bigruss

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:31 PM) Jordan is taking care of things quite nicely here. I'm always amused that people think the only way to have a good farm system is to have 10 losing seasons in a row. As Balta pointed out, it will be harder to build a good farm system while drafting lower in the CBA, but teams need to learn to shift those resources it would take to sign these guys into scouting and development. It shouldn't be a race to who can spend the most on bonuses anymore, it'll be about coaching and identifying talent earlier. Edit: And this is what the Jays have been investing in too.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) Fact of the matter is this isn't the NBA where you better have a top #5 pick to land a star. The White Sox are universally recognized as having the worst collection of farm talent year-in, year-out. And it's not because they graduated a couple guys really fast or because of draft position. Yawnnnnn. Graduating a player every year from the system (which btw happens all over, not just here) may prevent the Sox from being a few slots better than worst, but that doesn't really change much.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) you need to look a little deeper than that. part of it the sox top draft picks for a few of those years are in the MLB. Beckham, Sale etc. The job of the minors is to get players to the MLB or use as trades. If the sox are moving them to the MLB sooner, that isn't a penatly. It's not just a 3 player difference though, some guys in the Jays system ranked as their 25-30 best prospects are top 10, if not top 5 prospects for us. That is insanely bad.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:55 PM) their number of wins early in the decade: 2001: 80 2002:78 2003:86 2004:67 2005: 80 Those are poor records in which they could get good draft picks. As the decade progressed they improved a little with those picks. 2006: 87 2007: 83 2008: 86 2009: 75 2010: 85 2011: 81 The number of wins was still low which contiued to give them a good draft position. They have not had really good seasons which gave them poor draft positions. They have been in good draft positions so they aren't a real good example. They only recently revamped their scouting department, and that's when they started seeing big changes in their farm system. They haven't drafted that far from the Sox in that period: 2009: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd 2010: Jays 11th/ Sox 13th 2011: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd (lost for Dunn) The past few drafts the Jays have had a slight advantage on the Sox, yet in that same time period the Jays have built a top 3 system, and the Sox have fallen to dead last. You don't need high draft picks to succeed, but you do have invest resources and commit to it.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) I think this is point most don't get. In order to really build the farm system to one of the best, you need to be bad foir a long time. You obviously can have a good one with good scouting but to be Rays good you need to be bad for a long time. No, no you don't. Look at the Blue Jays for example A.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 11:00 AM) Damn you, Russ. I'm bored at work today

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 11:33 AM) Still not nearly the same. Never said that

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 11:20 AM) then we won't be any better off than where we stand today. At least we have a direction.. I can't stand Billy Beane but he had the right approach for his team this year Actually I think we have a pretty clear direction right now. We aren't going to invest anymore into this year's team, we are only investing in players who can contribute for the next 4 years or so. We just have so many bad contracts that a full rebuild is impossible. And Beane can never commit to going for it, which may be him or A's ownership, but that's why they can never really win.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 11:02 AM) The Sox are going to take a huge hit in attendence if we have PK or not.. The way I see it is you take the hit now, bring in many prospects and than spend money on free agency in the next 2 seasons to go along with the prospects. The next 2 years of PK on this team is worthless, if we aren't going for it You have to look at it from a business standpoint: Savings (probably $6m + prospects (only decent ones, maybe 1 Top 100 guy) >> Loss of fan interest, attendance Im sure they did calculations and found that keeping Konerko is just a better move financially.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:59 AM) scottmerkin Scott Merkin Interesting note on John Danks: His 2012 salary is $500,000. He then gets a $7.5 million signing bonus, paid between June, '12 and Oct., '12 That seems odd, maybe they are cash strapped right now?

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:54 AM) AJ - No combination of teams wanting him/team can afford him PK - Fan favorite, need some people to go to the games Thornton - Most likely to get traded Crain - Better value now or at the deadline? Ohman - Not much value, but tradeable at the deadline. Beckham - Worth more to the Sox than anyone else most likely Floyd - 2 years of affordable #3 starter should come with a steep price, no one has given the Sox that yet. Alexei - Same with Floyd, you don't trade unless you get a huge haul. Danks - NTC now I'd hope for some of these players we would get some great young prospects into this organzation. The only ones I can see being traded at this point are the bullpen guys, and those are probably more valuable closer to the deadline.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:52 AM) I hope you're right about Romney. He reminds me too much of McCain, where I liked and respected him and his policies until each became a serious contender for the presidency. At that point (McCain in 2008/Romney in 2012), they backed off of their histories and started to say anything they thought would help them win. Which is funny because they tend to distance themselves from moderate voters.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:48 AM) The right deal of course being the kind of deal people like you would throw a temper tantrum about. I can only imagine the meltdown guys like Greg would have that the Sox traded Konerko before guys like Rios and Dunn....

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:45 AM) Really? I must have missed the quote where he said he would eat $56 million. I doubt it. I think Thornton is on the trade block. I don't think there is much of a market for AJ. I think it was J4L who broke down the market for AJ, but can't remember specifically who did it. All I remember is that every team that may be looking to upgrade at catcher already has an option as good if not better than AJ. He flat out isn't a big enough upgrade for a team to take on salary and give up talent for.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:43 AM) And keep in mind you do have to keep a few guys to keep some fans going to the park. We have seen what happens when the white flag goes up on teh south side. Yea that's pretty much what I said. The Sox are about winning, I think they have made that statement the past few years with their commitment to the payroll, but they are about making money too. And to do that they needs fans at the ballpark and enough tv viewership, and you need some players to draw these fans in.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:40 AM) I agree, except that real estate comps are very easy to find, whereas MLB comps are sometimes next to impossible. I can't think of a Santos comp, given his age, history and contract status. I'm with Jenksy on that particular trade...no way to tell. The only thing I feel like KW can be criticized for there is the Red Sox rebuke for not coming to them before pulling the trigger. And yea that's where it differs and why it's harder for fans to say with authority that a team got ripped off (at the time of the trade at least). But there tends to be enough former trades to look at to give an idea of what a team should expect in return, and sometimes having all these unique statuses (young, experienced closer with cheap contract) should be able to bring in more in a trade, just saying.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:35 AM) Yeah, I kind of view this the same way as I view the concept cars at the car show...it's a miracle if any of it ever actually reaches the market. I would say out of simple observations that yea you won't see many if any direct products from concept car shows sold. But the designs, features, etc will be used heavily later on. All those stylings on the outside of concept cars are pretty much what you will be looking at in buying a car a few years down the road, or at least that's what I feel like I've seen in the past 8 years or so (lived near Detroit for 5 years so car shows were huge and newspapers would have full sections on what was there. I remember many of those stylings now being adapted to standard cars today).

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:34 AM) Eh, I'll never buy that. Not a single person here knows what goes down so I don't see the point in treating it like they do. There is a ton of truth that fans don't really know the true value of a player, just because every circumstance will be different (market for the player, economy making salary mroe appealing or less, etc). That said, how do you think many GMs view value of players in a trade? They look at precedence in a big way, it's like buying real estate. How much was a similar piece valued, and what is the current market climate.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:29 AM) This is the point, the off season doesn't end tomorrow. There are over 6 months left to make trades. It's like people here saying "we could have gotten so much more for Santos omggggg", how the f*** does anyone here know that? Absolutely 0 point in getting angry over hypothetical moves that not a single person outside of the sox org would know about. I think it's fair to say as a poster that the Sox could have gotten a filler prospect or two, similar to one in the Frasor deal, in addition to Molina, based on precedence. Obviously we won't know the true value of Santos, but we as fans can make logical deductions based on precedence.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) it's time for JR to eat some salary like Ricketts is doing on the north side. No team has ever eaten as much salary as it would take to get rid of Rios, or Dunn (who would be a mistake imo). Right now it's just not possible to get rid of them, the organization has forced themselves into a situation where they have to see what they can get out of these guys.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) Yeah um...no. That organization clearly does not respect their IT department, and they can't expect to recruit any real talent then.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:23 AM) I'm sure KC fans would take a team that doesn't lose 90 games every year. That young talent still hasn't won in the majors, yet we keep hearing about how awesome they are. I would like to clarify what I think a lot of posters on here that admire the KC system think: Their system is top notch, one of the best ever compiled most likely. They have some major pieces coming up through that system. That said, this does not make them perennial winners in the future. That franchise will have to commit to keeping those players that do pan out, signing FA's to fill holes, and being able to pull the trigger on deals to get players that they weren't able to produce. Without that commitment a farm system is useless.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:20 AM) I agree with everything u said. If the team is not going to go for it, trade away everyone. And this team is in between right now, they are trying to save attendance by keeping a few guys (and some guys you can't get rid of anyways) while trading other pieces for prospects you like and can contribute in the next season or two. So adding salary in terms of bench players and mop up guys doesn't make any sense.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:19 AM) I think this is right on. People keep wanting to put the Sox into one of two camps: a complete crash-down rebuild that takes five years and may never work, or go sign a whole bunch of expensive players and compete in 2012. KW is doing neither - he is retooling for 2013, and I think he's got the right idea, given the parameters he has to work within (payroll, attendance, talent in minors, tradeable vs untradeable major leaguers, contract lengths, etc.). In a non-video game world, this is about as good as you can get. You won't be able to spawn off Rios, Dunn, or Peavy. You have to keep Konerko for the fans, and keep guys that will be around for the next 3-4 years (Danks, possibly Alexei). Everyone else should be moved for the right package, including considering cutting salary for future seasons.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 10:13 AM) Using that line of thoiught, then last place is the goal. If .500 is probably the best your team can achieve, than yea being in last for a year or two is more beneficial long term for the franchise. The best direction the team could go for sustained good performance is to trade away all possible pieces, lose big this year, tryout as many young players during the season as possible, go all out in the draft with the high draft picks, start spending again in the next year or two. With the new CBA rules, getting stuck in that purgatory that is .500 is more likely than ever.