developing talent, and want the team to trade any talent it does have away for people who need to be scouted and developed.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) I just want this f***ing guy to be a solid #5 from here on out. Maybe we can hope for an offseason of adjustments for next year to be better. Give us close to 200 innings around 4.5 era ball and we'll take it out of the 5 spot. Edit: or hope he is absolutely miserable here enough to the point where he opts out haha (I've noticed the dude hasn't looked interested at all pitching here. At least to me it seems). It will be something that will be fixed. A guy can't go from a 3.06 ERA to be worse than a position player on the mound overnight. To me, I think it's mechanics. His delivery seems different every pitch. It seemed better the last couple of innings his second start, but you knew when he walked the first hitter on Saturday on 4 pitches with none even close that it was going to be another disaster. Coop needs to fix him quick. As bad as he's been, if Erik Johnson, John Danks or Mat Latos made the 3 starts Shields made, the Sox would more than likely be 1-2 in them, just what they are with Shields.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:48 AM) That's ridiculous to say they won't be fired. If this freefall continues, and Shields goes on like this, Hahn's seat will be very hot after asking to DFA Danks in order to acquire possibly the worst starter that has ever played baseball, with a contract we have to hope gets laroched. Add to that Year 4 of a rebuild going nowhere. Everything has its limits. Wasting JR's money is a quick way to test them. They let Danks go way before that, and JR was part of the acquire Shields decision. He wasn't talked into it. They aren't getting fired, and even if Hahn was, KW wouldn't. Would you want him trading for prospects? "Our owner had a little concern with that outing, too. It wasn't a fun conversation to have," a smiling Hahn said. "He pointed out the line. He wanted to make sure we were aware of it, and I assured him we were aware of it. "Ultimately, he understood the track record of this player and how he fits in going forward. I've harped on this, but we've looked for an extended period of time. But certainly this last offseason, trying to add guys who fit into that clubhouse, that have a certain type of character, a certain type of makeup that helps not only focus on the matter at hand and competes, but also makes the guys around them better. James is another example of that type of makeup. Jerry [Reinsdorf] appreciated the entirety of the player beyond just that one game."

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:42 AM) If your argument is that Hahn/KW should not be the ones doing the rebuild, I agree. They should both be fired for their Major League roster plan this year. But trading away some of our more valuable assets before they are not valuable anymore when we aren't going to win anyway is not a bad strategy just because the Royals were bad for a long time. They are not going to be fired. Still want to do a total rebuild?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:31 AM) I would be really impressed with JR if he sent out a letter expressing his own personal disappointment and 1) offering the equivalent amount purchased since the end of April/early may towards an equal amount of complimentary 2017 tickets OR 2) offering a full refund for the remaining 2016 tickets purchased as a show of good faith that eventually the front office will get something right. Of course, now that the fans have been "suckered" into buying those additional 100-150,000 tickets, no such tender/offer will be forthcoming. Which means that it will be suicide selling season tickets for 2017 if this trend continues. All the fans will be waiting until at least June/July of 2017 since not even the 2nd best start in baseball guarantees much of anything for this franchise. LMAO. Yeah this team will be in a .300 winning pct slump the rest of the year. They are 3 under .500.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:11 AM) Pretty sure people don't want Hahn/KW in charge of rebuild, as has been stated. But, I'm sure anyone that advocates firing hahn is an idiot, because everyone knows that some teams have fired their GM and gotten WORSE, so we should definitely never do any action. There is a whole encyclopedia of times where teams tried and failed so, too risky. We should deifnitely just wait for a draft that won't affect the team for 3 years to add on to our nice fore of 34 year old star players. Much safer. Look at how great the winning we are experiencing is.Rebuilds feature so much losing, the sox winning ways have really been much more fun. Is Hahn an idiot or not? It seems every bad idea was KW's and any good one was Hahn's. Their philosophies are most likely a lot more similar than anyone who thinks every bad idea is KW's wants to believe. But they are the guys who are going to be making the decisions. So if you think either is incapable, having them trade players like Sale and Q and Abreu is insane.