Dick Allen

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 08:43 AM) That's how we got Sale. Through the draft. Rodon may turn out to be one as well. KC won a WS with nothing close to an Ace. But they had a pen, depth, and no holes. Seattle has had an ace for years, and hasn't come close to the playoffs. As for Santana, yes the Twins prospects didn't turn out to be much; of course Santana declined the second he went to NY as well. He was still good with the Mets for a while, but not an ace. I guess it depends on your definition of close but Seattle missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2014.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 07:52 AM) A lot of you seem more worried about a perceived value than winning. This franchise has next to 0 position player talent and it isn't going to just appear out of nowhere. If anyone has a legit plan to make us a contender now and into the future that doesn't involve trading 1 of sale/Q or expanding the pay roll past $120M id love to see it. Because I've yet to see 1 yet. The great thing about posting trade, draft, and other signing ideas on a message board, is when your idea would work out, there is proof forever that you had or supported that idea. But what is even better is your bad ideas just go away like they never posted. In reality, you are stuck with your bad trade or bad signing or bad draft pick, or other bad idea if you where to do this for real. It is easy to say the White Sox will never be good, I also remember the mid 80s when people were saying you couldn't win NBA titles with the leading scorer in the league, that MJ didn't make his teammates better, and if the Bulls were serious about winning titles, trading a guy who it would have been impossible to get full value for, was the thing to do. No way is Chris Sale the baseball equivalent to MJ, but people here who want to trade him are doing so just for change sake not for team improvement sake. Once he is gone he is gone and if the prospects aren't as good as he was, you are in worse shape. I think if they were to deal in the reality of it all, the opinion of Sale needs to go by some would go away. If you go by Price and Greinke, teams in the open market would be willing to pay Sale about $20 million a year more the next 4 years than his contract calls for. How many players can you say that about? He is underpaid vs. the open market the next 4 years more money than what has been guaranteed in the biggest contract the White Sox have ever agreed. Expanding the payroll past $120 million seems a reasonable plan to get the team better. I don't know what the fascination is with some people of a $40 million payroll.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 01:27 AM) Bartolo Colon has pitched very well in to his early 40's, therefore pitchers in the U.S. must not be that good. Sorry my comps bother you so much. I suppose you are correct and this guy is a stud, and will get a boatload of money.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:42 PM) I frankly haven't looked into the situation much, but didn't Puig like push his sister? Its not like he cold clocked his GF in an elevator and dragged her across the floor knocked out or anything... Not saying he is a good guy. I've had very minimal interest in Puig since people started pushing for him this past Summer, but from the little I have heard of the situation, it doesn't seem quite fair to convict him a woman beater yet. That said, there may be more to the story that I haven't heard. He supposedly shoved her and won't be charged. It that is enough for me, and I really would have loved the Sox to get him, to say pass. What is next?

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:39 PM) Two prospects and filler. You guys are demanding at least three. And I didn't say its a necessity to trade Sale now. But if you don't plan on buying a bunch of players you should trade him for teams thirsty for SP if you can get 2 or 3 for sure starters back. If you plan on competing next year, be my guest and keep him. What I don't want is a situation which Seattle has with Felix Hernandez. Wasting his career away and years of competing away because you don't feel market value is not market value - to simply prove a point in other words. The guys the Twins got for Santana did not help them win games.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:28 PM) Apparently that's a severe underpayment by the Dodgers. You guys are also right, I shouldn't compare Santana with Sale because Santana was by far the best pitcher in baseball at the time of the trade and of his generation. You are funny. But the Twins did get Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber and some filler for him. Sure makes me think the Sox need to trade Sale ASAP for a similar package since he probably isn't the greatest pitcher of his generation, although he would be pitching for about half the money Santana pitched for four seasons.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:50 PM) Yep, this.^ The Sox banked on Samardzija pitching well and that they could extend Samardzija despite his insisting on going to FA. Oops! It didn't work out but the guy complaining doesn't like Lwrie because of his .300 OBP, but seems to think Semien and his .304 OBP with less power and 38 errors was tough to lose. Phew let is a catcher who cannot catch, and had some attitude issues. Bassist seems like the biggest loss to me, but the Sox have a First round pick and a lottery ticket in Ynoa. I didn't like the trade because I never thought much of the Shark. But if he pitched anywhere near what they thought, and the team actually played well, it would have been fine.

When Samardzija really sucked, right after the All Star break, that had zero to do with bad defense.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:30 PM) So instead of filling up two gaps with players who are cost controlled as well, are every day players, and top 10 prospects within the last year, you rather hold onto Sale? Yes. I have an absolute that is signed to a ridiculously cheap contract. 2 maybes don't equal that in any way. Sale has 4 years $47 million on his contract . JA Happ got 3 years and 36 million. Keep that in mind.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:06 PM) Sale's contract is maybe worth another top 5 prospect. You guys aren't even asking for that. You guys are asking for Seager, Pederson, Urias at minimum. There's no precedent for that. Hell, Atlanta is only asking for Pollock for Miller. Right. The fact is you are showing us why Chris Sale cannot be traded. We all are overvaluing the return because that is exactly what would have to happen for him to leave at this juncture. Pollock is pretty awesome. I would trad Q straight up for him myself.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:01 PM) You don't get a lot of mileage out of Asian players. a 2 year contract that could be 3 if some levels were met is the max I would offer this guy.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 03:13 PM) Japanese 3B Nobuhiro Matsuta of Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks has signed with the Legacy Agency. Peter Greenberg representing. https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/673231777461379073 Matsuta, 32, hit .290 with 35 HRs for NBP champions. Several big league clubs are interested. https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/673232217150214144 http://www.baseball-reference.com/register...id=matsud001nob A little long in the tooth. Iguchi put up a .903 OPS in Japan in 2013 as a 38 year old. If he is reasonably cheap, he is probably a better choice than David Freese.

QUOTE (dpd9189 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 03:42 PM) It wouldn't shock me if Shark bounced back but I'd still like to see him have one season where he's good in the 2nd half of the season. That's alot of dough for a guy who's traditionally only decent pre all star break. The way I look at it is maybe he has one good year or two good years. How anyone can conclude looking at his career he will be really good for most of this contract is really reaching IMO.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 01:07 PM) Well that doesn't really describe the Giants, but it did work out for the '09 Yankees. It worked for Boston. But you aren't going to be able to do it unless you spend a lot of money.

He really has only had 1 stellar season as a starting pitcher. I wouldn't want to owe him 90 million.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 12:19 PM) So does this mean we get the Giants pick at 19, or could it change with other free agents? They drop out of the first round, as does every team that doesn't have a protected pick and signs a QO guy. The Sox are 3 right now in the order after the typical first round. Of course if the Sox sign a QO guy, they lose this pick.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 12:12 PM) Deal is official for Jeff and the Giants. 5 years/90 million. There's our comp pick But he had $100 million on the table.

a big park and getting to pitch to pitchers should help him out. That didn't work out so well, but a comp pick is better than nothing.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 10:14 AM) I bet this deal happens this week. I am not willing to bet my house though. Don't know who would go to Oakland. If you would have bet Greg earlier, you would have had his house to play with. I do think your bet makes a lot of sense.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 10:46 AM) I hate seeing the comments that say the Sox should trade Sale because of his "injury concerns". How is he that different from any other pitcher? Yeah, he has a funky motion, but he's so tall and lanky that I don't think it's as bad for his elbow/arm/shoulder as people make it out to be. People have said that he's a TJ surgery waiting to happen since the day he was drafted, and nothing significant has happened to him yet. Knock on wood that nothing ever does. Every pitcher is a significant injury risk. It is just a matter of time. I read something many years ago that everyone's hair eventually turns gray. You might not live long enough for it to happen, but it would eventually happen. I feel the same way with pitchers and elbows and shoulders. Not many make it through a long career unscathed.

Re Glavine The stuff that he was getting several inches off the plate his entire career(4 inches in this thread) doesn't seem to line up with actual facts. I read an article about him a year or so ago and they didn't have the tools they do now regarding pitch track. Ques Tech came in when he was 35 and suddenly he had a bad year. Many thought that was proof of the advantage he supposedly had, but he was 35 and the next season he bounced back with a career normal season. He also was in less than 50 percentile during his peak of called strikes per pitch. He worked low and away to everyone, but if he was getting 4 inches, he would have had a lot higher called strike percentages. To think pitch framing isn't a useful skill worth something is just being naive and Flowers sucks no matter what. Is it as valuable as some think, and take Flowers from a 0.4 WAR to a 2.0, that is very debatable and I would probably side on no. A lot of it has to do with when you are getting the calls, and obviously the pitcher has a lot to do with it. 1 inch off the plate vs. 2 inches or an inch and a half could make all the difference. I didn't like pitch framing for a while because there were a couple of different lists, and they, for the most part, weren't very consistent with the same players. A couple of years a go, Flowers was really good, not elite in one, and horrible on another. But they seem to be a bit more in tandem now. All that said, the White Sox catching with Flowers is probably average. It wasn't the reason they lost, it wasn't the reason they won. The change most likely won't make it elite, but average seems to be reasonable, and Navarro makes a lot of contact. Try something new. If it doesn't work out, it isn't like they can't find another mediocre guy to throw back there. My Flowers fandom is probably pretty opposite of many. I wasn't too thrilled when he was handed the job, but despite being really bad in stretches, he basically gave the White Sox what most teams get behind the plate, so I didn't think a change was definitely necessary. I would have hated if they threw some prospects at Jason Castro last year. But they changed it up without trading any prospect or really paying more money. It is worth a shot. Good luck to Tyler.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 09:20 AM) I think it's more likely that the Dodgers dump Crawford for nothing than Ethier. Ethier was actually good for them last year. You guys think LaRoche and an A-baller for Crawford and cash (with Dodgers dumping LaRoche to free agency) get it done? I don't see why the Dodgers or White Sox would want to do that.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 03:14 PM) Overwhelming in that they gave that up and more for a closer. 2013 Archie Bradley Michael Wacha 2014 Nick Castellanos Alen Hanson 2015 Archie Bradley JT Realmuto Getting that kind of package back for a guy that plays a 100 innnings a year is a win every time. I didn't look at the 2013-2015. But 2013 for sure. The others are maybes. In 3 or 4 years you will be able to tell if the other 2 would have been worth it. Besides Wacha and Santana, there isn't a lot that have helped major league teams win games. Selling prospects is a lot like shorting options. You can do really well a lot of the time, but when it bites you on the ass, it really bites you on the ass.

QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 02:43 PM) ok, lets think about this, the sox will never get the prospect / players that will warrant what many will think is a fair price. i believe we can all agree to that. now i am looking at the playoff. that first game is, in many opinions, is crucial. it helps set the way the series may go. more importantly, it will give that team a huge boost. now all team will put there best pitcher there. the true, elite #1 sp on the team to take on the other teams #1 sp. it is a battle of the arms to put it mildly. for us, it is Sale, not Q and not Rodon. it is Sale. Oh, they can get a ton of ranked prospects. The problem is, you can't trade Chris Sale for prospects and have those prospects bust. Like the Reed/Davidson trade where the line "I'd make that trade 10 times out of 10" was invented. That can't happen for Sale or Q or Rodon. People b****ed and moaned KW traded not so good prospects and got some major league value back. Trading prospects who turn into tremendous major leaguers for more maybes is a way to keep your team bad for a long time.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 02:29 PM) I just saw an overwhelming prospect deal for a closer a week ago. Those days are not over, actually I think things are going to start moving more in that direction again since you have a few teams with such a large concentration of prospects that are trying to win now (Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs). Boston traded the 25th and 76th rated prospects plus 2 other guys. Overwhelming you say. Reality 2009 25th rated prospect Brian Matusz 76th rated prospect Clint Negoette 2010 25th Carlos Santana 76th Roberto Hernandez 2011 Archie Bradley Jt Realmuto 2012 Archie Bradley Casey Kelly Overwhelming if you like what Phil Rogers rates your minor league system. Pretty underwhelming if you are trying to make your team better.