caulfield12

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:50 PM) He and his agent are keeping this very very quiet. Casey Close and Gordon. They said that from the get go. He was Jeter's agent too, right? The guy has an almost impeccable reputation compared to some agents.

QUOTE (JRL @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:38 PM) Not really sure how Cespedes is more "dynamic and exciting" and a more "natural companion piece to Abreu in terms of teammates/camaraderie and marketing." Are you just trying to say that they are both Cuban? That would have been easier. Cespedes' defense, even as a corner outfielder (much less the center fielder you suggest he could competently be) has declined in recent seasons and Upton's has improved to the point where the metrics say they're about the same (Upton was actually slightly better in 2015, but only negligibly so). 200 ABs is not a significant sample size, especially when those ABs are randomly dispersed and not on a consistent basis. For any player we can pick out even the best of hitters we could go through all their ABs and find 200 of them over which they hit around 207. I'm not sure why Upton's 2015 performance against the AL should be viewed any differently, especially since he's a career 276 hitter vs the AL. For that matter I'm not sure why anyone's uncharacteristically good or bad performance vs the AL or NL specifically should be viewed differently than the result of randomness. People always cite those numbers, but is there some type of statistic I'm missing showing AL pitching to be, on the whole, substantially more difficult to hit against? Cespedes' clearly outlier 2015 season and his very good rookie year sandwiched 2 pretty unimpressive seasons. Obviously Cespedes was a disaster in CF in the playoffs. I just said he could play it, didn't use the word competently in my description. Which defensive metrics are you using? Earlier in the thread, we had three years of DRS and that clearly favored Cespedes, and a large part of that was his huge outfield arm and the number of assists he piles up. Yes, I do prefer the "flamboyant" Cuban style of play, but that's just a personal thing. Upton is or has been a close to great player, but never quite lived up to the superstar hype. That's not to say Cespedes is any better, they're obviously very different types of player/s. Same with Gordon, for that matter. I just think in terms of his personality, we need someone like that to wake up the clubhouse. Adding Lawrie, Frazier...things were just so "dull" and "blah" last year from the point that Shark fell apart not so long after we decided to hold onto him. There's no way to quantify it or stick a number or rating, just a general feeling, and then the concern about transitioning to the AL...where the biggest issue for the White Sox seemingly every season is getting out of the gates early or being left buried for dead with the fans and media.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:26 PM) I'm all in on Cedpedes. He doesn't cost a draft pick, had recent success in the AL, provides the team with much needed offensive punch AND has a cannon of an arm to help improve either LF or RF. Hopefully Abreu was in his ear during their Cuba trip. Frazier and Cespedes had 194 RBIs between them both in 2015. Talk about much needed production! The biggest question if how much of a premium are teams willing to give up to keep their draft picks and sign Cespedes instead of Upton or Gordon? Another year in terms of length? How much in terms of AAV would you increase to not to lose the pick? With Gordon, you're taking away one of their best players (see Thome to the Twins, Victor Martinez instead of Dunn to the Tigers, Miggy to Detroit instead of Chicago)...but then you're also giving the Royals another draft pick. Frankly, KC is going to be rebuilding/retooling in 2018 and 2019, so that consideration has to be WAY behind in terms of all the issues to consider. The major concern has to be the Tigers on any of those three...either raising the price or ending up taking them away and the White Sox getting "stuck" with a second/third tier option. With Verlander, J.Zimmermann, A.Sanchez, Kinsler, Miggy, the Martinezes, Iglesias, Maybin, the Tigers are in the same exact boat as us now in terms of being forced to go back to "all in" and not rebuild.

Kudos to Lillian for not falling back on the whole LH fascination and advocating for Alex Gordon, haha. (It's pretty amazing how quiet things have actually been on that front, compared to Cespedes and Upton. All you hear is/was what the Cardinals and KC SUPPOSEDLY offered him or initially wanted to offer him, but even that's pretty much unconfirmed. Lots of rumors.)

Which is the one who used to write for the Sporting News? I remember that name, and Tracy Ringolsby, who I think writes for the Denver Post still...

Cespedes is a much more dynamic and exciting player. He's a natural companion piece to Abreu in terms of teammates/camaraderie and marketing. He can also play any of the OF positions, but is much stronger in RF and LF. Having Cespedes and Eaton together improves your defense quite a bit...and psychologically, knowing you have a competent fielder on your left side allows you to cheat a bit more to the other side and protect Cabrera in the gap. Upton is an average fielder, at best. All of his value comes from hitting and speed/athleticism, which is on the verge of declining in the next couple of years with all of the wear and tear on his body from being healthy for such a long stretch. Yoenis is proven in the AL and NL. He basically was the borderline NL MVP last year, certainly for the last two months. He performed well in both the AL West and AL Central. Upton hasn't shown that...doesn't mean he's not capable, but it's not a given at this point either, not with all the recent issues we've had in that area (LaRoche, Dunn, Samardzija, etc.) With his age and the current White Sox "open window" of 2016 and 2017, a contract for four years for Cespedes with higher average value (or maybe an opt-out again after 2017) makes a lot more financial sense than possibly being "stuck" with Upton for six years. Upton hasn't hit very well the last three years against the AL in inter-league play, only a .207 average in over 200 at-bats.

They also didn't play Saladino much at SS the last two months when it would have been the perefect time to audition him. Seemingly out of respect for Alexei, but Tyler should have played more often there since the games were meaningless at that point...they must have known internally that they were going to move on from Alexei.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 11:28 AM) When the Cubs signed Zobrist, did anyone mention his defense dropped by 25.9 dWAR. Of course not He's definitely better in RF than 2b...he won't kill you like a Murphy or Avi/Viciedo, but he has been slipping. That said, he was quietly an offensive force last year in the second half.

Let's hope the solution isn't Nick Markakis, either. This is not where you split the difference and go for second tier guys making $12-16 million like Melky, Fowler, Span, etc. You either go huge or you come up with that creative value platoon of a Raburn/Parra. Definitely not sexy, but possibly quite effective. Avi could platoon with LaRoche...although that gives you five outfielders, Sanchez and a catcher as the bench. I'm pretty sure Raburn can still play a few of the infield positions...not SS obviously.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 10:59 AM) Can Raburn play the outfield defensively anymore? If so, I'd love a Parra/Raburn RF platoon. You realize Raburn turns 35 in the first two weeks of the season...? Parra's only 28, surprisingly. In theory, it would work. Raburn crushed lefties with over a 1.000 ops and Parra was a notch above 800 against righties. It's not going to sell any tickets, but it just might be effective. Of course, we had 3b platoons set up over the last three years that looked similarly promising on paper.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 10:42 AM) would you just take your rain cloud to another corner and pout there? Celebrate all you want, but the most important part of the offseason is whether or not JR will open the wallet on Upton, Gordon or Cespedes. Do that, you win back everyone you've lost and skepticism diminishes almost completely. Start Opening Day with Avi, Saladino and LaRoche in the line-up and expectations are tempered. Half-assed and pointless. Hanley Ramiez, CarGo, Ethier, Blackmon, Peralta, Fowler, Span or Parra leaves you somewhere in-between. 3/4's of the way but that undoubtedly means the Tigers and/or Royals have one of Upton, Gordon, Davis, Desmond or Cespedes.

The argument is clear....Rodon, Q, Eaton, Sale and Abreu...along with Anderson and Fulmer, is a lot easier to build around and support than tear down and rebuild again from scratch. That said, they're not a playoff contender yet.

At least they're being more definitive moving on with players that are no longer part of the solution. Viciedo, DeAza, Beckham, Conor, Ramirez, Flowers ... with Avi, Danks and LaRoche the next to be gone. There was nothing worse than repeating the same tired recipe and expecting different results somehow to magically occur.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 09:45 AM) As I said, if the payroll limit stays at 120M then the money isn't there unless the Sox move salary which is one of the reasons why I'm speculating on Parra. Last I read, the Rockies are aiming rather high in a return for their outfielders so I'm not really counting on that either. How much do the Sox have left to trade without dipping into the likes of Anderson, Fulmer and Adams? Nothing of significance. It would be idiotic to authorize the Frazier trade and then force Hahn to make any remaining moves from the trade market unless they're at the very least willing to take on a not insignificant amount of salary for CarGo, Ethier, Crawford, Hanley Ramirez, etc.

Of course ask the idiotic KW vs. Hahn question for the thousandth time this year...did they ask about Ventura and everything else but the need for one more big offensive addition?

Just wait. The Frazier move has everyone excited for the moment, but if that's it, the prevailing theme definitely will be how do you go back to all-in yet again but go about it halfway? The White Sox would struggle to finish third in the division where they stand now.

Welcome to the "White Sox are cheap and don't care as much about winning as the bottom line" offseason when all the remaining big names come off the board and musical chairs leaves the Sox as the last team left out in the cold. Half-in=death by 1,000 knife cuts

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:59 AM) That is the more likely scenario. Signing Upton or Cespedes is pretty farfetched in reality. Hahn won't be the GM past 2017 if that's the best he can come up with...half-in doesn't cut it here. Especially with all the AL Central teams seemingly vulnerable and one huge signing swaying the balance. God help us if Detroit signs one of those guys and we're left holding the bag.

Boo! That would suck the air out of the balloon and piss off the marketing department in one fell swoop...might as well sign Franklin Gutierrez too.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:52 AM) I'm really starting to think the Sox end up signing Parra. Plays RF, a bit of speed, no comp pick and will not cost as much as the big three FA outfielders. He profiles along the lines of what the Sox are suspect to be looking for. Well, minus the power. With his (past) defensive stud reputation, the Royals end up with him, Span or Austin Jackson. Or we test the NL to AL theory for another veteran player again. Parra and Avi just isn't good enough to move the needle. Three years ago, there was a much better case to be made for him. CarGo's more likely the fallback...or Ethier/Crawford because KW loves his brand name veterans.

QUOTE (daggins @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:48 AM) Eh, Shuck is cheap but isn't good. There's not much behind him, so more depth is better. Not talking about breaking the bank, but like, Victorino or even De Aza would be nice to have. Austin Jackson because he's a better defender with more speed and younger.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:27 AM) That is just the same talk that a few from every team's fanbase feels necessary when they are disgruntled. I'm willing to bet they watch the Reds opening day. And tune out the next day...

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:26 AM) More Levine regurgitation of other's ideas and writings. He even tried to justify sending LaRoche to Pitt, an idea that was already turned down by Pitt. How does Levine have a job? Anyone have an idea of what Gordon is looking for as far as contract length? Five obviously, but most teams prefer 4...and 3 would be ideal. Realistically, four's the shortest....unless they just have insane frontloading or a favorable opt-out after just two seasons.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:36 AM) Adam Dunn Adam LaRoche It's not a theory...it's fact. Or maybe it's just players named Adam. Eaton has done pretty well though, another Adam.

Upton against AL the last three years. 217 ab's, 22 runs, 45 hits, 8 doubles, 7 homers, 23 RBI's, .207 BA AL Central .273, 15 for 55, 2 homers and 6 RBI's. The fact that he's a LFer and Cespedes has a much better arm for RF and the whole NL enigma...along with the fact that Cespedes will require 1-2 less years...has to be him between just those two.