JUGGERNAUT

I would agree. If the Sox SP is still amongst the best in the league then I see the team going after a bonified closer. Especially if one doesn't emerge from Shingo, Marte, & Hermy, or Viz. I'm sure Mesa will be available amongst others. I wouldn't be surprised if Dye isn't part of the deal. So far he hasn't factored much in the winning. If you're willing to throw in a little cash he becomes very attractive to teams struggling for hitters.

Based on the MLB rule of law you have physical & circumstantial evidence in this case. The physical evidence is that Crede was HBP OUTSIDE of the strike zone. This is evident by the Ball call. The rest is circumstantial evidence. Did Crede purposefully try to get HBP or was he unable to avoid it? Only a fool would try to decide that based on that one pitch alone. Does Crede have a high % of being HBP in his careeer? No. When subjectively trying to determine the hitter's motive surrounding the HBP event you can't ignore past history. That's just stupid.

I agree with the first post. The balk & the interference calls were bad calls. I've seen the replay on the balk & it doesn't look like he stepped off the rubber & as you've pointed out Crede did not cross into the strike zone when he was hit. But all of that in my opinion was overshadowed by 6+ errors on the White Sox part. Officially there were only 6 but there were at least 2 more: the Harris & Rowand plays. They went from error-free ball on Monday to error-prone ball the rest of the series. That's what cost them the battle. Hawk didn't say much about it & he should have. Perhaps he doesn't want to be run out of town like Stone was when he started criticizing the Cubs.

Did we get a new owner like Anaheim did? Abreu makes $13.1M & Polanco makes $4.6M. Rowand makes $2M. Where are we getting the $15.1M to complete this trade? It's more likely we would get Lofton in the deal. But even then we are still $5.6M short. Would they be willing to eat salary to get Ozuna? I doubt it. To get Polanco we are likely going to have to give up Everett. But they have Burrell & Abreu at the corner OF pos so I'm not sure they'd want him. Polanco has over 2/3rd's as many bat as Bell so it's not like they aren't finding playing time for him.

Sarcasm: We would be better off trading for Valentin so that Crede can play SS.

It's actually more of a slap in the face towards Cub fans than Sox fans. The basis of ranking the White Sox as #1 in that dept is the fact that they share with the Cubs the longest drought since winning a World Series. He points out the Cubs are first in that dept but they don't care. They are loveable losers. They never expect to win. Cub fans exist because Wrigley field does. But Sox fans do care. They exist to win. It matters not where in Chicagoland the team plays. So when fans have high expectations to win every year & don't that has to be the worse feeling. I can't say I disagree with him. The sarcasm is so rich wrt to the Cubs that he eludes to the possibility the team would lose it's identity if it were to win. Would Cub fans become unhappy if they could no longer be called the loveable losers? In the same article he has a picture of Tropicana field & is clearly depicting that team as being the worst right now. A horrible place to play & a lousy team to boot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/life_traffickin...HVjBHNlYwNtcA-- It's sad & there are no easy answers. I read recently other stories of underage girls being sold into prostitution here in the US. Apparently Mexico & specifically Tijuana specialize in such trades. This story illustrates the real evil in the world: money. Or rather what it makes one do. If a person grows up in this world without a sense of purpose or reason that exists beyond this world then that reason & purpose will be filled by experience in this world. As the world throws away it's traditions, religions, & cultures in pursuit of money, money is fastly becoming the only God in this world. The only force that determines what someone will & will not do. You can knock religion all you want but it's purpose is simple: to teach people that their action's in this world will determine their place in the next. Money has no meaning in the next world. Sharing & helping others has the greatest value. That's a core theme throughout the major religions of this world. A film is coming out soon that will tell the story of how Enron used rolling blackouts in CA to bilk billions from Californians. That's not accounting any more. That's fraud. Fraud that endangers human lives. It's not just Enron either. The film will demonstrate similar practices in the insurance industry, pharamceuticals, telecommunications, etc. They termed it canibalistic capitalism. An anything goes mentality. As I write this I did think of something that could help some of these women: virtual passports. Instead on needing hardcopy documents to travel put the documents on-line & make use of a security question to gain access. That would at least help some of these women. It would also enhance security by allowing the US to instantly track suspicious persons via hits to their virtual passports.

It amazes me how you can judge Crede's intent by one play. Thank God our court system doesn't work that way. Does Crede's career HBP #'s suggest he would do this? No. Is Crede naturally an aggresive hitter? Yes. He more offen than not leans towards the plate when swinging the bat. Did the pitcher previously bean Rowand in the inning? Yes. IMO, as an umpire if you make such a questionable call with ignorance of the facts leading up to the play you are doing a dis-service to the game. Again I think those of us with umpire experience would agree that if this were say a pony league game & a guy beaned someone in the inning we would error on the side of the hitter & not the pitcher.

ptatc your insight will come in handy here. From all the reports I've read & I'm sure others have read as well, Frank had little to no problem with light running. Jogging or treadmill work if you will. That's why his optimism was saying mid-April back in Feb & even Mar. But then he tried doing some sprints & that's where the pain showed up. As you eluded to they are doing all they can to treat that pain. Is there any hope in the fact that he can jog but he can't sprint? Does the idea of playing with pain risk further injury?

The balk was a far worse call & shifted momentum in Tues game. It was questionable. I personally think the rule should be changed. There are not many deadball rules in baseball & in my opinion it should only be called if the team at bat calls time & appeals to the umpire. When it comes to check swings the team on the field has the right to appeal to an umpire on the field if the ump behind the C doesn't call a strike. A similar policy could be adopted when it comes to balks. As for the Crede play it's not a question of what Crede did or failed to do but rather the fact that the same pitcher had beaned Rowand earlier in the inning. My experience as a little/pony league umpire leads me to believe that when that happens you give the benefit of the doubt to the hitter because the pitcher has already proved his wildness.

This was a bizarro series. The Sox proved to be a comedy of errors in late innings. Throw in some questionable calls by umpires that gave the A's an edge & the Sox lost their first series of the year. How many series will Dye & Rowand make dumbfounded errors? Not many. Their careers indicate they are better than average to good. How many series will Harris blow a play? Not many. He's not expected to play that much. The Sox lost their first series of the year. Was it a lack of talent? No. They gave it away. Guess what? They will win their share of games this year where the opposition give it away. The season is a war consisting of about 50 battles. We lost one due to our own negligence rather than the enemy's prowress What's far more important are the casualties resulting from the battle. We our not very deep when it comes to the middle IF. We need Uribe & Guch back on the field. Their presence is the difference between winning & losing series. Their bats are just as important as their gloves for this team. If they can't play we're in trouble.

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier in the thread but talking from experience this is something umpires become very familiar with when working little league games. There are kids who will lean into balls to get on & there are pitchers that will bean kids on purpose. The general rule we apply is if the kid has already beaned someone we give the benefit of the doubt to the hitter. The ump in today's game didn't do that. Duchscherer had already beaned Rowand before facing Crede. I'm not one to buy into conspiracy theories but I will say the umps seemed to go out of their way to give the A's the benefit of the doubt on most questionable calls. That applies to Marte's balk as well.

- K. Ginter safe at first on third baseman P. Ozuna's fielding error : didn't hurt us - E. Chavez scored on balk : hurt us - M. Scutaro safe at first on right fielder J. Dye's fielding error, M. Scutaro to second : hurt us - E. Byrnes safe at first on shortstop W. Harris' fielding error, M. Scutaro scored, M. Kotsay to third : hurt us Tues: The Umps & the White Sox gave Oakland that victory. - J. Kendall singled to right, E. Byrnes to third, J. Kendall to second on right fielder J. Dye's fielding error : hurt us. Durazo is a .333A 1.044OPS player w NON, 0 outs. He drops to .267A, .620OPS with NON, 1/2 out. If that play is turned Chavez likely ends the 8th & Hatteburg is leading off the 9th. Hatteburg hasn't reached base vs Marte in 3 yrs. Top 9th - J. Dye flied out to center - A. Rowand hit by pitch - A.J. Pierzynski walked, A. Rowand to second - C. Widger flied out to left - J. Crede popped out to second As an umpire you give the hitter the benefit of the doubt when the pitcher has already beaned a player. You learn that early on when umpiring LL games where it's much more common. But I doubt if it makes a difference. If Crede gets on, Timo faces a BL, 2 out situation. You still need a hit to score a run & Timo is struggling. Playing extra innings favors the A's because of the Sox D lapses in the past 2 games & a makeshift IF.

Oakland is like the Twilight Zone for the White Sox. The YNOT should have asked whether Crede would play SS. Unreal. We played one errorless ballgame & one. We then played two error-prone ballgames & lost. Add in two bizarro calls late in the game vs the Sox & that was the strangest series I've seen in years. Hopefully they will be healthy when they return home.

I just hope this isn't $ driven. If so the most expensive guy in the pen is Marte. The only weakness in our pen is Ozzie's mind (using Viz for more than 1 inning), & Cotts. Shingo like Viz is a 1 inning pitcher. Last yr he was the best 1 inning pitcher in MLB. He's getting back to that status with improved control. It all comes down to being able to throw the frisbee for strikes. Assuming we can afford it leave the pen alone. Cotts is looking better.

That's the absolute dumbest & worst theory I've ever heard. I wish he would just shut up about it. Many teams have gone a season without losing 60 games. Many teams have gone a season without having 42 come from behind or close wins. Hawk let it go. If you need to count the wins do it by month. A playoff team needs to avg 16 wins a month. Any less & your hoping for others to lose to make it. But 96 wins should get you in. Every win over 16 in a month gives you a +1. That's insurance against tough schedules that might prevent you from getting 16 wins in a month. The remaining wins for Apr will come in handy when we face that tough schedule in Aug.

I'll predict 50 wins before the AS break. Beyond that I'll wait to see who's on the DL or out for the season.

Inn 7+: http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg WSx .288A .306O .421S .727OPS vs Opp .204A .270O .354S .624OPS : +103OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Tribe .207A .291O .369S .660OPS vs Opp .209A .268O .328S .597OPS : +.063OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Minny .222A .316O .346S .662OPS vs Opp .259A .307O .370S .677OPS : -.015OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Tiggs .247A .311O .366S .677OPS vs Opp .213A .310O .383S .692OPS : -.015OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Roys .214A .283O .371S .655OPS vs Opp .305A .378O .442S .820OPS : -.165OPS Inn <7: http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Minny .296A .363O .444S .806OPS vs Opp .269A .288O .460S .748OPS : +.058OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg WSx .242A .297O .383S .680OPS vs Opp .228A .301O .335S .636OPS : +.044 OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Tigs .306A .352O .472S .825OPS vs Opp .293A .343O .454S .797OPS : +.028OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Tribe .244A .306O .373S .679OPS vs Opp .248A .303O .353S .656OPS : +.023OPS http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Roys .257A .311O .373S .683OPS vs Opp .269A .337O .414S .751OPS : -.069OPS Pitching wise the team that's best keeping up with us is Cleveland. But they to have a struggling lineup. The biggest difference is that our lineup has come alive in the late innings & their's has remained asleep. Looking back on 2004: Inn <7: WSx .274A .337O .466S .803OPS vs Opp .285A .347O .474S .821OPS : -.018OPS Inn 7+: WSx .255A .324O .438S .762OPS vs Opp .246A .320O .406S .726OPS : +.036OPS WSx 05 vs WSx 04 Inn <7: +.062OPS WSx 05 vs WSx 04 Inn 7+: +.067OPS Looking ahead: There's no reason to believe the WSx are going to worsen for Inn 7+. Even the national media agrees that the WSx have improved their bullpen. So I think it's realistic to believe they can maintain close to a .070OPS gain in the late innings over last yr's team. As for the starter innings it's anybody's guess. But it's certainly not going to be as bad as the Roys & should be good enough to match Cle & Det. Which leaves Minny. They are not getting it done pitching wise in the late innings. Santana rarely pitches more than 6 innings so that's not going to help them. They are struggling to get hits in the late innings as well. That could mean they are feasting on weak starters but struggling against good ones & good bullpens. That's not a good sign for them. With the links I'll keep track of this thread on a weekly basis & make comments. It's going to be a fun season & tracking it will make it more so.

I think it will last. It's apparent to me now what's happening with our offense. http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Inn 1-6 .242A .297O .383S .680OPS vs Opp .228A .301O .335S .636OPS That's a +.044OPS. http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Inn 7+ .288A .306O .421S .727OPS vs Opp .204A .270O .354S .624OPS That's a +.103OPS. (6 guys hitting over .300) That's the way teams traditionally built on pitching & defense first & hitting second beat you. The more looks average to good hitters get against starters the better their odds of getting hits. If you look at the ERA of the relievers we've faced for the most part they've been worse than the starters. We really don't give KW & Ozzie enough credit. Especially Ozzie becomes it's obvious he is trying to shape this organization in the mold of the Florida Marlins with the luxury of more $'s to spend. The real challenge wil come when we play a string of teams with good rotations & good bullpens. I'm not sure how many of them exist right now

That was awesome! I could not have written it better myself. Though I would have mention the fact that we are nearly 200OPS better than our opposition so far with runners on. So it's not like the offense is sleeping.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...d=656078&st=0 The Minny 2001 team is the team we best resemble. Check out the links & the numbers. Their front 3 had numbers very similar to ours. Hernandez & Contreras have pitched better than Romero & Redman but there offense was better than ours. However; our RON numbers are better than there's. The bullpens were pretty even. That team won 55 games before the break but then suffered injuries & what not & won only 30 games in the 2nd half. Hopefully we will remain healthy & not suffer that fate. The pitching staff & defense is giving this team the opportunity to win but the offense is getting us the wins. No better stat to show this than RON. 2005 WSox .287A .323O .466S .790OPS vs Opp .221A .301O .300S .601OPS That says it's all. Nearly a 200OPS edge with runners on. That's why were 16W-4L. Is that a house of cards? I doubt it. We have veteran players struggling (Koney, Dye, AJ, Rowand). They are far from their career avg's. Without quesiton we can expect the Opp #'s to go up as the season plays out but so should ours. The biggest question marks on the team (Pods, Uribe, Iggy, & Crede) are all producing. I don't expect them to finish over 300 but maybe 280. That will be fine when the big 4 get their avg's close to the same. The Minny 2001 team didn't have a yearly MVP candidate coming off the DL to battle in the stretch drive. We do.

Try the Minny 2001 team. Minny http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg WSox http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg 05 Apr WSox .258A .300O .396S vs Opp .220A .291O .341S 16W-4L (2.97ERA) 01 Apr Minny .265A .332O .458S vs Opp .242A .302O .386S 18W-6L (3.62ERA) Individually wise the corelation is scary. 4 guys 300+, stars struggling, few in middle. Pitching-wise they led with Milton, Radke, & Mays. Romero & Redman were a far cry from Contreras & Hernandez but they made up for that with a better offense. The diff is pretty close. WSox +.038A, +.009O, +055S vs Minny +.023A, +.030O, +.072S That Minny team went on to win 55 of it's first 87 gms before the AS break. Because of injuries it only won 30 in the 2nd half. 01 May Minny .266A .336O .404S vs .262A .316O .386S 16W-11L (3.93ERA) 05 Apr WSox RON .287A .323O .466S vs Opp .221A .301O .300S 01 All Minny RON .269A .341O .406S vs Opp .280A .337O .458S Santana was lost in the 2nd half. Again our hitting in RON sits is what's getting us the wins. That's overshadowing our overall weakness at the plate. The pitching is giving us the opportunities for the wins. That Minny team didn't see the bottom fall out of the pitching staff in May & I don't expect that to happen with the WSox either. If we have 55 wins before the break I'd be very happy.

Making the covers of Sporting News, SI, ESPN Magazine would be nice.

I doubt that very much. R, RBI, H, DB, HR have a pretty standard value. I can understand your argument though that when you think of intangibles you think of aspects of the game that aren't tabulated very much (FC, close plays, web gems, back up plays, disposition on the field, battery relationship, etc.). You have a valid point. So perhaps a better reference to these stats (TC, PO, A, DP, F%, E, SH, SF, FC) would be teamwork stats. They require the play of more than 1 person & they are not considered part of the $ stats (R, RBI, HR, H, DB, SB). So let's say the Sox may be lagging in some $ stats for some players that drags down the team avg's in some sits. But they are amongst the leaders in most teamwork stats & that's helped them get to a 16-4 record.

Jim's post did bring to mind something that I do see often today that I didn't see back then: Mall like walking. I see this mostly from teens & young adults around the concourse. These kids are not there to watch the ball game as much as they are there to hang out. They rarely sit in their seats & just seem to walk around & talk on cell phones. It is so reminiscent of what you see at malls like Woodfield. Jim's description of these fans being "clueless" fits them to the letter. They trully are clueless. I would bet if you asked any of them what the score was or who was playing where or who was at bat or who was pitching I doubt they could tell you without looking up at the boards or the game. I would imagine the skills section is going to increase that crowd. I guess I have mixed feelings about it. They are young fans & we need to grow that part of the fan base so I appreciate their support. But I also realize they have no intention of sitting in their seats & watching the game. They are there primarily to see who else is & to hang out with friends. It doesn't bother me too much. I love my seats behind the Sox bullpen when I get them. My kids between innings will sometimes go to the front seats & ask the players questions. They loved Koch for his attention to the fans. When I add it all up I realize these new "clueless" fans could mean the difference between a mid 60 & mid 70 payroll. That could be the difference between winning or losing a World Series. That's something I can tolerate.