Dick Allen

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 09:17 AM) See enclosed article. And it doesn't matter for three reasons, compared to the White Sox situation: 1) They should have at least another $5-10 million to squeeze in additional salary, especially with all the excitement in the city over the Cavs starting to spill over to baseball. 2) Much better farm system...they have multiple Top 100 prospects to trade. 3) They also have additional starting rotation pitching depth to trade from. The White Sox, if they want a real impact player, are going to have to take on a huge contract...it's going to be a veteran instead of "in his prime" player again, and someone his team is willing to dump due to salary issues. Then why did they settle on Marlin Byrd?

Prospects break your heart. I get BP every year and keep it under my bed. Here are the top 20 prospects according to them in 2010: Strasburg Heyward Naftali Perez Jesus Montero Stanton Pedro Alvarez Desmond Jennings Carlos Santana Buster Posey Chris Carter Dustin Ackley Jeremy Hellickson Ryan Westmoreland Martin PereZ Kyle Drabek Justin Smoak Brian Matusz Escobar Michael Taylor Madison Bumgarner That is baseballs top 20 6 years ago. Does that look like a roster that should contend year after year?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 09:04 AM) First of all, the Indians are "making do" just fine on a payroll that's ONLY around $90 million. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2...r_paul_d_6.html Look, the owner (Dolan) learned a lesson and didn't repeat it. PLEASE FORWARD TO JR!!! And it's $32 million over 2 years, so an average of $16 million PER YEAR, not anywhere close to the White Sox's $30 million. And, look, the free agents they brought in this time were/are bargain deals, Rajai Davis, Napoli and Juan Uribe. None were long-term commitments, all have played important roles. Seems pretty darned miraculous, compared to the KW and Hahn Regime. Could it have something to do with Salazar, Carrasco, Gomes, Carlos Santana, Francisco Lindor (one of the Top 3 young SS's in baseball), Jose Ramirez, Abraham Almonte, etc., all coming out of Latin America and GOOD INTL. SCOUTING? As far the Royals go, they have released Infante, costing $15 million over the next two years (and buyout), Gordon's been hurt so that's different than just completely non-performing/failing and that move was also about sending a PR message to their fanbase they would do whatever it took to retain some of their (even aging) core to show their appreciation for sticking it out through the lean years (both for Gordon and the fans). Vargas is the on the DL still because of TJ, but they're receiving insurance compensation, and, once again, you're talking about an injury. But, miracle of miracles, they've developed replacements despite trading away 7 of their best pitching prospects. They just sent down an OF hitting .317 (Fuentes) and are going to have to choose between an outfielder with a 1000+ OPS (Eibner) or 850ish OPS (Orlando) when Alex Gordon comes back next week from NW Arkansas. Basically, they have 5 rookies playing well beyond replacement level (700-1025 OPS)...and none of them were Top 10 BA prospects, other than Cuthbert at #10. We have....Jason Coats and Anderson. If you really want to to go through the entire White Sox payroll, it would be pretty difficult to get Top 50-75 pieces back for Robertson and Cabrera (simply freeing up their contracts would be the biggest accomplishment), Duke...even Todd Frazier right now. According to Cots, the Indians are paying $22 million this season to players who will never play for them.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:52 AM) Melky and Robertson have been good signings, I give you that. However, overall do you think Hahn and KW did a good job with this ball club from 2012- to present day? My issue is the overall inconsistencies with their plan. Or lack there of. Of course not. Although they have made moves that seemed logical that exploded in their faces. There is something about hitters when they come to the White Sox stinking the place up. Is it because of something here or a problem with the identifying? They really wanted Alex Gordon. Seemed logical. Yet he was stinking the place up before he got hurt. Biut the list is long. Abreu and Eaton are the only 2 I can recall that gave you career average offense from the start.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:36 AM) I believe the demand here is to put an even crappier product on the field at the cell for a couple seasons as long as they are winning down on the farm? Let's talk reality. There isn't patience with that. Anyone doing well in the minors needs to be promoted immediately. If the major league team sucks there always are a few players deemed to serve no purpose. They have too many good pieces to blow it up.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:24 AM) Its not about simply losing Thompson. It's losing those draft picks in 2015, it's the lack of direction. Or should I say, maintaining a course for direction. They get on and off and completely misjudge talent and overall needs for the organization. Can you be honest with yourself and say KW and Hahn's tenure from 2012 and on have been a success? If they go for it-- it's half a$$, if they rebuild or should I say 'retool' it's bringing in mediocre guys or players who are just slightly above average players. White Sox fans don't want to 'lose' for the sake of losing. However, if it's apart of a TRUE rebuilding plan, Heck we would embrace it. Why? Because it means they actually have a course for a true direction. No more muddling along in mediocrity land. I think Robertson and Melky are better than a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Every draft we all get excited about 20 guys the team selects. If 2 of them actually pan out to contributing pieces, you are doing alright.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:20 AM) Well, one thing's for sure, that team would be significantly cheaper and the younger core would be under control for a longer window and have the flexibility built in to make more additions. With Shields now onboard, and money already spent on Turner, Latos, Rollins and Danks more or less wasted, you're talking about a total waste of 1/4th of payroll. If your payroll is $120 million and 25%/$30 million is completely dead weight or literally not on the roster, and you just narrowly avoided another huge hit with LaRoche, who you didn't even want to come back in the first place, there's something seriously wrong in the evaluation process. No AL Central team other than the Tigers has the number of "bad contracts" the White Sox have piled up over the Hahn years. And the Tigers have the luxury of spending their way out of it. The Indians and Royals have much better prepared prospects and minor league systems to fill in the gaps when their regulars go down. We have a bunch of bargains from the latest dumpster dive, so the results of such a method of talent procurement shouldn't be particularly surprising to anyone. The Indians are paying Swisher and Bourne. The Royals have about $40 million tied up into players that are doing anything. When you come up with these percentages and silly conclusions, do you even think about what you are writing? There isn't a team around that isn't going to sign someone to a bad contract. If there was, they would be a team of guys making minimum and winning minimum apparently many on Soxtalk dream.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 07:43 AM) The thing is, in 2013 they were actually put together to compete for the division. Don't you remember the amazing Keppinger signing and retaining Peavy? The problem was, they were bad and had a manager in over his head. It wasn't until the trade deadline in 2013 that they sold off assets to bring in a few prospects (Avi and Montas). Yeah they signed Abreu in early 2014 and made trades for Eaton and Davidson but were they truly rebuilding? Looking back on it, it was nothing but a roster shake up for a few younger guys. In 2014, fans did not b**** about losing as we knew the mission was to continue to add younger pieces. The problem was 2015-- instead of staying the course, rebuild the farm and continue to add younger guys-- tohey decided to go for it! They sacrificed 1st and 2nd round draft picks and we all know how 2015 went-- disaster! So let's look back on everything: 2012- Supposed to compete for the division and do until collapse in September 2013- Supposed to compete for division-- end up being horrible--sell off assets at deadline 2014- A growing year for the new guys- focus on draft 2015- Risk draft picks to sign free agents and go for it prematurely which consequently set the team back and they were a complete disappointment (The Fire Robin chants begin) Decide NOT to trade assets at deadline-- total misjudgment by Hahn/KW 2016- Go for it again-- trade a talented outfielder in Thompson and a few others for Frazier and attempt to catch lightning in a bottle with guys like Rollins and Latos and bringing in mediocre younger guys like Lawrie and Jackson to put bandaids on a team with numerous holes. It worked in April and some of May, but now it's blowing up in their faces. This team is not good. And now we have even less talent in the farm. Let's not forget all the DFA's and the Shields deal which has been a complete disaster. Looking at the patterns of Hahn and KW, it's pretty disturbing seeing all the sidetracks they go on. To let's go for it, to adding young talent, to trading young talent to go for it again to not doing anything. The lack of a true direction is mind boggling. IMO they all need to go. Robin, Kenny and Hahn. They have failed to put together a team and system that can maintain sustainable success. The statement Hahn mentioned numerous times back in 2013 and '14 when the plan was to restock the team and system with younger talented players. 2012 was a surprise. They were not good in 2011 and brought back almost the same team minus Buehrle,I believe they set a record for rookie pitchers used, and faded down the stretch as guys like Sale ran out of gas, Pulie injuring his wrist,and Youkilis being banged up, 2013 thyey had hoped to build on it but it went south quickly. The Tyler Fowers era wasn't going as well as some predicted. They did exactly what you want them to do know, and blew it up. They goy Avi, who people were just as excited about then, as they are pissed off Trayce Thompson isn't here now. 2014 rebuilding year, didn't stop game threads from thinking they should be 145-17 at worst. The bottom line is whether they say they are trying to win or not, how much does it really matter? Would the team be so much better set for the long haul with Thompson and Semien still aoumd? I don't think so. White Sox fans are the only fans I know who think the team is doing them a favor if they don't try to win.

So because you think the Sox suck, the ideal thing to do is trade everyone away and because these players suck, teams will give you better players making less money, just because. If your goal is to have them suck , they are there. I don't know why you differentiate being trying to win and not trying to win. A bad record puts you in the same place. This isn't the Cubs who did most of their rebuild through some trades. You could trade Sale and Q and Rodon and Abreu and get some good prospects, but then what.? The Cubs spent half a billion on free agents. And even in a rebuild you will be pissed off. It was quite clear the Sox were rebuilding the second half of 2013 and 2014. That didn't seem to stop people from b****ing about losing . I actually think some people are afraid of the Sox ever being good.

I guess Coats isn't as good defensively as a lot believe.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 06:23 PM) That's REALLY the best "burn" you can come up with, lol? Guess you got me. Hopefully the orcs from Warcraft will just land on the field and wipe out the umpiring crew so everyone can go home and forget about baseball for 24 hours. Well, except for the media. Why? No one enjoys the Sox getting killed more than you. Just check your game thread post counts during losses vs. wins.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 06:21 PM) Fabian and Haber deserve to stay, fwiw. Buddy Bell has to be gone, just for his idiotic "feel good" conference calls about the farm system...can't take them anymore. Then don't listen to them. What do you think he is going to say that everyone sucks?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 06:21 PM) Fabian and Haber deserve to stay, fwiw. Buddy Bell has to be gone, just for his idiotic "feel good" conference calls about the farm system...can't take them anymore. What have they provided in a positive way?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 06:17 PM) When you would rather watch Paulino, Nestor Molina or Chris Marquez out there, you know things have taken a turn for the worse. Will throw in Zach Stewart for good measure. Did Chris Marquez ever play with Dan Coat?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2016 -> 06:00 PM) You can't realistically blame Don Cooper for this mess after the way Shields pitched for SD against the Mariners and the fact everyone in baseball could look at his peripherals and declining velocity and increased homers and see red flag signs flashing a mile away. The rotation's ERA is around 5.50 their last 25 games. The reliever cannot throw a strike. What is Cooper's job?

Don Cooper has gotten more mileage out of fixing Matt Thornton than any coach in major league history has out of fixing one player.

Desmomd Jennings

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 02:13 PM) Sands staying with the organization. Outrighted to Charlotte. I don't think he's in the same boat as Latos and Rollins. I believe he doesn't have the service time to refuse the outright after he cleared waivers.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 01:46 PM) Seems to me you are splitting hairs from a legal perspective. The Sox have so many investors no one has 50% +1. The reality is though he has the most ownership shares, he has the largest percentage AND he has the power to control the day to day operations in his contract. From a practical standpoint he is the "majority". 50% + 1 or not. Mark Then, by definition, they have no majority shareholder. If a majority was needed to do things, JR wouldn't have a rubber stamp even if he owned 49.9% of the team and the rest was shared by 500 people. He has a rubber stamp because of how the partnership was set up, not because of the size of the shares in his possession. He has always been able to run things even when his stake was lower than it is today. I had heard at one time the Fanning guy from Fanning Cadillac owned more shares than anyone.

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 01:46 PM) That is the type of thought process that is also like "we can't move _______ from LF to RF or from 3B to the OF because it will mentally be too tough for him do adjust both defensively and keep it up at the plate" I hate that thought process, its a loser's mentality. Just like when they brought up a possible pitchers HR derby. People ran around saying "no!! injury risk for my pitcher!" and Joe Maddon goes on Arrieta - I don't believe in that. These guys workout all year, take batting practice - they can hit a few balls. Not to change this into Joe Maddon - but that's exactly the mindset this organization needs. Shark sucked last year because of mechanics. Whatever. It's not because he had to face 9 batters instead of 8 batters. I agree. His streak before the deadline showed it wasn't the league.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 01:02 PM) Remember that taco stand in old Comiskey? I wonder what happened to those guys. Under the LF stands. It was like going to a hole in the wall in Pilsen.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 05:59 AM) But every team in the division can make that same argument, right? If the Tigers' bullpen hadn't completely imploded for a month and JD Martinez/Upton not gotten off to such terrible starts. If KC hadn't already had to use ten rookies, and not just put them on the roster, but nearly all receiving regular playing time. If Michael Brantley and Carrasco and Salazar hadn't gotten hurt, and Byrd and Almonte suspended for PEDs. If they hadn't lost 4/6 to the Twins when the other three teams had 0 or just 1 loss to them so far. In the end, we're probably exactly where we belong to be. And if they can, why does that make the White Sox this awful team with an awful owner, awful front office, awful manager, awful players? Sigh, a team that will get just about nothing their next TV deal. A team that has to move to San Antonio to sell cheap tacos in the concession stands. In other words, why do you praise all the other teams, and do nothing but say how awful and hopeless it is with the White Sox?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 11:59 AM) looks like maybe the worst 3 game stretch since 1950. And Sox have 3 of the worst 5! Rk Name Games IP H R ER ▾ BB SO HR ERA 1 James Shields 3 9.2 25 24 23 10 4 6 21.41 2 Jeremy Bonderman 3 13 24 23 23 7 4 6 15.92 3 Jeff Samardzija 3 15.1 23 22 22 6 9 5 12.91 4 Felipe Paulino 3 13 28 22 22 10 8 6 15.23 5 Sean O'Sullivan 3 14.2 30 19 18 3 8 6 11.05 To be fair, only 2 of the 3 for Shields were with the White Sox. Coop will fix 'em. Seems unreal there have only been 5 stretches of pitchers having an 11.00 ERA over 3 consecutive starts in the last 65 years.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 11:41 AM) Bulls have traded C Cameron Bairstow to the Pistons for G Spencer Dinwiddie. Gar making moves.

JR could own .01% of the team. He still has all the power. It has nothing to do with percentage of the team owned. If JR dies, the executor of his will gets the same control.