Texsox

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:37 AM) Look at the verbiage. It doesn't state that you must be part of a militia. It gives a reason for giving people the right to own guns, not a condition. The rights still belong to individuals, not groups or militias. And now you believe they thought that you should be able to go into McDonalds with a concealed weapon? They envisioned a day with Atomic weapons, mega shopping malls, and thought, hey we better put something in here to allow everyone to have a weapon? You can't convince me that they could foresee today's environment. They could foresee the need for an Army against foreign invaders and would want a militia against them. They could foresee needing guns for food and probably from the native savages, and I'll even give you they thought you would need one to take up arms against a tyrannical US government. If their reasoning was to protect against government tyranny, what would they have written today? Citizens should be allowed weapons equal to whatever the military has? The reason I should be allowed to own a firearm is I am not a criminal and use it responsibly. I do not believe more guns in the hands of average citizens and readily available will make us less violent. In fact, I believe just the opposite. Criminals don't give a rip about penalties and gun violence. Gang bangers all ready live in a world where a rival gang could drive by and take them out.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:07 AM) If you forget about the hour and a half of wait time, I actually had two really good customer service instances with the IRS last night. Gee, where they busy? QUOTE(shipps @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 10:30 PM) Have you ever took like a pound of cheese melted in the microwave and ate it alone?Oh how I love the bachelors life. A Complicated Song Uh huh, extra cheese. Uh huh, uh huh, save a piece for me. Pizza party at your house, I went just to check it out. 19 extra larges, What a shame, no one came. Just us, eatin' all alone, You said take the pizza home. No sense lettin' all this go to waste, So then I faced Pizza all day, and everyday, there's cheese round the clock, It's gettin' me blocked, And I sure don't care the irregularity. Tell me, Why'd you have to go and make me so constipated Cause right now I'd do anything to just get my bowels evacuated, In the bathroom. I sit and I wait and I strain and I sweat and I clench and I feel the pain Oh, should I take laxatives or have my colon irrigated. No, no, no. I was feelin' pretty down, 'Til my girlfriend came around. We're just so alike in every way, I gotta say. In fact, I just thought I might, pop the question there that night. I was kissing her so tenderly, But woe is me. Who would uh guessed, her family crest. I suddenly spy, tattoo'd on her thigh. And son of a gun, it's just like the one on me. Tell me. How was I supposed to know we were both related? Believe me if I knew she was my vousin we never would of dated. What to do now? Should I go ahead and propose and get hitched and have kids with 11 toes, And move to Alabama where that kind of thing is tolerated. No, no, no. (no no no) I had so much on my mind, I thought maybe I'd unwind. Try out that new roller coaster ride, And the guide... Said not to stand but that's a demand, That I couldn't meet, I got on my feet, And stood up instead and knocked off my head you see. Tell me. Why'd I have to go and get myself decapitated? This really is a major inconvenience, oh man I really hate it. It's such a drag now. can't eat, I can't breathe, I can't snore, I can't belch or yodel anymore, Can't spit or blow my nose or even read Sports Illustrated. Oh no! Why'd I have to go and get myself all mutilated? (yeah yeah) I gotta tell ya, life without a head kinda makes me irritated. What a bummer. I can't blink, I can't cough, I can't sneeze. But my neck is enjoying a pleasant breeze now. Haven't been the same since my head and I were separated. No, no, no.

So they just mentioned well regulated militia being necessary, but it doesn't have any bearing on why they thought you should be able to carry a loaded weapon while grocery shopping or attending class. Like I said before, y'all aint taking my guns, but the constitutional argument and home safety when kids are involkved doesn't hold weight with me.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:06 AM) What laws are currently on the books in states with concealed carry? It seems like we have plenty of real-world evidence to go on instead of all of these straw-men fantasy events. When have rambo's gotten in the way of police? Killed the wrong person instead of the murderer? etc. etc. Do you drop it when he yells drop it? You said if the guy doesn't drop, you will shoot. Should he shoot you if you don't drop it? You could be charged with manslaughter, is that fair? We also have real world evidence that violent crimes are rising, is that because of concealed carry laws? I'm repeating what most police officers say, they enter a building with multiple gunmen, some innocent, some guiilty, and it makes the situation worst. Disagree if you want. I'll take law enforcement on my side. But I'm a law and order type who respects the police, not some wimpy liberal who dislikes law and order. QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:24 AM) Yes. They were well aware of the threats of tyranny, having just staged a rebellion. The 2nd Amendment doesn't require a well-regulated militia by law for gun ownership. It says that well-regulated militias are necessary and therefore people have the right to bear arms. It does not say that you must be part of a militia in order to bear arms. Care to tackle well regulated militia and how that applies to you and your gun? I assume then that you are part of a militia against any government tyranny and ready to take on Nuke and his weapons. How brave of you, good luck.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 16, 2007 -> 07:03 PM) And the whole point of the 2nd amendment is that we can't trust the government. Really. The government added the 2nd amendment against themselves? How about a well regulated militia. What does regulated and militia mean to you? What militia will you be a part of? How will you be regulated?

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:03 AM) People with concealed carry permits know how to handle a gun. They're not just a bunch of untrained boobs. What if some sort of police-style training was given in order to get the permit? Shout "drop it!" and if he makes an offensive-looking move, open up. Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations? So they can respond several minutes after the situation begins and after 32 people have been shot to death? When he yells drop it, do you? And what punishment, if any, do you deserve if you kill a good Samaritan? QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 10:02 AM) It's not that easy to get a concealed carry permit, so not every wacko you may bump into would be packing. it costs money, background checks and time. Your scenerios of doom are just fantasies. I wonder how long it will be until we get some new, knee-jerk legislation regarding this incident? I have one, anyone else here take the class?

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 09:49 AM) One person sitting in a classroom firing back at the wacko who just busted in the door, guns blazing, is pretty distinguishable. Do you give the guy who just busted in the door a chance to shoot? Is he the shooter intent on killing you or is he a good Samaritan coming to protect you? thinkquick, you've been hiding in that classroom waiting for your chance. He's COMING FOR YOU! Save everyone!! Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations? If you make a mistake, and kill someone, what, if any, punishment should you receive?

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 09:47 AM) Tex, when does the situation you proposed ever really happen in states with concealed carry permits? As it stands, I'm completely defenseless against those thugs. They can do anything they want and I really can't stop them since they're armed and I'm not. Same situation yesterday at VT. And, really, saying "hundreds of guns" or "everyone has a gun" is just a straw man. Only people who wanted to take the time to get certified and spend several hundred or thousand dollars on guns and ammo would be carrying, not every single person. The only situation I can remember when a "good Samaritan" who was carrying, stopped a massacre like this was a few months back in Utah. Guess what? He was an off duty cop. I don't want a bunch of Rambo wannabes getting in the way of police, confusing the situation, and shooting around me or my family. I'll take my chances with one psycho and law enforcement. More guns ratchets up the violence. Criminals aren't going to stop because you might be carrying, they will just become more likely to shoot. After all they are criminals who are using a gun already. These criminals have already crossed a threshold beyond the smash and grab guys and petty thieves.

QUOTE(mreye @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 09:41 AM) One more gun in the hands of a responsible person, easily differentiated from the murdering gunman, on that campus would have stopped this. Fixed. Or perhaps a murdering, psycho with a knife instead of a gun.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 09:26 AM) That's just a flawed argument based on emotions and not reason. Besides, its not like they'd be handing out guns at the doors. Only people who really wanted to get CCW permits and pay several hundred dollars for guns would be carrying. Given the amount of armed robberies on campus here lately, maybe these thugs would think twice if they knew their victim my also be packing. I am certain you would feel safer that the paranoid guy who you just accidentally brushed into is now screaming at you and *might* be carrying a weapon. Of course you could pull out your gun to protect yourself. But then three other guys, who don't know if you're some wacko pull out theirs and we have a party! The true thugs know that honest people are hesitant to pull a trigger and kill someone. Texas executes hundreds, has a concealed permit system, and Texas isn't safer than any other state. Y'all ain't taking my guns, but hundreds of guns in that building would not have prevented this and may have made it worse.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 09:09 AM) I don't see how anyone right now can argue against a concealed carry law. You can see the result of guns being banned on the VTU campus. I don't see how there can be any debate on this subject. I would be more than happy to debate. When you leave your classroom and see a guy down the hall carrying a gun, shooting, he quickly turns as he hears you approaching, do you shoot at him? Too bad, you just murdered someone, that's a guy shooting at the *real* shooter. Now picture the scene when you apologize to his mother for killing her son because you thought he was the shooter, or apologizing to a husband because you missed the shooter and killed an innocent bystander. How much regular practice and training do you have with your weapon? Are you looking at the background in case you miss? Imagine twelve people running around with guns when the cops arrive? Who do they shoot first?

QUOTE(Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 08:39 AM) Bingo. It's somewhat ironic, but I agree with the gun control advocates on almost everything except taking away my guns The home protection argument I rejected as soon as I had kids. To be effective, you may have only seconds to wake up and have your gun ready. That means loaded with one on top and no locks. A dangerous recipe with kids around. By the time you grab. load, and unlock it is probably too late. I don't want every hot headed asshole to have a gun next to him while he drives. I don't think someone needs a gun while shopping at WalMart. Hunting, Skeet, Trap, Target shooting, lots of fun, and can be accomplished while your guns stay locked in the trunk between your range and home. And I would encourage anyone who has never shot a gun to find a local range and fire off a few before judging.

I was holding this analogy back a couple years ago but thought I'd toss it out there today. A couple years ago I felt that eventually there would be some great parallels in Bush and Carter's Presidencies. Good, decent men, but largely ineffective as President. Now I'm thinking Carter will be judge better based on the death toll in Iraq. Although I am certain the GOP crowd will point to Iraq in placing him ahead of Carter. Either way, Bush fails in any comparison heading back to Carter. I have and still do think Bush is a decent, moral, man. Starting six months or so after 9/11 his Presidency started to suck and I don't think he has ever recovered, much like the Iran Hostage crippled Carter. There isn't a situation or yard stick from the economy, the US budget, gas prices, etc. that Bush and Co. hasn't blamed on 9/11 and there is probably more truth to that than false blame. Final note, some problems are too big for any one President. Sometimes timing is everything. The Beatles and Reagan benefited from the US population wanting to shed the doldrums and have some fun, feel good about themselves, and kick some ass. Clinton also sparked Americans to don't stop thinking about tomorrow. Being a cheerleader is grossly underrated in a President, but in the final count, it may be the most important thing.

The problem with this speculation is all the what ifs. In the preceding weeks and months would other kids have been killed in separate incidences because more guns were on campus. We'll never know. We also don't know how many would have been killed in this situation in crossfire and mistaken identity. The last thing several cops have told me in this situation do they want to hear are innocents are also carrying guns and shooting. That causes them to hesitate and possible put themselves in greater risk trying to figure out who is the bad guy and who is trying to help

Let's put this into perspective regarding lock downs etc. With staff, the campus population is approximately the size of Highland Park, Niles, Northbrook, or Oak Forest. Do you really expect the police to lock down those cities if they come upon what looks to be a domestic murder? Can you imagine the reaction from local businesses?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 16, 2007 -> 07:48 PM) Well that depends on how much action the President takes to influence the economy. Not all fiscal tools are at the disposal of just the federal reserve bank. Things like tax rates are the control of the President and Congress, while things like interest rates, and banking reserve laws are the behest of the Fed Bank. Even not doing something, is doing something. Like almost everything, the President receives way to much credit or blame.

I do not believe a well armed militia means any American has a right to own a firearm. They are not part of a militia. So I think it is wrong to hang our hats on the Constitution. I don't believe the framers of the Constitution had Joe Sixpack with an arsenal of guns in mind when they were writing. They were thinking of men hunting for food and an all-volunteer army ready to defend the country. Of course at that time, the country could not afford a standing army. I believe there are some firearms that should be banned, fully automatic for one. I believe it is wrong to take my guns away because some people use them in crimes. Those people are criminals, I am not. I have never committed a crime with a gun or otherwise and should not be punished. Anymore than prohibition to end drunk driving.

Listening to the coverage it appears that the first incidence was almost a classic domestic murder, and really no way tit foreshadowed the second. It also seems that it may turn out to be two different tragedies, linked only by time and location.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Apr 16, 2007 -> 12:15 AM) This reminds me of the days of Beastly. I miss the kid Nice catch Abo, I thought we'd been down this alley before, I couldn't remember who.

I wish I had more positive thoughts, but as I heard that this is now the deadliest in US history, my first thought was someone will see that as a challenge.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Apr 16, 2007 -> 12:07 PM) Um, I hate to break this to you BS, but the very first thing on the list is a complete lie, unless by strongest economy every, you mean in recession within 6 weeks. Actually looking over that the great majority of the economic figures are either a result of the recession he inhertited, or as a result of 9-11. I always like when facts are distorted, or just made into out right lies. Which begs the question, should Presidents ever receive credit or blame for the economy?

another Maxxim list?

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 09:48 PM) Aloha, Don. Alas, you can now enjoy your eternal rest while I'm stuck here with friggin' Tiny Bubbles probably going through my head all night now. What does Ho have to do with your home brews? Isn't that a function of the yeast?

QUOTE(Soxy @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 12:51 PM) Hahaha Best cubs joke I've seen in a very long time.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 08:37 PM) Not to really stir the pot... but... do you really know King's history beyond the "history books"? I'll go away now. There was and is only one Jesus.