iamshack

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 07:00 PM) Cleveland has been marching through young players too, and a lot of them stepped up this year. Not trying to knock Martinez here, just sayin'. Indeed they did, but I think it's been more of the culture in TB than in Cleveland. I don't know enough about Sandy or Martinez to really make the most informed decision, but just going off of what we do know, I just like what Martinez brings to the party a bit more.

The reading comprehension jokes are f***ing lame. Snarky comments like that are funny like the first 3 times you use them, then by the time every internet dork is using them, they're just plain f***ing annoying. They're right up there with the "So and so sucks at baseball" line. It's pretty obvious the Bears have been an above-average defensive team in a League where the passing game and offense are king. This has been the case for the better part of the last 5 years. This obviously tends to make the Packers, and their pass-heavy offense and talented run of quarterbacks seem like the cat's meow. Just as an aside, I think it helps that they actually have a decent playing surface, but I digress. Meanwhile, the Bears have tried to make the transition on the run, but have done so without having all the necessary ingredients in place. It tends to spoil the whole dish. One thing to consider though...and we always remember best what we saw last, should the Bears beat the Packers in the final regular season game last year, the 2010 installment of the Packers gets remembered as a team that couldn't run the ball enough to win consistently.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 06:35 PM) There's a huge difference in experience, neither has been a manager obviously but one of them was a bench coach for 4 years on a team that won 2 division titles, a Wild Card and a Pennant. The other has 2 years experience as a first base coach in the city of Cleveland and 2 years as a catching instructor with the Mets before that. I have nothing against Sandy, I don't think he'd be reserved at all, he could be a fine manager and if he gets the job I won't be upset but the prospects of Dave Martinez just excite me significantly more. It mostely has to do with my love of Joe Maddon, that guy is all kinds of special. Another thing is Martinez's experience with young players. The Rays, as everyone knows, are built from a nucleus of young players and more and more are continually shuffled through their system and into the Big League roster. His experience in understanding how to work with young players, how to incorporate their talent and skills into the team instead of trying to incorporate the team into their players...that is what excites me. Martinez, by almost all accounts, should be everything Ozzie was not, on a lot of levels. Nothing against Sandy, but that's why I'd rather have Dave Martinez.

Yeah, it's the day after he stepped down...what do you expect people to say? Bottom line is he is paid to keep the hitters hitting and they did not hit well.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 05:11 AM) But supposedly it was said SOMEWHERE that he would get at least 2 seasons to clean this mess up...yes? I think he actually implied that himself, yes.

I usually don't have a team I cheer for in the AL since I dislike all of them from playing against them enough over the years. I'll probably cheer for the Brewers, since they don't really have a postseason pedigree, but have been around long enough to experience failure in large doses like my team...

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 02:40 AM) So KW just has a "fill-in-the-blank" contract for at least two years, possibly three? Wish things would be a bit more defined with his situation than what we have now. He has a fill in the blank contract every year.

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 01:04 AM) The only thing anyone talks about here is how this team always falls on its face late in the season, so naturally we should sign a manager that just had one of the worst fails in baseball history.. What exactly have the Red Sox done since their last World Series? The exact same as we have pretty much.. Oh right, exactly... Honestly, people need to stop equating talented Managers and FO executives with winning a title in the previous three years. That basically means there are only about 10 people in the entire industry that have a clue what they're doing... And if that were the case, do you really think their current employers would ever let them go?

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 02:00 AM) Yeah I know he has been pushing for that, but I think that was more about wanting to be wanted here than just about getting more money.. He wanted to have security of being manager here for the foreseeable future.. He didn't need to plead for anything as the Marlins job was waiting for him regardless.. Once he knew that he was no longer welcome here, he pretty much left on the spot.. He got a 4 year deal in the $12 million dollar range, that cant be substantially better than what he was already making here.. I don't think it's fair to equate not getting an extension after this season to not being welcome here. Again, not getting offered an extension after this season and being fired are two very different things.

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 12:47 AM) Also, why do this with two games left in the season? To me, it reeks of "Oh, you don't want me here? Then im taking my ball and going home" Have you not been reading the headlines? Ozzie has been saying for weeks now that he wanted to have his contract situation resolved before he took his vacation with his wife immediately following the season. He's been lobbying for an extension for a month now. It's pretty clear that he wanted more money, and determined he was going to try and get it from Jerry first, and then if Jerry wouldn't pony up, he would plead for his release so that he could get it from the Marlins. Had he just shut his mouth, I think he would have been back, at least to start next year, under the terms of his current contract. I'm not sure how long of a leash he would have had, but I truly don't believe Jerry had any desire to fire Ozzie.

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 12:18 AM) Honestly, I think Ozzie just made all that bulls*** up on the spot to make it look like he wasn't getting fired (Which he would have anyways had he not asked to be released) but he was leaving because he wanted to.. It was pretty evident someone was leaving, and it wasn't going to be KW.. To me it just seemed like Ozzie wanted to make it look like he just decided he wanted out instead of getting canned.. I'm not sure this is the case, actually.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 12:17 AM) Well, not exactly. Let's think of KW as a regional sales director and Ozzie as his top salesman and marketing "face of the company." If 10 other things go wrong with the sales operation that have absolutely nothing to do with the top salesman, then the leader has to take responsibility. Of course, some will argue KW and Ozzie were "equal" or KW never had the authority...which isn't without precedent, if you look at the Yankees under Steinbrenner or the Loria situation with managers down in FLA. I don't think ANYONE would say (and Greg hasn't) that Ozzie doesn't bear some degree of fault or responsiblity. The irritation might simply be that KW "handled things better" or "brown-nosed" or "kissed butt" and just because he was the lesser of two evils, that in and of itself wasn't a reason for him to be retained as well. KW did publicly try to blame Ozzie over the Thome decision. That type of discussion should have stayed in-house. I'm never going to argue that Guillen hasn't done MORE awful/egregious things that in and of themselves would be fireable offenses. The only problem I have is this whole b.s. notion of "rebuilding" and Williams actually being able to execute this vision when it goes against everything he's been taught and trained to do philosophically here in Chicago, which is to give his team a "good chance" at being competitive each and every year. The whole complacency behind giving him ANOTHER 2-3 years to clean up this mess, I don't think he deserves so much rope to hang himself, but that's just me. But Ozzie is more like Steve Alford than anyone I can think of, he's all about himself, his brand, and what's best for him. And I worry that the fate of the White Sox the next 3-5 years won't be very different from what's transpired with my former university's basketball program. Irrelevant. Occasional bright glimpses of the future and inspirational play, but nothing sustained and not even a glimmer of hope of making it to the post-season. They might be "doing things the right way" but that doesn't sell tickets, either. And they quickly got rid of an NCAA Coach of the Year in Todd Lickliter, he barely made it through 3 years before things got MUCH worse than they were under Alford, because apathy REALLY set in, people stopped caring and tuned out completely. That's what Greg and some of the others like Victory and Marty will happen with Ozzie gone. Unfortunately, it's a risk JR felt he had to take. I don't see how you can claim that Kenny isn't taking any responsibility here. Greg is arguing that Kenny should be fired on the basis of his inability to have a productive relationship with Ozzie Guillen. One could argue a lot of reasons that Kenny should be fired. I'm not sure if I could think of a worse one than his inability to work well with Ozzie Guillen the last few seasons.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 11:00 PM) But that's how the average Boston fan thinks. They truly believe that they are more deserving of championships than other teams. Colin Cowherd mentioned something last week about how Boston watches fewer National sports than any other market in the country. They are absolutely obsessed with their own teams, but hardly watch other teams when they are on National broadcasts. They just don't give a s*** about anything other than themselves.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 12:22 AM) Hasn't the Congress Hotel been thrown around as an idea? EDIT: for the casino. The old post office building is right over by the Congress Hotel...the idea was definitely to put it right over in that area.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 12:31 AM) It makes a lot of sense. KW hired that asshat. He did. Or Jerry did. Whatever. Kenny technically hired Ozzie and said publicly he was his "boss." Jerry told the two late last season or after last season to do better and make it work. It takes two to not tango. KW is just as much to blame of the fallout with Ozzie as Ozzie. You are totally taking KW's side on that?? So basically, if I don't like my boss, and I know I am on my way out the door soon, I can just create a situation which is unworkable or impossible for my boss or coworker to coexist in and thereby get him fired? Assanine.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 11:29 PM) 1.) Good question. The problem is most of the stuff he says doesn't ever bother me because I think he is like a comedian, he puts on a show for the media. That money thing to me was like a stand up comedy act. I swear, whenever I listen to interviews, like 17 full minutes on mlb.com I hear a gracious Ozzie. What would he have to say? Well, it'd have to be in a setting where I believe he means what he says instead of is putting on a comedy act. I guess if he said in a 1-1 interview with ESPN that he hates all his players including Mark and Konerko and thinks all Chicago fans are full of s*** I guess I would start to hate him. 2.) OK I am in Jerry's shoes. Fair question. I think I stated in a few other threads weeks ago that if Ozzie got canned even he would think he deserved to be canned. And in one interview I saw he said indeed he didn't deserve to be here next year. He said, 'I didn't earn it," or something like that. But to answer your question ... If I am in Jerry's shoes, because I told the two of them they had to get along, they had to behave, they had to work together ... and because the two did not work together, I would replace both of them. They did not make it work. They blew it. And deep down they would know they both deserved to be fired. Now you imply that it would be easy for Jerry to keep Kenny because he offered to step down and Ozzie kept asking for more years and a raise. I might argue that he did it through the media and was "Ozzie being Ozzie." If in a 1-1 meeting with me, Jerry, Ozzie was that belligerent and/or cocky about getting a raise and more years, then yes I would fire him. But his media persona is quite different I am assuming than when he meets with Jerry. The bottom line is I know Ozzie deserved to get fired. But I think KW did too because of the fact the two of them COULD NOT AND WOULD NOT work together. I think both should be out the door. My desire to keep Ozzie as you all know stems from the fact I think he learned on the job here and is still young and will have a Hall of Fame career as a manager. I hate the fact he learned on the job here and now will be managing elsewhere. He got one title here, I think he'd have gotten more. Did he deserve to get fired? Yes. This year's April/May was inexcusable (even with Dunn n Rios) but KW also should be gone. If you have any other specific questions I will answer them as well. So let me get this straight...if you are tasked to work with some complete asshat at work, and you cannot, that means that you should be fired along with the asshat? What the hell kind of sense does that make?

Hmm, odds on hiring Francona may have just increased.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 08:15 PM) Haha yea this. So my apartment is thinking of doing kind of a date night this Sunday. We (I) always grill every sunday, so we were going to have all the girls that each of us are seeing or want to see over and grill outside with them, then do something like bowling and finish up with smores outside again. Lame or good idea? Screw bowling...keep the activities outdoors and do not interrupt the flow of alcohol under any circumstances. I say grill, play bags or horseshoes, beer pong, maybe a little card or drinking game going on on the deck, followed up by the smores and storytime kind of thing once everyone is full and warm and tipsy...

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 09:29 PM) So basically you think that Rios could be made to care by someone else? Because I just dont think that hes that type of person.. regardless, I do think that it was Ozzies time to go and I am not trying to defend him.. It's not just Rios...it's the general malaise of the team over the course of the last several August/Septembers. We never seemed like a team that had any kind of killer instinct or win or die trying attitude (despite our marketing department's heavy use of the phrase).

I think he's done a decent job. We've gotten to a Super Bowl and an NFC Championship game in the last handful of years. There are probably, what, 5-6 other GMs who can make that claim?

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 09:22 PM) im not saying its not his job, im just saying that because he cant make Rios care about baseball hes not to fault.. there are just some people who cant be reached I disagree that it is not his fault. It might not be a fireable offense, but it's certainly proof of another arrow missing from Ozzie's quiver. Eventually you look around and realize there are other guys out there with a whole lot more to offer than the guy you currently employ.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 09:13 PM) Sox wanted Logan Morrison, but Marlins were just going to hire Bobby V then http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/...or-guillen.html Should have called their bluff. Then if they did hire Valentine, fired Ozzie later that same day. Would have cost them a few million, but it might have been worth it

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 10:04 PM) No, I understand what you were doing with Greg there this is just a different frustrastion with me that KW is still going to be the GM of this team, which I just dont understand.. As far as the Rios argument goes, how much someone cares about something isnt going to be decided by someone else.. you either have the desire to be great and are willing to work for it, or you dont.. I could hang out with Bobby Flay for the next year, hes not going to make me give a s*** about cooking.. I'm not saying motivating Rios is all on Ozzie, because it's not...but come on...to say that motivating your team is not part of a manager's job is just making excuses. I understand these guys are grown men, and I understand they are professionals making millions of dollars, but there are certain leaders, whether they are baseball managers or football coaches or supervisors in a fast food restaurant, that inspire their employees to give a little more. Ozzie certainly never appeared to be someone with this gift, regardless of how well-liked he might have been by his players. As for Kenny and his willingness to step down, I tend to agree with what I think you are trying to point out in that just because Kenny may understand how to manipulate his boss a bit better than Ozzie, that does not excuse his culpability here. But the difference is Kenny was willing to continue trying here while Ozzie was not. Maybe it had something to do with Ozzie being wanted elsewhere and that not being the case with Kenny, but I suppose we will never know for sure.

QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) How is that even possible? They are all KW's players.. Ozzie didnt do anything to make Adam Dunn flop, Jake Peavy fall apart, and Rios to not give a s***.. there was nothing that could be done about that.. Yes, who saw it coming.. I know.. However, they were still moves that didnt work out at all.. I dont think I need to bring up Dan Hudson.. KW should have been relieved of his Gm duties just as much as Ozzie should have been relieved of his manager duties.. I dont see what changes with this team now.. You're conveniently bypassing the fact that neither of them would have been let go had they both been willing to continue to work together in their current roles and under their current contracts. This is not a case of one being fired; this is a case of one refusing to honor his contract and another being perfectly happy to honor his.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 08:08 PM) Huh? The Yankees are winning. Big. They simply had to do the opposite of the Bears should have done to achieve the same goal. Lose this game to help eliminate the Red Sox from the playoffs. This game means nothing to them. That being said, I'm not sure the theory at this point isn't to try to eliminate the Rays and their much stronger pitching staff than the Red Sox and their incredibly struggling staff...