caulfield12

As long as he doesn't get hung out to try like Stanek at the end of the Futures Game, then even a period of failure/adjustment at the big league level SHOULD be helpful to his eventual development. Just not convinced that rushing Fulmer and Burdi into our bullpen isn't eventually going to come back to bite them. So far, they were right on Tim Anderson (except for the patience to accept walks)...but the results are far from conclusive on Carlos Rodon 14-15 months later in terms of his developing the secondary pitches he needed to at BIRM/CHAR to experience sustained success as a starter.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 06:30 PM) The sox did spend $68 million on unknown Jose Abreu. I mean I wanted Moncada when he was a FA but I can't get too pissed off because they did spend on Abreu. Unknown to American baseball fans. Not to the professional scouting community or anyone who follows Cuban baseball. He's not a flashy player, so he didn't get as much attention as Cespedes and Puig, but every scout in the world had him on their radar. (As we have mentioned 100 times, most of the big market players that offseason weren't looking to replace their 1B, I think the other two primary suitors were the Rockies and Astros.)

Great, Dick Allen has raised another $20-22 million in revenue to spend. Oops, it just went out the window. Even if we were averaging 35,000 rather than 21,000+, it wouldn't be enough to afford Yoenis Cespedes for this season. http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2006 36,511 per game http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensa...cago-white-sox/ White Sox raised the payroll by A WHOPPING $6 million dollars to reward all those fans from 2006, going into the 2007 season. Not to mention the ticket price increases going into 2006, borne by the fans of a World Series-winning team. There's no way to believe the White Sox are suddenly going to change 35 years of history. Most of their money gets plugged into the major league roster. Always has been this way, with just a few exceptions like Borchard and Vicedo, and those two were seen as relatively advanced prospects (compared to high schoolers). In all likelihood, we would have ended up with Alex Gordon...and not be any better off for it, except having another bad contract on their hands. I still don't see any reason to believe the White Sox were going to bid $30 million for Cespedes to play for them in 2016...it beggars belief. The one and only exception to that has been Albert Belle, and luckily they had the escape clauses in that deal or they would have been totally screwed. While I would like to believe they'd invest in the Yoan Moncadas, rather than the Tanakas (always coming in second or third) and Abreus, just don't see it happening.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/why-the-c...-013715997.html Why the Cubs Think They'll Be Okay Tim Brown, Yahoo Sports

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?g...ox&sid=milb Morneau was 1/3. Our old friend Moises Sierra playing in that AA game and hitting .343 as his career winds down.

Thompson also had a lot of game-winning hits during that hot streak. Should we take all of those wins of the board, too...because they happened in one "hot stretch"? Couldn't we do that with 80-90% of pitchers and hitters? Let's just put it this way. The Dodgers are confident enough in him, Pederson, Kendrick and eventually Ethier to trade Puig now.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos...false/minpa/250 Going by WAR, Thompson is 41st out of the 66 MLB outfielders with over 250 PA's at 0.8. Over a full season, roughly 1.5. By OPS, 47th. That still has a lot of value, for a first/second year player with a dirt cheap contract. It means he would be right around the middle of statistical comparison with "second outfielders" on most MLB teams...with many non-qualified players putting up lower numbers, the same as we talk about with pitchers all the time and how many with terrible stats don't show up because they don't record enough innings to qualify. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos...false/minpa/250 There are a ton of "big names" with large contracts on this list behind Thompson. And a lot of them play in better parks for offense than Dodgers' stadium, especially night games when the marine layer comes in (more impact in SD, but still affects LA, SF and Safeco). Marcus Semien has been around the 13th or 14th SS going by WAR/OPS on a consistent basis, nearly all season long...and those numbers would be even better playing 81 home games at USCF vs. O.Co. That also has a LOT of value.

Who was the last really refined collegiate hitter we took? Beckham and Jeremy Reed are the only names that come to mind. Borchard and Fields were more pieces of work in progress, toolsy/athletic getting by with natural athletic ability against lower levels of competition. Same thing with Brian Anderson.

New White Sox motto: Hey, At Least We Avoiding Paying Penalties for Bringing in Premium Talent Like The Cubs Kind of goes against the argument that they don't care about winning, and/or they still believe paying the penalties to be worth it compared to having to overpay for players like Lester or Heyward. And that's probably right, all things considered. Same with the way the Red Sox have been doing things ever since Epstein arrived. Exploit market inefficiencies...in this case, the fact that only about 8-10 teams in the major leagues can afford to employ this strategy and absorb the losses that it entails for the diamonds that are unearthed.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 05:28 PM) That was part of it. He was pissed off that Larry wouldn't trade any kids for players like Mike Scott who was mentioned as potentially going to the Sox and after the A's claimed both Baines and McGee at the waiver deadline when the Sox could have blocked the move by claiming them, he called jeff Torborg in his hotel room and asked "what's going on?" (Jeff told me that himself. Add in the trade that Himes nixed before the 1990 season opened (Yankess wanted to send Hal Morris and Bernie Williams to the Sox for Steve Lyons and Eric King) and his refusal to let Frank Thomas open the season with the big club plus the personality differences between the two men and a breakup was bound to happen, which it did in mid September. Mark Wow, never heard about that potential deal. Why is that we always seem to get the best of the Yankees in trades, but very few other teams?

Five years of being content with being "mediocre at best" is preferable? What is hilarious is that some are arguing that a major reason to NOT rebuild correctly is because the current front office in charge of "competing on the fly" isn't doing a very good job of that, so how could they possibly pull off a rebuild and NOT actually make things worse? Tons of logic there. Fear that things could get worse? Worse HOW? The fact of the matter is that many White Sox fans have given up complaining and have simply turned to other interests that provide them and their families a higher return on investment for their time and money. Because they know complaining is pointless and won't change anything. But they also don't expect things to turn around any time soon for this particular franchise, its owner, its admin/front office and coaching staff. They're just going to wait patiently in the weeds for a playoff team to come around, and then jump back on the bandwagon like happened in 2005 and 2006. No matter what...even if our attendance fell to #28-30 (which wouldn't take much at all), we'd simply roll down the payroll and still be profitable. JR wouldn't sell, the same stadium lease agreement would be in place at least until 2029. They'd still be worth a billion dollars as a franchise, because the riding tide of the NBA and 75% of MLB is going to pull them up regardless of how poorly they are managed.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/189181302/fu...eads-world-win/ That play in RF by Jimenez was amazing...better than his two hits. If you didn't know who it was beforehand, you'd think it was the player Byron Buxton was PROJECTED to be by everyone. Margot was impressive as well....fouling off about 15 pitches, defensively, speed/tools, etc.

You also have to consider that the Rangers were one of the first teams to enjoy the boom in exploding regional network broadcast deals. Not bad, considering they went from near-bankruptcy due to Hicks' shenanigans around the globe. The Cardinals are a "decent example" because of their limited local market/tv deal, but they've had the best fan/attendance of any team in baseball over the last 20-30 years out of all the "mid/small" market teams. "Best fans in baseball," etc. Cardinals' Way/Cardinals' Nation. Of course, they earned that by being a consistently winning franchise over many generations of players. Right up there with the Yankees on the NL side.

Berman was TERRIBLE in 2005 back in that series against the Red Sox with his homerism. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/allsta...sed-how-fun-are Dave Schoenfield ranks the entire All-Star roster 1-64 based on "how fun they are"

Fwiw, KW was talking a LOT about OBP five years ago...and certainly in reaction to Moneyball, but it was just that, lots of talk. The irony is that the one "athletic/toolsy" guy who could actually take some walks (Thompson) was traded away. We drafted Mitchell (who actually wasn't too bad in this area, either) and Hawkins...and Tim Anderson's troubles with drawing walks are well-documented. Signed Viciedo, etc. So yeah, pretty strange we KNEW there was an OBVIOUS problem, yet it took 10+ years after trading for Thome (OBP machine) to finally do something about it. Finally, clear direction emerged...after all this time.

QUOTE (dasox24 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 04:03 PM) Co-sign. Couldn't have said it better myself. We said this after the 2014 season, when a lot of those free agent pick-ups wet the bed and the team got off to such a terrible start. Our system lost a number of players who could have made contributions at the major league level (Semien, Montas and Thompson being the best examples)...and we simply ran out of money to spend to complete the roster because too much money was being allocated to Danks, LaRoche, Cabrera and David Robertson. In order for your comment to be correct, Kenny Hahn would need to go out and spend $10-12 and perhaps $15 million in contracts for the remainder of this year and take on salary commitments (Bruce/Cargo, etc.) for next year as well (because of the lack of impact FA's, and the number of large market franchises competing for them)...as they did with James Shields, to cover up the lack of depth/productivity from the largely depleted minor league system. Otherwise, a "roll the dice" franchise-defining Q trade is all but inevitable. We've been saying this for a long time, and it has never been more apparent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:55 PM) My guess would be very few, if any, have done it consistently over more than a period of say five years or more. With mid-markets, the payroll forces a break up, which it about impossible to recover from without the resources of a large market team. So while a team like the 90's Indians can come along once in a while, the shelf-life is limited. The other one I can think of the Braves playoff run. Other than that, probably no one has done this, no matter what stipulations you put on it. Let's cut it down to 3...anyone come to mind? In the "modern" era since around 2000? I think 4 years is absolutely pushing it these days in terms of a competitive window. You have to have a little luck and good health. The Twins are the team that comes into mind because they sustained that window from 2002 (2001 they really pushed the Indians) all the way through their pretty remarkable 2010 season. Tigers have 2006-2014...and their free-spending owner (which disqualifies them, even though they received comp picks for being "mid market" in name only, like St. Louis). So we can cross them out. The Royals, but they went through a prolonged rebuilding period, and they couldn't sustain injuries to Cain, Davis, Moustakas and Gordon (at least seemingly). The Indians have gone through two massive rebuilds (post 2001 and post 2007) in the last 15 years. They aren't even "mid market" anymore, they're the BOTTOM of the market, but they made the playoffs in 2013 and look to be well set up for a 2-3 or even 4 year run at present. Of course, for Cleveland to go from 2007 to 2013...well, there was a lot of fan "duress" along the way, for a franchise that set the record for consecutive sellouts in Jacobs Field during the heart of their 1995-2001 run of success.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:37 PM) The big problem is that their TV contract is up in 2019. Are you willing to risk a rebuild being at a place in 3 years, well two really because 2016 is pretty much a sunk cost, to where their is fan interest enough for getting them the best possible TV deal? Two years from now is probably going to be the bottom point of the rebuild. Are you willing to risk an injury to Sale/Q/Rodon that would wipe out any chance of turning ONE of those three pitchers into assets like Moncada, Benitendi, Profar/Gallo/Brinson, etc.??? Then they WOULD be forced to pretty much rebuild anyway...but not on their conditions or control, but selling off pieces under duress like the Padres are doing now. This is where JR needs to decide if he's REALLY all-in this season or they have to look at trading one of Sale/Q in order to get 2-3 potential impact hitters/position players. We ABSOLUTELY know it's not going to happen through free agency (2016-17 free agent class)...and the odds of "winning" trades for guys like Frazier, Robertson and Cabrera (where the acquiring team is taking on salary and giving up lesser prospects), that's not a winning strategy either for most GM's. The only solution is to be 100% RIGHT for the first time in a while and bring in one more big bat (and relying on that bat to be Justin Morneau is something only Sox diehards can do, where hope springs eternal) and take on that contract through 2017. The James Shields move has almost forced it in this direction already.

Or, to put it another way, which mid-market teams (payroll #12-18) have successfully risen up to become consistent playoff contenders without building primarily through the draft and Latin America? That have experienced sustained success by buying second and third tier free agents so astutely (success rate of 60-80%), as well as "winning" 60% or more of their trades...and that weren't willing to go through a prolonged period of rebuilding/Top 10 draft picks, etc.???

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:14 PM) I wouldn't call the second half of 2013-14 a rebuild. That time period is too truncated for an actual rebuild. Not only that, they didn't really focus on long term prospect development. They brought in guys who can contribute to the MLB roster immediately, with exception of a few pitchers and Matt Davidson-- who they intended on bringing up right away, but he just could not hit the ball. If they maintained the course of direction heading into 2015 and traded Alexei Ramirez when his value was at its peak, while maintaining the 2nd and 3rd round draft picks for 2015--I'd say OVERALL, the organization would be in a much better shape. The fact of the matter is, they went for it in 2015 and failed and the farm system once again took a back seat, which we are very much noticing this year with the lack of position player depth to help alleviate positional player injuries. Since this is year 2 of KW's phantom 3 year window, I really do not foresee them trading away veterans for an influx of youth. However, doing so may actually accelerate the rebuild that could have been if they stayed on that 2013-14 course of action. For instance, lets say they keep: Sale, Rodon, Eaton, Anderson and Abreu but decided to trade off veterans like: Quintana, Robertson, Melky and Frazier-- hello youth influx! A Quintana trade alone can bring in multiple position players with high level talent. We are talking a team's #1 prospect AND their #6-10 prospect. Robertson, Melky and Frazier would be very attractive pieces to a contending team and can also bring in some team's top 10 prospects as well. Selling high on players is something KW or Hahn rarely does. It something that can rock the foundation of an organization-- perhaps it is something this stale playoff-less organization needs to consider this deadline. It is either that OR another year watching October baseball from their couches coming up with new ways to 'retool' the same roster for 2017. (sigh) See Humber, Crain, Floyd, Crede, Jenks, Alexei, etc. (hold on too long, not selling) We can't also say "stay the course" without seriously considering how fragile the whole thing is...we haven't built up pitching depth like the Mets or Indians that we could have Sale OR Q or even Rodon go down to a significant injury without completely junking the WHOLE plan for 1 to 1 1/2 years (if not longer if they didn't recover from surgery as well as expected, or had a shoulder/labrum injury like Danks). If you look at 2004-05 cycle, we brought in Garcia/Contreras (who turned out to be Two Top 25-35 pitchers in the league during that time before injuries), an effective closer for half a season in Hermanson (not to mention Takatsu to hold down the fort), a quality complementary piece in Iguchi, two key cogs in both Dye and AJ (Dye due to injury, AJ due to rep hit he took in SF), Bobby Jenks via waiver claim...the season before that, Carl Everett, etc. Then, Pods and Vizcaino. So, 1) we don't have the talent in our minor league system to bring in the equivalent of another Garcia trade without trading away significant major league talent, and 2) we haven't brought that much collective talent onto the major league roster since Floyd/Danks/Alexei/Quentin/Beckham/Viciedo in the 2007/08 cycle. Look at that list again though....a #1 and #2 starting pitcher, three closers, four LEGIT starting position players close to their primes, and even spare parts like El Duque and Vizcaino. Not to mention "off the radar" moves like Cliff Politte breaking their way, and Cotts becoming a dominant reliever for a season. Could any GM in history replicate that rebuilding on the fly approach today, with the talent and resources the White Sox currently have? It screams fluke/anomaly/luck, especially AJ and Dye both being available as they were (for diff reasons), as well as Jenks and then Contreras almost miraculously becoming the best pitcher in baseball for four plus months. Instead, in the recent years, we've gotten almost all busts in free agency (where we've been overpaying to boot), mostly bad trades or talent identification (Flowers, Davidson, Avi, Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart, etc.), lots of poor drafts (other than Sale)....journeymen AAA guys or waiver claims like DeAza (who was "pretty good" for a couple of years) and more recently Gillaspie that produce over stretches but aren't suited to full-time play....and then all the dumpster diving over the last 3-4 years due to limited budgets. We've almost completely missed out in Latin America (see Cubs/Rangers/Indians' rosters) and we haven't done much work in Japan/Korea at all (see recent influx of Korean players). All that adds up to being a "better mediocre team" but still stuck in the middle.

It's nice to know they're not intent on rushing Collins like it appears they're read to do with some of the pitchers (as relievers). The main problem is that 2017 is setting up as their final "all in" year...and the market for catching is looking pretty bleak for the moment, so we're back to "band aid/dumpster diving" solutions again. Nothing we can do about it, but it would be awesome to have him for the second half of 2017...and maybe that still happens. It would be like pulling off a trade, just like injecting Tim Anderson into the line-up has been this year. Looking at the future, you have a core of Anderson, Abreu, Eaton and Collins. But that still leaves five potential holes for 2018 in LF, CF, 3B, 2B (that's easier to imagine Saladino/Sanchez filling) and DH. I also don't realistically think Saladino can play 3rd, Sanchez 2B and still have enough power (been there, done that)...but somehow we need to come up with at least two more power bats (corner outfield/DH/another infielder at either 2B/3B with pop). Hard to project Engel/Trey/May as future starters right now. At any rate, getting a 750-800 OPS out of Collins will help a lot. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, Hahn finds one big bat in July/August this year...but this has to be the biggest concern for Sox fans when they look at 2017, 2018 and on into the future. Doesn't even have to be LH power (shout out to Lillian), but just any legit power/OBP combo.

They're not going to trade Betts and Moncada for Q. That's CRAZY talk.

If the asking price is Moncada, the Red Sox are going to fall back to their secondary packages that start with Benitendi...let's say, someone like Rich Hill (who was Boston property not so long ago) or Sonny Gray. With Gray's ERA still hovering above 5, Beane would be better off holding onto him unless he's totally bowled over with an offer. Everything not nailed down in the starting rotation for Tampa Bay (meaning all the starters other than Archer) are on the market as well. The Padres might choose to build around Drew Pomeranz or leverage him for a huge return this year, assuming he won't continue to overperform like this. Likewise, anyone you want in the Twins' rotation is available for the right price as well...Santana being the most attractive target. Teheran and Vizcaino from the Braves. Thankfully there are other suitors for Q, such as the Rangers and Dodgers that have the pieces to possibly make some sense. Or the Cubs, although that's a one in a million likelihood of happening.

The Indians are 3-6 in their last 9. Not sure if that exactly constitutes a free fall. Brantley's starting his minor league rehab assignment within the next 24-48 hours.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...y.html#comments Story on Moncada and Benitendi....who, if he were on the Sox, would turn into Jeremy Reed