caulfield12

I'll quote greg/al davis... Just win, baby! (Won't argue the Royals are better than us quite yet, however). Managers who do nothing are better than micromanagers like LaRussa, Scioscia and Maddon!!!

And the Indians are red hot now, just like we were... 5-0, about to sweep the Reds, who were the hottest team in baseball coming into that series.

Gallagher: Watermelons : Greg: Swept at home by Cubs We'd be 1/2 game out of last in the AL East. In the AL Central, the Royals could be 3 1/2 games out after tonight's action.

666 minor league OPS. Escobar won't hit, and SS is his best defensive position by far. It's like playing Vizquel there, but I would give Omar the slight advantage defensively because of his experience and savvy. Speaking of interesting line-ups today, the Indians are starting Jose Lopez at 2B so they can keep Chisenhall in the line-up. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:18 AM) Are you freaking kidding me? Their owner is gonna die in a few years and he wants a championship so bad that he is willing to spend as much money as possible to finally get that ring. How is that anything like the Cardinals? It is way more like the Sam Zell Cubs. I should have said the 1980's and early 90's Cardinals/Royals (when Kauffman was spending and fans loved their team and owner). The Cards have become more corporate and bottom line oriented, although not quite the Royals' David Glass/Wal-Mart model. And it helped to have McGwire bridge to Pujols... Those franchises have superstars, or had them at least (George Brett, for example). And paid them handsomely. Same as the Tigers of today. Then again, the Brewers lost Fielder and Sabathia...but look at where that franchise was 20 years ago, compared to today. You can say it happened simply because of Selig's influence and the new stadium, but there have been other factors at play, such as their tremendous farm system.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:23 AM) Their average attendance has increased from 21,290 to 22,647, WOW! They have had 3 night games this month with under 20k in attendance. They are on pace to win 74 games, they haven't won more than 75 since 2003. When you consider how many games they lost in a row at home, it was historical. It was like our 4-18 stretch in April/May of 2011 that for all intents and purposes wiped out our season and attendance for the remainder of the year. To weather that storm in the beginning of the season and still be outdrawing the White Sox handily when they're the smallest market in baseball (fanbase and media rights), they've shown some strong resiliency. Keep in mind, the White Sox had been in first place for over 3 weeks before last night. Look at the Royals' attendance in that first half of 2003, you'll see a HUGE effect just that season. Or whenever Zach Greinke was pitching for them. Do we even have an appreciable blip up for Chris Sale starts? And games won doesn't matter so much in our division as taking the division. You could conceivably have an 84-85-86-87 win team it this year. Probably not, as we said the same last year and Tigers just took off and crushed everyone down the stretch run, but it's possible this year again.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:14 AM) The Tigers are seemingly in a position of regularly losing money on big contracts because they have an independently wealthy owner willing to do that. And now they have 3 DH's as a consequence. And Illitch is getting closer and closer to the end, so he doesn't care, he wants a title. Despite how badly the plan has worked out on the field so far, talent almost always trumps everything else...at least in a division like ours, except for the anomaly of the White Sox/Tigers vs. the Twins from 2001-2010 with the exceptions of 2005/2006 (although the Twins did win the AL Central) and 2008.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 01:08 AM) Well, the Marlins will be trying to trade him either this offseason or next year, so it's at least an option if we want to light money on fire. You mean if Loria wants to take a short-term loss by subsidizing the deal (ala Javy or Contreras) or they want to risk greater losses on the back end. They will be the ones burning one safehouse (Fast Five movie analogy) in order to prevent a total loss in the end. How many MLB teams would pick up that Buehrle contract if it was made available, ala Rios in 2009?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:06 AM) GO ROYALS!!!! That's instructive, at least. Despite them being the worst team in the majors at home, their many offseasons of hype, high draft choices and farm system prospect features had the fans buying in more than ever before this past offseason. They're outdrawing us by 2,000 fans despite how badly they started out of the gate. Last year, they would have been dead in the water. This year, they're right in it and have a great chance to make a run. Fans in Kansas City are so similar to White Sox fans in being fair weather fans, but they do have a beautiful ballpark and reasonably priced parking/tickets/concessions, so that's another factor. But of all the teams in MLB, our fanbase is the most like Royals, Indians and Reds fans. They simply won't support bad or average teams. And kudos go to the Tigers and Brewers for changing the operating models of those franchises and modeling themselves as much as possible after the Cardinals.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 05:54 AM) Yeah, and that's really accurate, considering how many of our young arms are pitching in the MLB right now. Those are almost exclusively bullpen arms. Our two biggest trades, Stewart and Molina, are showing minimal or no return (so far). What quality starting pitcher, other than Sale, have we produced? (I think it's a bit TOO early to crow about Quintana long-term, many of us were congratulating KW on Humber last year and penciling him into 2013-14-15 rotations at a low cost and that's not looking so good right now). This all goes back to the riverboat gambling nature of KW giving up too quickly on Hudson and then adding on to the waste by throwing money at Manny Ramirez.

But it's back to the same old issues. Instead of saying we're 27th in attendance, they should be focusing on the fact that we're probably 12th-15th in revenue... Revenue generated >>> Tickets sold It's like comparing movie box office, attendance, etc., from 10 or 20 years ago to today. Of course, you have to take into consideration inflation, the affect of the internet and pirating, IMAX, 3D, marketing/production costs. In our business/operating model, tickets sold and revenues generated from those tickets only account for 20-25% of the bottom line these days. They have numerous and diverse revenue streams that create dollars in other ways. 1) If you want fans to believe in a ballclub, it generally needs to be roughly 10 games or higher than .500 at the All-Star Break....evidence currently suggests we're simply returning to the mean of 5 games above or 5 games below .500, which has been our band range all season long, the worst was 4 games under and best was 8 games over. 2) For the 1,000th time, White Sox baseball is competing with more and more options than ever before in this economy. $100 for one person to attend versus the convenience of watching from home, it's a no brainer for the majority of cash-strapped families out there. The fact of the matter is that the White Sox (as greg likes to point out) have been anything from average to terrible at home over the 2009-2012 stretch. And at least SOME of that has to be attendance related. Look at the attendance from 2005/06/08 when the team was playing its best, it was supported by at least 25-30K fans per game and quite often 30,000+. Coincidence? I think not. In the middle of their "dynamic pricing/maximizing revenue" focus, they've forgotten that perception is 90% of reality. Fans tune in game after game to see empty stands, it doesn't seem like the kind of place to go to have fun. People follow trends, bandwagons, what's popular. They have to increase the supply of fans or stimulate the demand or both.... 3) Along with not playing well at home, the feeling around the ballpark and organization is largely a negative one...and this impacts every team that comes to play at USCF, in the sense that those players would much rather play in front of packed houses and appreciative fans, like they currently have in cities like St. Louis or Detroit. Call it the Carlos Beltran Won't Go to Cleveland Death Spiral Effect. The Indians have actually done a very good job (or great job) of building from their farm system, clearly they USED to have one of the best fanbases in all of sports, but it has been decimated by the economy and two almost complete rebuilds and payroll slashings. They can't generate the revenue from ticket prices OR media, so they have to roll the dice on signing young players to extensions early and cancelling out a year or two of free agency. In the end, at least it SEEMS to fans like they have a plan, whether the fans like it or not, a strategic vision of how they're getting back to competitiveness is being presented to them. And the Indians have responded by playing great at home for most of last year and at least decently this year, compared to the Sox. Whereas our plan is the Mississippi Riverboat Gambler approach. Drafting Hawkins and Barnum was the first time it seemed they made a concerted effort to bring young impact bats into an organization that plays 50% of their games in one of the most homer friendly parks in baseball. Thanks to Ozzie, our roster has been set back a couple of years by his stubborness of wanting to play NL style ball in a band box.

Zach=Jeff Marquez Squared or Cubed

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,2642783.column The inevitable "maybe we should bring Mark Buehrle back" column by Phil Rogers.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 01:52 PM) Real mature response. I happen to be insanely mad at losing two AT HOME to the Cubs. It's like we want to be .500 against them this year after sweeping them the first time. Zach Stewart was a gimme. Now we can't hit ... against the Cubs?? WTF. We just ran over teams like a freight train in that 14-2 stretch, and the Indians' announcers just said...well, there's nothing you can do to stop it, just be glad it's only 3 games and wait for the next time you face them. As soon as we lost those two games in LA, the game where we couldn't get a runner across against Lynn, the bad news about Danks....it was the reverse of the lift the team experienced when Sale went back to the rotation. If they do get swept by the Cubs, at home, there's going to be a lot of "soul searching" about the direction of this club and whether the costs of adding pieces to try to compete the next 6-8 weeks without Danks is worth it...as well as the idea that you'll be tempted to push him back to replace Sale when he reaches his innings' limit.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 01:53 PM) Could you imagine how much better the Rays would be if they had Ozzie as manager letting them do whatever the f*** they wanted, instead of Joe Maddon who is always making those little tweaks? I simply love that the Sox got anything at all for that windbag piece of s***. I was listening to Tim Belcher, who's now a special assistant with the Indians. He was going on about how he hated those shifts because of the 3B having to take the throw and act as a SS ("nothing good can come out of that"), but he also was quick to mention Maddon leads the AL in shifts and that it has proven very effective for them.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 01:19 PM) I think there was more of a positive upside going into 2005. People still like Ozzie, they only fan favorite they lost was Maggs. They were also playing solid baseball. The economy is worse. Higher unemployment, lower consumer confidence, gas prices all seem to have an effect. With higher ticket prices I would imagine a family would put that amount towards the Bears or Bulls. Valentin and El Caballo say "hi!" In all seriousness, along with 2005/06, I think the more interesting comparison attendance-wise is 2008. That was coming out of the disaster of 2007, so there are a lot of similarities with 2011. First four months of 2008, when the Sox were in first place for most of that time: 15-20K=3 games 20-25K=8 games 25-30K=19 games 30-35K=9 games 35+=12 games An early Yankees series "only" averaged high 20's, but all the Cubs' home games were over 39000. The Saturday games in that year drew really well, no matter who the opponent was... In general, there's been a more than 5000 fan falloff from that time, coming off a bad 72-90.

QUOTE (Andrew @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 12:19 PM) What is the point of this? It's an after game thread. And only Cubs fans think attendance justifies sucking. This team excels on the road (so far), encourage that. I don't even understand why you would try to rile him up...what the f*** is that going to do? Sox aren't going to trade a .5 game out, as long as they stay close to ASB, they shouldn't, the division is weak.... Really - Do you think an extra 10K fans are going to show up at the next homestand or something cuz you gave the "biz-naz" to Gregg? Who cares - relax. This division is absolute SHHHHIIIITTTTT and I'm amazed the Sox are even above .500! Enjoy it, you dummies! I'm not sure what to make of this post. I think they might turn up at Applebee's for baby back ribs and to discuss baseball with Ozzie....and maybe have some chicken wings with honey mustard dipping sauce.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:56 AM) Exactly! You get a total "rebuild" here and you are looking at 10,000 fans a game. You think 20,000 to 25,000 a night is bad. You just wait til the Sox go total rebuild. Sox just can't shake being team dysfunction. This home record is f***ing ridiculous. Winning nine and immediately going in the tank is incomprehensible, but it is the White Sox over and over again. Trading Konerko, BTW is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. For what??? Three prospects? What prospects do you want and think you can get? Greg, if you had Konerko, AJ and Buehrle along with our AAA/AA roster, what would the attendance be per game?

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:49 AM) Here's a thought...would we be better off with Flowers starting behind the plate or Hudson at 3rd? I think AJ could be a good trade piece. The Pirates have Alvarez and Casey Mcgee (who's been real good lately) over at 3rd, and the .222 hitting Rod Berajas behind the plate. Casey Michael McGehee has about a 700 OPS in the worst division in baseball, other than our own. That's fine, in and of itself, except that he's almost exclusively played 1B this year. Last season, he had a .942 fielding percentage at 3B. I just think you trade away AJ and make Flowers the full-time catcher, you're sending a message to his teammates that you're surrendering in a way. Flowers hits the ball hard, when he hits it, but that's not nearly often enough. His defense has been good, but that's not a clear enough upgrade to make that move from my standpoint. Maybe at some point KW will think he does need to completely shake up the team and trade away one of the veterans. In that sense, AJ would make perfect sense. But it could just as easily backfire completely.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:44 AM) Kenny will add before he dumps. This is a guy who has had opportunity to trade off players. The next time you will see a fire sale will involve a new GM and possibly a new ownership. It Will always want to have something to keep some season ticket holders to renew. Then it's going to have to be Sale and Viciedo. And the SUPER TOUGH decision about what to do with Konerko, when it comes down to it...you can make VERY compelling arguments both ways, and there's no chance with most to have that discussion without letting emotions enter into it.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:36 AM) Yes it would, the only untouchable on the roster would be Sale. Dodgers would have to be very interested in Konerko and Peavy, as they have the money to spend. 1. Sale 2. Viciedo (unless you got bowled over with an offer) 3. DeAza (because it's so hard to find someone so cheaply who can do everything he does) 4. Jones/Reed (pick the one you think ends up the best closer and hold onto him, possibly deal the other) 5. Mitchell Those are the players I would most like to keep going forward.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:14 AM) That's true. When it bothers me too much, I just remember what my wife once told me when I was a little too consumed by the game... Its just a bunch of uneducated men in silly costumes, running around in dirt, trying to hit a ball with a stick. I'm assuming your wife is not Japanese, Korean, Dominican, Venezuelan or Puerto Rican, lol.

The two Dodgers games made me a lot angrier...or the Cardinals game with Peavy going against Lynn when Konerko grounded into the DP to end it and we couldn't convert any of our scoring chances. This was just more of a sense of resignation setting in after the botched bases loaded situation and then turning around and handing them two runs the next half inning.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:02 AM) They may have just lost Valverde for a good chunk of time, but that probably helps them. They still have Dotel and Benoit. However, I think Leyland eventually will go with Villarreal. He's got almost Zumaya-like stuff.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 10:59 AM) Yes, we are now going to trade Jake in a month, because we will be so many games behind the vaunted Indians and Tigers. The problem is that the Tigers are going to fix their problems because they have all the money in the world to do so. We don't, at least we keep hearing that. The odds still are they run away with this division before all is said and done.