Texsox

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 05:52 PM) That is an impossible question to answer. We know that zero was too few. The positives far outweigh the negatives. No, we know that two was too many. That is an absolute fact. He doesn't have a gun those people are probably alive. We can debate whether a few more people also firing would have added to, or subtracted from, the total.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 05:35 PM) A piece of data probably worth adding to this discussion...in 2005, according to the FBI, there were a total of 5 murders on college campuses nationwide. That seems low. Glad to hear it, with my son packing off to school in a few months.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 05:06 PM) Again, you assume that everyone in the class or school is packing heat. Even in the most gun crazy of states, that would not be true. While the gun laws vary from state to state, not everyone can get a gun, and not everyone who has a gun can get a concealed carry permit. So how many, would have been too many, in this instance?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 02:25 PM) Let me put it this way...I think that emergency management involves a specific set of skills that not necessarily every good manager would have. You have to be able to coordinate sudden shifts in everything under you, have half of your people out of contact, not know which information you're receiving is credible, and still manage to follow your procedures. With experience, I think that a lot of good managers would become good at that job. But I wouldn't want to just give it to a good manager if that manager had no experience in dealing with exactly that sort of crisis situation, even if that good manager was the richest man in the world. Anywho, it's not like we even got good managers into those jobs, so dah well. All things I agree with. I was thinking more in generalities, for example, I could see the CIA Chief coming from outside the Agency.

This is getting no where, so one post and I will probably shut up unless someone has a question. The scenarios I see with more and more people carrying. Guy robs a C-store waving a gun around. he's not planning to shoot anyone, (stats show there are more armed robberies that shootings). Cashier hands him the cash and off he goes. With more guns, he waves the gun and some good Samaritan pulls out a weapon and shoots, maybe they hit him, maybe not. The robber also starts to shoot, maybe he hits someone, maybe he doesn't. You see someone stopping this guy at VT before he killed more, maybe their shot(s) hit the mark, maybe more bullets flying results in more people getting hit. I see good Samaritans shooting while diving for cover and from too long a range to be accurate. So I see the potential for more deaths and injuries as well as the potential for less. I see more road rage turning ugly, not less, with more guns in people's hands. I see more domestic violence with more guns, not less. I see parents showing their kids by example that we should be afraid of everybody and violence is the answer. Deer and doves should fear me, others should not. Paper and clay are endangered around me, people are not. I believe the framers of the Constitution were smart enough to know they could not envision the world in 200 years and put in the ability to make changes. They also wisely made it very difficult.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 02:03 PM) That's life. If I'm not armed and its the gunman, I'm dead anyway with no hope of defending myself. So as soon as you pull your gun as a good Samaritan, anyone, even one other good Samaritan, could shoot you and thems the breaks. You may or not be dead. Not everyone in that building was killed or even shot. Do I like the scenario of someone seeing him pull his gun and immediately killing the gunman with only one loss of life? Of course. But I am very uneasy about six or seven people pulling weapons and starting to shoot. I know what training is involved in Texas' carry training and what police officers receive. I'll stand on the side of law enforcement on this one. But of course law enforcement may be the evil tyranny we need to fight.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 01:56 PM) I think that the Clinton administration is actually a good example. When Clinton came into office, it was shortly after Bush 1 had been criticized for the Federal Government's poor response to Hurricane Andrew. So when Clinton came in, he brought with him someone who not only he could trust, but who had experience in disaster managment; the guy who held the emergency management position in Arkansas with him, James Lee Witt. I'm not saying they were good picks, just saying that industry experience alone doesn't make or break a candidate. I like William Gates, and think there were any number of agencies he could have run.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 01:47 PM) Quit going to such crazy extremes for situations you know never exist. It dilutes what little credible argument you have. Noone argued anywhere that everyoone should be able to carry a gun. You and Tex made those assumptions in your fear-based statements. Southside irish raised the best points so far, without resorting to gross exagerations. I mentioned a dozen carrying in that building. At what point would there have been too many guns in that building? BTW, have could you add some links to children who have died playing with guns they have found? People who have had their own guns taken and killed with them. Depressed people who have shot themselves. You have to take the good with the bad in stats. As I said, I don't see effective home security with a locked up gun that needs to be unlocked and loaded. Leaving a loaded, unlocked gun with one in the chamber around for that split second when you need to defend your family versus the chance that one of my kids might find it and use it had me deciding for me and my family, I'd be better off with a home security system. QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:33 AM) No, I sure as hell don't. And if he makes a move at me, I fire. I will protect my own life (and the lives of my family) at all costs and above all others. So you don't drop yours when he yells drop it. And if he is an good Samaritan thinking just like you, and shoots you first, will you later shake his hand and say, hell yes, exactly what I would have done? Or perhaps have your wife tell him that at your funeral.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 01:48 PM) Bush's first FEMA director, Joe Allbaugh, hired Mr. Brown originally at FEMA after he was fired from his horse trading job. Mr. Allbaugh came into that role with a very strong emergency management background; his main job beforehand was as head of Mr. Bush's 2000 election campaign. The 2 of them together presided over the rapid decline of FEMA from a professional organization that was constructed during the Clinton years to the joke we saw trying to respond to Katrina. Allbaugh left in 2003 to make a personal fortune by starting a company dedicated to helping other companies make money by getting contracts in Iraq. To be fair, a good manager doesn't exactly need industry specific skills. I'll take Bill Gates running a horse farm over a lot of people with experience. But, these guys maight have been over their heads running agencies that large.

I think he is great for America. Very few people can unite Dems and Reps like he can. Who here doesn't think he's the lowest form of human garbage that hasn't committed a crime, yet?

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 11:54 AM) I actually think that Bush's biggest responsibility for Katrina that he failed on was before it happened - nominating a political cronie with zero EM background to head up FEMA. Yeah, that one bit him in the ass. Do we know who below Bush championed that pick? I assume Bush didn't do all the research on this.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 11:13 AM) So then change the constitution, not laws. I know the whole "the framers couldn't have imagined.." arguement gets made, but that works both ways. Do you think the framers ever invisioned the impact that things like computers and cellphones would have on society? Do you think the framers ever invisioned women and/or blacks as equals? Do you think they ever thought women would be wanting to kill fetuses? If there is a problem, the constitution needs to change. If people think they are safer without guns, then they need to start working on a new consitutional ammendment, just like they did when they figured out that discrimination was wrong, even when constitutionally protected. I think we are agreeing, you did see the y'all aren't taking my gun away statement? I think the framers of the constitution were brilliant. In all of history it is arguably the second best written document. (insert your Bible here for number one). I think they created a living document that has proven the test of time by being flexible. When they wrote the Constitution, I couldn't imagine how most lived without a gun. Feeding yourself would have been difficult on the frontier. Native Americans and buffalo may disagree but they tamed the west as much as the steel plow. Today, I'm not convinced the framers would have built in the same protections. They are not necessary for survival.

Ok, no booing, can we laugh our asses off when he swings and misses?

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 11:05 AM) I can't blame the Rangers fans. The trade looks worse and worse everyday (for them). They are use to that . . . ^--- Ranger fans

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:42 AM) That that was ED, lol. In the Phillipines, the street vendors sell Viagra and Cialis...I've heard that a few men in their 50's and 60's have actually had heart attacks due to the use of "street Viagra." Luckily, I'm 37 and haven't had to go that route. The fastest growing age bracket with Aids is over 60, they call it the Viagra effect. Seems the old guys are turning to hookers when the ladies their age can't keep up with them. B-Mac will be fine in a season or two.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:51 AM) What is interesting about this debate is that our constitutional rights aren't always the path of least resistance for government entities. Look at the attempts to limit free speech in the name of saving us from terror for example. It would be much easier for law enforcement to fight crime and terror if they could read everyone's emails, and listen to everyone's phone calls without worry, but they can't. The freedom of speech is protected, dispite the burden is places on law enforcement. For me the right to bear arms isn't any different. It might create bad situations, but this is a constitutionally protected right. As was the right for white men, and only white men to vote. The framers also put in a mechanism for amending the constitution when it no longer meets our needs. It would be nice if they wrote in reasons for some of this stuff, like perhaps why there is a 2nd Amendment Just wondering, y'all that think more people carrying would cut down on crime, does it matter the nationality of the gun owner?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:15 AM) I'll be reading the Trib on the train ride home. It is strange that he would file the numbers off of a legally obtained gun Perhaps he thought at one point he would get away and didn't want the guns traced to him?

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:37 AM) Look at the verbiage. It doesn't state that you must be part of a militia. It gives a reason for giving people the right to own guns, not a condition. The rights still belong to individuals, not groups or militias. And now you believe they thought that you should be able to go into McDonalds with a concealed weapon? They envisioned a day with Atomic weapons, mega shopping malls, and thought, hey we better put something in here to allow everyone to have a weapon? You can't convince me that they could foresee today's environment. They could foresee the need for an Army against foreign invaders and would want a militia against them. They could foresee needing guns for food and probably from the native savages, and I'll even give you they thought you would need one to take up arms against a tyrannical US government. If their reasoning was to protect against government tyranny, what would they have written today? Citizens should be allowed weapons equal to whatever the military has? The reason I should be allowed to own a firearm is I am not a criminal and use it responsibly. I do not believe more guns in the hands of average citizens and readily available will make us less violent. In fact, I believe just the opposite. Criminals don't give a rip about penalties and gun violence. Gang bangers all ready live in a world where a rival gang could drive by and take them out.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:07 AM) If you forget about the hour and a half of wait time, I actually had two really good customer service instances with the IRS last night. Gee, where they busy? QUOTE(shipps @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 10:30 PM) Have you ever took like a pound of cheese melted in the microwave and ate it alone?Oh how I love the bachelors life. A Complicated Song Uh huh, extra cheese. Uh huh, uh huh, save a piece for me. Pizza party at your house, I went just to check it out. 19 extra larges, What a shame, no one came. Just us, eatin' all alone, You said take the pizza home. No sense lettin' all this go to waste, So then I faced Pizza all day, and everyday, there's cheese round the clock, It's gettin' me blocked, And I sure don't care the irregularity. Tell me, Why'd you have to go and make me so constipated Cause right now I'd do anything to just get my bowels evacuated, In the bathroom. I sit and I wait and I strain and I sweat and I clench and I feel the pain Oh, should I take laxatives or have my colon irrigated. No, no, no. I was feelin' pretty down, 'Til my girlfriend came around. We're just so alike in every way, I gotta say. In fact, I just thought I might, pop the question there that night. I was kissing her so tenderly, But woe is me. Who would uh guessed, her family crest. I suddenly spy, tattoo'd on her thigh. And son of a gun, it's just like the one on me. Tell me. How was I supposed to know we were both related? Believe me if I knew she was my vousin we never would of dated. What to do now? Should I go ahead and propose and get hitched and have kids with 11 toes, And move to Alabama where that kind of thing is tolerated. No, no, no. (no no no) I had so much on my mind, I thought maybe I'd unwind. Try out that new roller coaster ride, And the guide... Said not to stand but that's a demand, That I couldn't meet, I got on my feet, And stood up instead and knocked off my head you see. Tell me. Why'd I have to go and get myself decapitated? This really is a major inconvenience, oh man I really hate it. It's such a drag now. can't eat, I can't breathe, I can't snore, I can't belch or yodel anymore, Can't spit or blow my nose or even read Sports Illustrated. Oh no! Why'd I have to go and get myself all mutilated? (yeah yeah) I gotta tell ya, life without a head kinda makes me irritated. What a bummer. I can't blink, I can't cough, I can't sneeze. But my neck is enjoying a pleasant breeze now. Haven't been the same since my head and I were separated. No, no, no.

So they just mentioned well regulated militia being necessary, but it doesn't have any bearing on why they thought you should be able to carry a loaded weapon while grocery shopping or attending class. Like I said before, y'all aint taking my guns, but the constitutional argument and home safety when kids are involkved doesn't hold weight with me.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:06 AM) What laws are currently on the books in states with concealed carry? It seems like we have plenty of real-world evidence to go on instead of all of these straw-men fantasy events. When have rambo's gotten in the way of police? Killed the wrong person instead of the murderer? etc. etc. Do you drop it when he yells drop it? You said if the guy doesn't drop, you will shoot. Should he shoot you if you don't drop it? You could be charged with manslaughter, is that fair? We also have real world evidence that violent crimes are rising, is that because of concealed carry laws? I'm repeating what most police officers say, they enter a building with multiple gunmen, some innocent, some guiilty, and it makes the situation worst. Disagree if you want. I'll take law enforcement on my side. But I'm a law and order type who respects the police, not some wimpy liberal who dislikes law and order. QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:24 AM) Yes. They were well aware of the threats of tyranny, having just staged a rebellion. The 2nd Amendment doesn't require a well-regulated militia by law for gun ownership. It says that well-regulated militias are necessary and therefore people have the right to bear arms. It does not say that you must be part of a militia in order to bear arms. Care to tackle well regulated militia and how that applies to you and your gun? I assume then that you are part of a militia against any government tyranny and ready to take on Nuke and his weapons. How brave of you, good luck.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 16, 2007 -> 07:03 PM) And the whole point of the 2nd amendment is that we can't trust the government. Really. The government added the 2nd amendment against themselves? How about a well regulated militia. What does regulated and militia mean to you? What militia will you be a part of? How will you be regulated?

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:03 AM) People with concealed carry permits know how to handle a gun. They're not just a bunch of untrained boobs. What if some sort of police-style training was given in order to get the permit? Shout "drop it!" and if he makes an offensive-looking move, open up. Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations? So they can respond several minutes after the situation begins and after 32 people have been shot to death? When he yells drop it, do you? And what punishment, if any, do you deserve if you kill a good Samaritan? QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:02 AM) It's not that easy to get a concealed carry permit, so not every wacko you may bump into would be packing. it costs money, background checks and time. Your scenerios of doom are just fantasies. I wonder how long it will be until we get some new, knee-jerk legislation regarding this incident? I have one, anyone else here take the class?

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 09:49 AM) One person sitting in a classroom firing back at the wacko who just busted in the door, guns blazing, is pretty distinguishable. Do you give the guy who just busted in the door a chance to shoot? Is he the shooter intent on killing you or is he a good Samaritan coming to protect you? thinkquick, you've been hiding in that classroom waiting for your chance. He's COMING FOR YOU! Save everyone!! Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations? If you make a mistake, and kill someone, what, if any, punishment should you receive?