witesoxfan

Minnesota would be dumb as hell to do something like that. I would drag this trade scenario out until atleast mid-December and see if you can get some team to just bite on a huge offer and run all the way to the bank. I mean, they want 3 or 4 of Kemp, Billingsley, Kershaw, Ethier, LaRoche, and Broxton, yet accept this offer, something is wrong.

QUOTE(Chet Lemon @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 09:58 PM) Anyone think that the Astros would be willing to make this deal w/ the Sox: Adam Russell + Joe Crede for Luke Scott? I'm just kind of messing around w/ LF trade options for next season. I'd try and do it without giving up Russell, but I'd do that deal almost instantly. QUOTE(BearSox @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 03:50 PM) I'd do that deal... but the Cards have no use for Crede unless they trade Rolen, which I doubt. If the Cards had any control over where Luke Scott went and what he went for, they would take something like Andy Gonzalez straight up for him.

QUOTE(chiguy79 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 10:54 AM) They weren't exactly great last year...their offense sucks outside of three guys (one of which they lost) Someone doesn't know who Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel are QUOTE(Benchwarmerjim @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 04:03 PM) Im sure the Twins have another arm lined up to take the closers role. They have done it in the past. Rick Aguleria was a decent starter turned into an elite closer. LaTroy Hawkins was a bumbling starter turned into a good closer. Eddie Guardado was a middle relief guy turned into a reliable closer. Joe Nathan is a setup guy turned into an All Star caliber closer. How about Boof?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 01:17 PM) Next snarky comment in this thread will earn said poster an internet castration and keep in mind I don't play around when it comes to the removal of internet testicles. MY INTERNET TESTICLES ARE TOO BIG TO BE CASTRATED, SO YOU GO AHEAD AND TRY

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 09:22 AM) Peace? sure

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 22, 2007 -> 06:39 PM) Regardless of the other two (thinking objectively, I might prefer Rowand to Hunter in both the short and long term...higher ceiling and the durability issues are not there, only the recklessness issue), do some f***ing research, thus preventing you from looking like an idiot. Orlando Cabrera - 31.7 Juan Uribe - -0.6 (yes, that's a negative number) But yeah, a 32.3 difference in VORP is comparable. Sorry, just to clarify the number here... Juan Uribe's VORP in 2007 was -7.1; sheds even a better light on what was said, doesn't it?

Before it goes unnoticed, kudos to Bruce Levine for continually doing his job well. He staked his reputation on the Sox signing Vizquel to a 2 year deal barring no one else offered him a 3-year deal; San Fran did, and paid for it this past season. He said the Sox had signed Linebrink a week before anyone else and, lord behold, they signed him to the exact deal he reported. Levine takes too much s*** around here; he does his job probably better than anyone else within the Chicago baseball scene, and I personally thank him for that. Whether he's right or wrong, he keeps us informed about what goes on within the organization, and he's usually pretty spot on.

ehhh...? from an article sox-r-us posted in PHT

All I have to say is that I hope he is not seriously considering the 5 players mentioned in that article as actual centerfielders. Oh, and that I doubt the Twins have much interest in Crisp anymore; Pridie, Tyner, and whatever else they can pick up on the scrapheap may very well be good enough to suit them for CF this year. Depending on what they do with Santana, I'd be very surprised if the Twins actually expect to compete this year, and if they do, that a move for a CFer will come during the season rather than before.

QUOTE(Whitewashed in '05 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 12:37 AM) Didn't Timo get a game deciding hit last year? Yea Timo GWer He also led off an inning with a hit too, the very next day, which eventually beat the Sox. Timo leads off with hit If we bring in a s***ty player to be Ozzie's best bud, atleast let it be someone lovable like Timo.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Nov 29, 2007 -> 12:32 AM) What are the odds of Brian Anderson starting for the Sox next year? What are the odds of Anderson being a productive hitter in the bigs in the next five years? You think he is another Borchard flameout type or a stud in the making? I would say he ain't going to make it because of that horrible batting stance of his in which he appears about as aggressive as a .190 hitting NL pitcher. 1. 0% 2. 49% 3. No, but a flameout of different circumstances He's a hard partier, he's apparently not real coachable, and he's got a f'ing ego (why, I have no idea). If the right team gets their hands on him, and they can teach him to be a good hitter, they'll have a steal on their hands. He does have Torii Hunter potential, but without hard work and coachability, he's a lost cause, plain and simple.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 09:10 PM) Owens sucks Got that one right for sure. For what it's worth, I never said Crede, nor Dye, nor Contreras sucked...I actually like Dye and think he's underappreciated by quite a few. What I did say was that Crede and Contreras were not "really good." Those are your words. Believe it or not, there is middle ground between "suck" and "really good." Imagine that. (this has to do with the disrespectful tone; not only that someone would say that Contreras and Crede are really good, but when that thought is questioned, they immediately move to the other side of the spectrum. I never said they sucked. Read up a little bit and see that I've said that I think Contreras is due for a bounce back year, but I'd still move him if it helps the major league team. Crede I could quite honestly care less about because I think he's gone regardless, whether that's right or wrong) Not to call him out, but I'm quite sure that was Keith, ala CWSGuy. I have no idea what kind of year the Sox are in for; I imagine about 85 wins with the moves I expect the team to make while they have a shot at contention until September 1st. But thanks for accusing me of something I didn't say. Yeah, that's exactly it, there's no reasoning at all behind the thought. First, find where I said they were NEVER good. Then make this argument. In other words, this argument is meaningless, because I would never make such a ridiculous argument, and you are merely putting words in my mouth. Crede had very good years in 2005 (when healthy) and 2006, yet those years go unappreciated by some merely because of OPS. However, he's coming off a back surgery - which will almost assuredly take a step away from his range defensively - and there's no guarantee beyond that that he will stay healthy or even produce to where he did in 2005 at this point. Again, thanks for the over exaggeration. Gio probably is a #2 if absolutely everything goes right, but more likely a #3 starter (ala Jon Garland and Javy Vazquez...but yeah he still sucks). The knocks on him are his height, his injury concerns, and the possibility he will give up home runs (with consideration that he was a 20 year old, he still gave up 24 homers in 154.2 innings in 2006 in AA, which equates to roughly 1.4 homers per 9; he had a 1.46 GO/AO this year, while allowing 14 fewer homers, but the Hoov is a huge pitchers park, so the reduced homers should not come as a surprise, and his performance in AAA will be very indicative of the type of pitcher he is). Gio has pretty crazy good stuff, but his height really does hurt him in this. He's usually listed as 5'11, but people on here have said that they figure him to be about 5'8 or 5'9, which is super short; if he can get it up there, all should be fine and he'll give the Sox 100 good innings this year. The White Sox were, like, hands down the best team in baseball in the first half of 2006. Konerko and Dye were having amazing year, Crede was in the midst of the best year of his career, Thome was having a resurgence, the pitching staff was solid while the Tigers had seemingly gotten quite lucky throughout much of it, and they went into the break 2 games ahead of the Sox. The Sox have been a bad team ever since the ASB of 2006, like way below .500 (105-133, 28 games below .500, a .441 winning percentage). There have been problems with this team for a year and a half, and I still haven't seen them solved yet. QUOTE(iamshack @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 10:34 PM) Answer me this: If Jose Contreras is 47 or whatever it is you say he is (and I know you are exaggerating), how is it that he was able to dominate the league for a year when he was 45? He was old as hell in mid-05 to mid-06, why did that not preclude him from performing that way then? So logic says if he was able to be old as hell then and dominate, he should be able to be old as hell now and dominate. Now clearly I understand that all humans reach a point at which their bodies deteriorate. That deterioration makes it impossible to perform at a level which is necessary to be an effective professional sports player. But until you see the physical results of that deterioration, you simply cannot say he sucks because he is old. Jose still has a great arm. He still has great stuff. He certainly has the ability to get hitters out at a tremendous rate in major league baseball, IMHO. What else do we know about Jose? He is sort of weak mentally. He gets flustered easily, at least on the baseball field. And what else do we know? His wife left him. His family structure basically collapsed. Now I am not making excuses for him- plenty of ballplayers have played through situations like that- even excelled in them. But I don't think it's fair to ignore something like that either, especially given what we've seen in Jose's history before. I think he can still be a good pitcher in this league. If he did it when he was 2 years ago, he can do it still now. He still has a great arm. One injury. A back injury. He hasn't been the same pitcher since that point in time. Since I like to do it, and since it makes a pretty fair point, I'll throw some numbers and see if they stick: Aug 4, 2005 thru May 4, 2006 (his last start before going down with injury) ERA - 2.08 WHIP - 0.98 IP - 155.2 May 21, 2006 thru present ERA - 5.37 WHIP - 1.48 IP - 340.1 It is virtually impossible to disagree with the vast majority of your second paragraph, especially the first and last sentences, and I do believe that Contreras still has the second best arm in the White Sox rotation, even with the drop in velocity he has seen. He did have a good August and September, putting up a 3.84 ERA, and had a very good 55 inning stretch, but, if you look at WHIP as large factor in ERA, it was a bit of smoke and mirrors (3.11 ERA, 1.40 WHIP...that's nearly impossible to sustain, especially with a K/9 of 6.2 during that stretch). However, the part I disagree with is that Contreras can be the same pitcher he was 2 years ago; I do not believe he can be the same pitcher he was in 2005 and the early part of 2006; his back limits him too much. I still firmly believe he can be an effective pitcher for about 180 innings with a couple DL stints during the course of the season for him which is why it is important that the Sox have options at the minor league level for spot starts; fortunately for the Sox, they do. From what I understand, Broadway looked very good in his spot start, and I am looking for big things from him this year, as I expect him to go from a mediocre starting pitching prospect to the second best high level SP prospect in the White Sox system (behind Gio, ahead of Egbert...DLS is a wildcard, because I imagine he is either going to be called up mid year to be a setup man for the Sox, or he will remain in A+ and AA all year and further develop himself as a starter). So, in that regard, I am actually not worried. I'm merely playing the odds at this point. What I understand is that back problems tend to linger, and that surgery is iffy as hell, and, while surgery makes the pain tolerable, it also makes it generally painful all the time, which would be something Crede would have to adjust to over the course of the year. It is possible he could come back better, but I'm basically saying that I wouldn't count on it, and that I would imagine this back issue will become a recurring theme throughout his career, perhaps forcing him to an early retirement. I would also imagine it takes a step away from his range at 3B, which is his biggest asset. And, to throw some more stats at you, Crede after he got a cortisone shot (I believe during the 2005 season, which brought him to health) and his downfall in 2006 to present. Sept 10, 2005 thru Aug 11, 2006 (incl playoffs) .318/.358/.597/.955 - 491 ABs Aug 12, 2006 thru present .219/.263/.340/.603 - 320 ABs His back was absolutely killing him, and right now, nobody knows how he will recover, but it's not a guarantee he will recover well. If nothing can be brought back in value for him, he should be kept and put at 3B, because the White Sox have made worse risks (like last year when they had Erstad in CF...that is probably the dumbest move KW has ever made), and the downgrade in LF (Jerry f'in Owens?) is much worse than taking a risk on Joe Crede at 3B. If Owens is in LF, I'd imagine the Sox are in a pretty rough spot; if Crede is at 3B and Fields in LF, the Sox have a fair shot at competing, though I imagine they will still end around the 85 win mark. I do think quite highly of Crede; he's been an [under/over]appreciated player over the past 6 years, but he's still been a good player. There's no guarantee he will be good coming off his back surgery, and counting on him to return to even his 2003 form would be a mistake. The organization is in a down state; we are not yet the Giants nor the Orioles, but the potential remains that the Sox could get there. Honestly, if you can look through the bulls*** negativity, you can see quite a few people feel that way. However, the Sox are also not the Pirates, Nationals, or Rangers right now either; they are actually trying to compete. They could strive to be the Marlins, and due to the short-term, that would be great in the long-term. That's never going to happen; I'm not sure I'm happy with that thought, but I have to see what KW has in mind. In my mind, the goal is to become the Red Sox; a team whose minor league system is strong enough that they can implement players into the starting lineup, and those players will be quite good immediately. This will also maintaining the money supply to bring in name players, resign stars, and keep the bandwagon fan interested to the point where they will come regardless of whether you put out a disappointing 82-80 team or a 97-65 team. Basically, when the best does not occur, "we" become agitated. When good does not occur, "we" become upset and angry. When mediocre or worse occurs, "we" come outraged as hell.

QUOTE(Brian @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 11:07 PM) Anyone surprised they traded young and kept Dukes? or will Dukes be on his way out as well? They weren't going to get legitimate talent for Dukes. Basically for the package they gave up, they got an upgrade defensively at SS, a stud relief prospect, and a future stud in the rotation. I'm happy to see this trade because the Twins do get rid of arguably their best pitching prospect stuff wise; I'm saddened to see this because they added a bat with 1.000+ OPS potential and I don't get to watch Garza on a regular basis anymore.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 08:41 PM) Mark Fidyrich isn't hurt either...he's just recovering from surgery. Comparing Liriano to Fidrych fails to consider 25 years of medical advancements. So were Josh Beckett and Justin Verlander. Sure, in 10 innings, but he had a 4.65 ERA in AAA, so that seems to cancel that out entirely. And in his first 133 innings, he was terrible to the tun of a 7.24 ERA and some ungodly peripherals. As you shouldn't; they are worse than the Twins options.

Buehrle is going to be a 5-10 player come like June of 2009; at that point, he will have a full no-trade clause.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 05:39 PM) Oh, I was thinking maybe Bill Brasky. Really though, I perhaps do it too much; I get pissy pretty quickly, especially when it comes to baseball economics and statistics. However, whenever someone talks negatively about the Sox yet in high regard of the Twins, Tigers, or Indians, and a person then questions their fanhood by saying "But why be on Sox talk? I'm sure there's Twins talk down the dial," I feel I have the right to speak in a negative tone to that response; I'm merely fighting fire with fire. And then when he suggests that Crede and Contreras are good, when Contreras is 47 (or who knows how old) and coming off a year with a 5.50 ERA and Crede is coming off back surgery, I'll get pissy too because said person is lying. I also am not a huge fan of cliches, and suggesting that one franchise is better than the other because of "1 World Series in 3 years" (which is the third shortest time frame you could bring up) while not mentioning how well the organizations are actually run and the positions all 3-4 franchises are put into each and every year gets me too. First of all, the White Sox World Series run, though aided by talent, was full of luck as well; had the Sox not won game 2 of the ALCS, they could have very easily lost that series in Anaheim. Secondly, the organization has put itself in a pretty bad position since about the Vazquez trade (good as he was last year, having Chris Young in CF would solve a lot of problems, and the Sox would be able to put $20+ million more towards the rotation along with having McCarthy in the 4 spot next year); finally, the Indians were a game away from the World Series while Detroit actually made it to the World Series, so that in itself is a great accomplishment; I really don't understand how a World Series title in 2005 suddenly makes the White Sox a superior franchise at this exact moment in time to Cleveland and Detroit because they don't have one. People can be pissed about the people who look negatively upon these people all they want to; they are just as much in the wrong - if not less - as those who are blind homers (you are not, but there are some one here who qualify); so if people are to be critical of people who look upon this franchise negatively, they should be just as critical of those who look upon this franchise positively. The organization is getting better as putting the team in the best possible position to succeed; it's still not there yet.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 05:15 PM) You make a lot of good points in your posts, wite. But who the f do you think you are that you respond to people so disrespectfully? The Greek god Zeus

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 04:23 PM) I don't get the negativism. "nowhere near as good as the Twins"? Based on last year true...but last year where the Sox had a ton of injuries and career worst seasons...sort of 05 in reverse. One can look at our young players like Danks, Gio, Floyd, Fields and Richar and say "garbage. And look at the Twins young players and say stars. But why be on Sox talk? I'm sure there's TWins talk down the dial. I think the Tigers pitching staff looks awful. And they crashed last year in spite of guys like Ordonez having a career year...most of their team is as old or older than the Sox. Even Cleveland..while Paul Byrd and Bettancourt go 20-9 again next year? Because I'm a White Sox fan, and I will rip or root for my team all day long. I can be objective and realize the minor leagues are in shambles and that they could very easily solve that by trading away the expensive core of players for younger pieces and start a rebuilding period. Instead, they are going to try and win within the next 2 years and then see a terrible dropoff in the next 5-7 years after that because they will almost certainly have quite a few immovable contracts down the road. Crede and Contreras are really good players? Did you even watch the White Sox last year? And the thought of Gio Gonzalez going 15-5 next year - thanks for using wins BTW instead of a pitching stat that is actually telling of how well the pitcher actuallys pitches - is absolutely preposterous. And that World Series bulls*** line you put up is absolutely irrelevant to the White Sox and other teams' current states.

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 03:57 PM) Who is going to pitch for them? Where is this great Twins pitcher producing machine (outside of good relief pitching)? Bonser's not been very good. Nor Baker. Silva will leave in FA. Liriano's hurt. Trading Garza. Their top prospect Swarzak suspended for drugs?? Baseball Prospectus says the White Sox have three pitching prospects better than any Twins pitching prospect. What it MIGHT mean is the Yankees trading their top two or three prospects for Santana. That would be fascinating. Still...hard to replace the best pitcher in baseball...no matter how good the prospects look. You're right, Baker's 4.26 ERA in 140 innings last year was just god awful....GTFO Liriano is NOT hurt, he's recovering from surgery, so I don't knwo how you figure that. It's also funny how you don't mention Slowey at all, seeing as how he was the AAA starting pitcher of the year; imagine that, the Twins having the AAA pitcher of the year. A 4.72 ERA in his first 70 innings of work is also pretty damn impressive. So, as far as I can gather, their rotation next year, assuming a trade of Johan to the Yankees, is Liriano, Hughes, Baker, Slowey, and then one of a number of other pitchers that they will be able to throw in there and be more than adequate as a 5th starter. The Twins have pitching, you know it, and you are merely in denial.

QUOTE(Brian @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 04:44 PM) I liked Brendan Harris a lot. Came out of nowhere last year. Tampa must be set with Zobrist. How do you figure that? From 1st to 3rd, Pena-Iwamura-Bartlett-Longoria, with Brignac possibly taking over at SS next year. Zobrist seems like he's pretty much fallen out of the picture, what with a 60-day DL stint and a .509 career OPS in the majors.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 02:15 PM) Wow, including bartlett is retarded from the Twins perspective. He's a much better SS than Harris. Pridie was a guy who the Twins took in the Rule 5 a couple of years ago, but had to return. Looks like they overvalue him too. On the flip side, they are capitalizing on the value of one of their relief pitchers again who is going downhill quickly; Rincon had an ERA north of 5 last year, has seen his WHIP increase in each of the past 3 years, his K rate is going down, he allowed a ton of homers last year, and he's been suspended for PEDs. I also think they are making a great move by acquiring Young too, as he could be a pretty special player, and they can produce all the pitching they really want to. With a core of Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Young, the offense is quite formidable again and the pitching should be just fine, even if they trade Johan.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) Roster stands at 39 now, so we have room for our CF. Or, if the Sox plan on trading for one or making another move or two, adding Fernando Hernandez to the 40.

QUOTE(rockren @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 12:06 PM) No thanks. I'm glad he isn't on our team....even for what KW wanted to give him. I'm more alluding to the fact that I want Jerry Owens no where near the starting lineup than anything else.

QUOTE(DrunkBomber @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 05:26 AM) You also need to consider it if youre looking for a nice case of heartburn. This is true, which is why I have never actually drank it over the course of a night. A free one here or there is about all I have ever had.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Nov 28, 2007 -> 11:56 AM) Crisp is just not that great. Neither is Taveras. Not worth the money/prospects/players they would cost. If Rowand is asking for ridiculous money, if the Sawx are delusional enough to think they will get 3 good prospects for Crisp, if Fukodome goes elsewhere, and if the Sox can't swing a mega-deal for Andruw (signing) or Crawford (trade)... Then I think a backup plan should be signing Jenkins for LF, and going with Owens in CF. Trade Crede and Uribe for the best young prospects they can fetch. Then convince Torii Hunter to sneak into the Anaheim front office, burn his contract, and sign a better one with the White Sox.