beck72

If counseling is too extreme a suggestion, I'd suggest you take up another hobby besides the sox . Let's not get too crazy about the poor play. Either the sox start hitting or they'll be trading players come July. But we do have a few months in between

QUOTE(spiderman @ May 5, 2007 -> 10:41 AM) At what point do we become resigned to the fact that the White Sox are an average team - at best ? Since the all-star break last season, I believe the White Sox are actually under .500 - and we're talking somewhere around 100 games now. For the most part, our pitching staff has been fine (though Contreras in particular just does not look very good), but this offense just stinks, and it was my biggest concern entering the season. Did I think it would be this bad ? No, but I did know it was way to HR dependent, and it struggles to score runs when it doesn't hit HR's. This is too good of a division to struggle through an extended period. Yes, it's still early, but I don't know that we're good enough to be trailing 3 teams, and having to play catchup with an inconsistent offense. Am I overreacting ? Maybe, but this is based on 100 games now of this team just not being better than average. It's two different problems. Last year's poor 2nd half had more to do with pitching--both SP and bullpen. The offense this year has been horrible. Will it be this bad all year? No. But you're right. The AL Central is too good for the sox to struggle for an extended period. The sox could be chasing some teams all year. QUOTE(Soxfest @ May 5, 2007 -> 11:07 AM) Williams failed to address post all star break problems and his bench he put together in 2007 is horrid! He addressed the pitching problems. No GM in the world could count on having all his hitters barely hitting their weight. The sox bench is fine. If the sox [or any team] has to worry about the bench carrying the team, they are in big trouble.

I don't think it's a coincidence the team started playing better after Mark's no-hitter. He really seems to be a key leader--the kind they might "overpay" for, in terms of yrs or dollars. With that in mind, I could see the sox building a rotation around him with a 5 yr deal, around $15 mill per. While he's not the overpowering ace, he is that rock who will go 6-7 innings each game, throw 200 + innings, with a mid 3 ERA. Getting solid starting pitching will still be a key for the sox. Yet they can't spend half their team salary on it. That would mean the sox would probably have to deal Contreras in the offseason. That way the sox could still get a good return and lower salary. I guess it depends on how high and long teams are willing to go in their offers to Mark. It may come to a point that the sox can't go that high.

A huge component missing from the BA/ Erstad debate has to do with how the sox roster is currently constructed, esp the pitching and the type of hitters the sox have. The sox are built around having the SP's going to the 6th, 7th inning with the game close, and the bullpen then takes over to keep the score as it is. With the game either tied or within a run a two, the sox want more consistency or predictability from their offense to compliment the power bats they have. Consistency to me means having guys who can work counts, put the ball in play, manufacture runs through bunts, hitting the opposite way, making productive outs, and who can run the bases. For all the small ball talk, the sox are very reliant on the 3 run homer. IMO, the sox need a guy who can do the little things Erstad does. He compliments the 3-7 hitters [Thome, PK, Dye, Crede and AJ] rather nicely. BA isn't likely to give the sox, this year, the "consistency" as I defined above. Even though he has a higher ceiling than Erstad. The debate isn't who will be the better player in a year or two. Or who has more talent or baseball tools. BA wins that debate. It's who gives the sox the best chance of winning on a daily basis, with the roster as is. Ozzie certainly thinks it's Erstad. I agree.

QUOTE(Jay @ Apr 22, 2007 -> 07:10 PM) Erstad should be the starter because we don't know what he's going to do? That's really a glowing recommendation. We don't know what Joe Borchard will do either, but I'm comfortable with him being elsewhere, rather than being handed a starting job here that he never earned. Erstad's earned it by his hustle, preparation, ability to work counts, hit situationally, and decent track record of having consistent AB's. Over the years, Ozzie has given his veterans a lot of time to get their bats going. He should do the same for Erstad. While Erstad may not stay in the leadoff spot--he's there out of necessity with Pods being hurt--his defense and ability to do the little things well should keep him in the lineup FWIW, you and I don't have a say in who stays or goes.

Nice spot for some power Joe! Can you say, this team is on a roll, with strong pitching and clutch hitting.

QUOTE(Buehrle>Wood @ Apr 22, 2007 -> 06:49 PM) One post and yet he already knows the ways of Sxotalk. Very nice! Welcome aboard. As for your thoughts, you will not find many who disagree with you here. Ozzie's newspaper lovefest with GrindErstad the past few days has been sickening. I think you'll find more disagree than you think. It's not worth the time

Now it's a battle of the bullpens. May the best arms win

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Apr 22, 2007 -> 10:54 AM) Talk to me in 2 years when Beltre's hitting 35 plus and Crede's putting up mediocre numbers for Anaheim. Beltre isn't worth the $12 mill he's getting for the next 3 yrs. Is Crede worth that much? No. Is Joe worth the $4.95 mill he's getting, and the likely $6 mill he'll get in ARB for 2008? Probably. Yet the sox are likely to go with the Josh Fields experiment in 2008, and not see much of a drop off Seattle's paying Beltre to be a #3, 4 hitter but he's producing like a #6, 7 hitter. That isn't likely to change much, and is probably why they have been trying to unload his contract.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Apr 21, 2007 -> 07:32 PM) and he's still better than Crede. Not for the difference in salary. QUOTE(Kalapse @ Apr 22, 2007 -> 04:16 AM) This has nothing to do with acquiring players, I'm merely rating them on their performance and skill sets, listing players who I believe to be superior to Crede. I'm not sure what thread you're reading. When you said you'd "take him over Crede", I thought it was with building a sox team in mind.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Apr 21, 2007 -> 12:31 AM) So now he's clean and still putting up equal numbers to Crede. What does that even mean, better fit? He's an equal or better hitter with huge offensive potential, a year younger, much faster, has no injury concerns at all and is a similar defensive player. I don't see why having a huge contract year should be a negative when judging him as a player now. The point is, I'm sure Beltre isn't even on the Sox minds--his huge contract and probable roid use are just two reasons. The sox have Fields for 3b.

QUOTE(fathom @ Apr 21, 2007 -> 12:23 AM) When did he hit well? Tonight. Nice game winning RBI, huh?

QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Apr 21, 2007 -> 12:14 AM) What gives you this confidence? When he's been healthy, he's hit. Erstad doesn't look that horrible. Look at some of Crede's, Dye's and Paulie's swings. If you think they'll snap out of it, Darrin should as well.

Joe isn't going anywhere. Not unless the sox are far, far out of it come the deadline. His kind of stellar d is what will keep the sox pitchers in games. And his bat will heat up. And Brian's trade value is at an all time low. QUOTE(Kalapse @ Apr 20, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) Speaking of Adrian Beltre, I'd take him over Crede as well. Even last season, a year that wasn't considered all that great by mainstream baseball fans Adrian put up nearly identical numbers to Crede, right down to the 108 OPS+. Adrian is an incredibly skilled defensive player, is a year younger than Crede, actually has some wheels and has put up a season that makes you think there is some ultra-elite offensive player hiding inside him. He also has a clean bill of health, playing in atleast 156 games each of the past 5 seasons. Beltre--nothing like hitting the juice in a contract year. Crede is a much better fit on the sox than a guy like Beltre.

QUOTE(shawnhillegas @ Apr 21, 2007 -> 12:10 AM) It is absolutely amazing that a man with the foresight to acquire Dewon Day, Danks, Aardsma, Thornton, Jenks, etc., can stick with Darrin Erstad. Watching this performance only further confuses me. If Erstad's hitting like this in mid may they won't continue sticking with him. The only guy hitting his more than his weight is Thome. Erstad's bat will be fine.

It's not going to happen. And it shouldn't. Unless the sox are still hitting like this in late May, Walker isn't going anywhere. No hitting coach will be able to turn around all these veteran hitters with a magic wand and fix all their problems. Most of these hitters know the problem just as well as Walker, and will correct them in time. The sox may need a fall guy if the team is still collectively slumping two months in. Yet I'm pretty sure the hitters will get on track by then.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 04:20 AM) the point is that I think relegating Anderson to the scrap heap is silly after one bad season. But, I can honestly understand that a team built to contend might not want to take a chance on Anderson again. So it would be best for everyone if he was traded, and somehow the Sox brought in a CF that they were willing to start over Erstad. I don't think Anderson is being relegated to the scrap heap. He's just not playing in April. Who's to say he won't have an impact in May, June or July? With Erstad's and Pods injury history, BA will likely see extended playing time this yr. As for trading BA, for what? Who will play CF? BA will be kept and heard from this yr. We are only ten games into the season. IIRC, Ozzie is the one who would like Brian to play everyday in AAA, to keep developing according to his public comments [and I'd agree with him, if the sox had a decent option as a 4th OFer]. KW and the coaches are the ones who seem to want BA to be the 4th OFer. Doesn't sound like they are ready to wash their hands of him.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 12:03 PM) I was probably being a little overdramatic just to make a point...and you can work your way backwards to something more reasonable and realistic, and of course KW wants to (has to, for White Sox fans only support a winner) put a competitive team out on the field, but I think in his heart of hearts he knows the odds are very much against him these next couple of seasons. We've already gotten two breaks with Liriano and Rogers. I wouldn't count on anymore, and we lost Hall ourselves, who was the one "big" acquisition of the offseason, along with Danks/Masset. But you can see the approach KW is taking supports my general theory...that he's anticipating another pretty large turnover of roster to get the ballclub he really wants assembled for a 3-5 year run together as a group, like Cleveland and Minnesota have done, and Detroit with their starting pitching and veteran line-up. I agree, the leadoff position might end up being the most important move of all....and whether it's a veteran like Ichiro or a prospect in High A, AA or AAA will tell us a lot about the direction of this ballclub. (Yes, I know, someone will mention Owens and I will say that's about a 10-15% chance at this point...but we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out). The sox off season moves [that solidified their bullpen and rotation for the next few yrs] to me showed that there is no huge sell off coming. With strong enough pitching--and the sox arms in AA and AAA are strong right now--the sox can contend every yr no matter what the lineup looks like. The sox are trying to insulate themselves from rebuilding by getting their pitching staff [bullpen and starters] to be in the top 5 in the AL. And having the necessary depth to absorb key injuries. Whether the pitching can do it or not remains to be seen--I think the sox staff should be in the top 5 this yr though. I like KW's proactive approach and think it will work. It wasn't predicated on what the other AL central teams were doing or on injuries. But on making the sox a stronger long term team, without weakening the team in the short term. Even though a guy like Ichiro won't make the sox younger, he could make them better over the course of the next 4, 5 yrs than a guy like Dye.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 05:10 AM) Thus the deals for Garcia and McCarthy. The disparity in age and talent between us and divisional opponents is why I, among others, stress that Williams needs to make deals which give him the best possible package. Not just concentrating on project pitchers with past failures, missing velocity, and limited minor league success. You know who I'm referring to. Too much inconsistency among those names. Can you imagine a lineup where 6-9 is Fields, Uribe, Sweeney, Anderson. /puke. We'll be overwhelmed by strikeouts and low averages. IMO, the sox dealt for the best pitching they could for Bmac and Freddy--that still allowed the sox to win in 2007 and the next few yrs. Going for the best deal wouldn't necessarily have improved the pitching right away or in 2008. Trading Bmac could have netted the sox a Hanley Ramirez type position player propsect. But they added two pitching pieces that seem to fit both short and long term. And I could imagine a 6-9 like you mentioned. But only with an all star like Ichiro hitting #1.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Apr 15, 2007 -> 11:18 AM) For that to happen, we'll have to re-sign Gooch, and probably let at least 1 of Dye or Buehrle go. Probably, if you signed Ichiro, you'd let Dye go, and then possibly either let Sweeney take over, or sign a high risk FA in the off-season who could produce good numbers hitting at the Cell. Re-signing Iguchi has probably been the plan all along with no viable backup plan for 2B. Whether that would help sign Ichiro is a different story, depending on if they get along. Ichiro probably wants to go a perennial playoff contender. If the sox make the playoffs this yr, that would be one of the best selling points. Yet both Dye and Mark should be elsewhere because they both should get offers of more yrs and more money from another team. If the sox should "overpay" for anyone, it should be for a top of the order guy like Ichiro. That would allow the sox to ease guys like Sweeney and Fields into the bottom of the lineup. The main thing is I don't think the sox will be blowing up the club like Caufield states. Whatever moves are made will be for the sox to still be competitive. with strong pitching, they'll compete for the playoffs yr in and yr out.

Is all this due to the fact that Dye, Thome, Pk, AJ, Iguchi, Erstad are not even hitting their weight, though it's 10 games into the season?! All these guys should get to their career avg's barring injury. They just have too long a track record not to. Your larger point about the position players getting old is very legit though. Yet the sox rotation and bullpen, and prospects near ready [AA and above], are very close to the other AL Central teams [santana will get a record deal and the Twins won't be the ones to give it to him]. And is bound to get even better. The sox should keep adding pitching until they have the best and deepest system in baseball. Right now, most teams are an injury or two away from missing the playoffs. The sox have solidified both their rotation and bullpen from an arm going down. Unless the sox are like 10 games out from a playoff spot come the trade deadline, Kw won't move guys. The sox can get picks for both Dye and MB and can take some high end, high upside position player talent with those. The sox have gone after pitching for years and need to focus on getting a few 5 tool players. IMO, it's very reasonable that the sox could sign Ichiro [even though he'll be 34, he plays much youinger and should for the next 4, 5 yrs with his SB's, high avg, and OBP]. With him on board, they could add guys like Sweeney and Fields into the lineup. With Pk and Thome still in the middle, the Sox lineup wouldn't look that much different than those from the other AL central teams. IMO, this offseason was just the first stage of rebuilding. With the arms in AA and AAA doing well, it looks like KW's vision of contending each and every yr with the pitching should hold. And remember that arms can be used for landing position players too. A huge sell off won't be coming.

Very nice job of attacking Hafner, Javy. I think we're seeing the makings of an ace.

The tigers have the same target on their backs [from other AL teams, as they were the ALCS winner, who want to knock off the top team] that the sox did last year. Even the cellar dwelling teams like KC and TB will get up for them. If the pitching does drop off a bit--which it should--the offense was never particularly strong. And the defense was poor. I'm still looking at the Twins and Indians to battle with the sox, and the tigers for 4th place.

Young has always had the speed and power. It's his batting avg. that has been a concern. He still has a career avg under .270 in the minors. I don't expect him to suddenly hit better than that in the bigs. Unless AZ can accept him hitting .225-.240, I see Young going back down to AAA this year.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 31, 2007 -> 04:03 AM) If the White Sox pitching can give me 4 things, we will win this division. 1. A solid bullpen. 2. A Solid #1 (presumably Jose.) for the whole season. 18-20 games won, ERA under 3.50. 3. A solid # 2 (Mark or Jon) for the whole season. 15 games+ won, ERA well under 4.00. 4. 3 guys who are average. ERA's between 3.75 and 4.5. W-L records close to .500. If the pitching staff can show up, this team can still win it all. I've been very encouraged by solid outings from MG and JG over the last 2 days. Jopefully Javy keeps it up tomorrow. Well said. If the sox can get that kind of pitching, that should be enough to make the playoffs at least. Getting better pitching than what you posted would be even more likely they'd be equipped to go deep into the playoffs. I'm of the mind the sox should get 2 guys who fit your definition of a solid #2, and two who are avg.