caulfield12

Can I practice the French version, naivete`, instead? BTW, where has Victory been lurking these days? Haven't seen him posting much. Maybe he's spying on the spies spying on KW's spies. In the end, can we envision a new Marty-directed Redford/Pitt/DeNiro/Bourne/CIA movie rewrite in the future, incorporating these recent White Sox spying allegations as a key subplot. If all else fails, let's just call everyone rats, spies and squealers. That will make the organization more functional and synergistic, surely.

Maybe he's trying to find winter ball homes for both of his sons? Of course, with the pressure that is placed on those teams to win right away (and with the plethora of major league players mixed in), they certainly won't last very long. Once again, we get another reference to Iguchi and 2005, which was such a fluke thing because KW merely watched video of him from Japan, not ever having personally scouted him.

Here's the question Marty. Look at the Red Sox. How is it possible that a team with so much intense media coverage could have all those things going on around the team and none of it was revealed until after the season? Listen to the hilarious John Henry interviews when he got so angry with the "one-sidedness" and "despicableness" of the Boston news media that he went in to complain, only to give one of the most befuddled interviews in talk radio history. The same interview in which he threw one of the biggest FA signings in history, Carl Crawford, completely under the bus. At least Reinsdorf hasn't done anything like that publicly with Dunn and Rios, even though he certainly has a right to as an owner who's getting zero ROI from those guys...to the point where they're crippling the rest of the team. At least the White Sox organization isn't dumping dirt directly on their former manager....like "insider sources" are by telling about Francona's distractions with marriage problems and painkiller use. Apparently it was okay for the Guillens to dump all over Bobby Jenks though, right? So if you have a $150-175 million payroll like the Red Sox do every year, don't you have a responsibility to know what's going on, somehow? I'm sure the players (Dustin Pedroia covered for the guys by claiming he had no idea what was going on) knew it...but maybe if someone got in Beckett's or Lackey's face the first or second week of September, they could easily have salvaged their season...Tito's job, Epstein's job. I'm more proud of Don Cooper sticking it out with the White Sox and wanting to be a part of the turnaround than Ozzie jumping ship and giving up on his players...if you want to call him a whistleblower, whatever....but I have respect for competent non-corrupt policemen, corporate executives, anyone who's willing to stand up and try to protect the integrity of an institution. That whole "just following orders" and keeping the code of silence really hasn't worked well in history. It just gets used an excuse for expiating the behavior of those who've crossed the line. And Ozzie clearly crossed the line between caring more about his team/organization than himself and his own situation the last 2 seasons. Was Cooper looking out for himself and his family in the process? Sure. But it's not like he couldn't get another job in baseball tomorrow. If you want to spend the next couple of seasons accusing Ventura of being a spy, that's your right...but wouldn't Robin have more incentive to do that with KW (since he clearly couldn't get another job as easily as Cooper)? Still, Robin Ventura's set for life financially....what reason would he possibly have to manage the White Sox if his main directive was to be a spy, with KW as the "JD Edgar Hoover in the skybox" looming above...? Doesn't really make any sense. Was there any pitcher on that staff who would rather have seen Don Cooper than Ozzie go? I don't think so.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 18, 2011 -> 01:04 AM) Couple things. 1.) I wish I could go on a 16-day vacation right now. Ah to be rich like Ozzie. 2.) Coop may be a rat. Should get interesting to see if anybody else supports Ozzie on this. Nobody likes a suck up rat and in Ozzie's opinion Coop is a rat. Hmmmm. That last quote from Ozzie may be the best quote in sports history. Are you really saying that if worked for the same company for 26 or 28 years (something like that) as Don Cooper has with the White Sox (under at least two "bosses" or managers at the big league level in Manuel and Guillen) that you would give all your allegiance to a single boss who was appointed over you instead of to the CEO or organization itself? What if you felt that the patently-obvious conflict between your two immediate bosses was causing conflict in the organization that you have grown to love and certainly feel loyalty to, enough to forgo the Yankees' opportunity? Why does Cooper owe more to Guillen than he does Williams and specifically JR? It's not like Ozzie brought him from the unemployment line into the job. Heck, even Ozzie admitted he was a great coach. Greg, you're honestly going to say you would have quit the White Sox (falling on his own sword, so to speak) because it was becoming clear that Ozzie, Cora and Walker certainly wouldn't be returning to Chicago? Why should Cooper do that, when his salary isn't nearly what Ozzie's making? I'm sure he has made a very decent amount of money the last decade, and some would argue that they would be "set for life" even with it, but it would have been silly for Cooper to leave, just to make a point? Wouldn't you consider him a traitor if he took a pitching coach job with the Royals or Indians and they ended up beating up the White Sox in 2012 and beyond? The White Sox front office isn't the mafia or Playboy Club or Good Fellas...Cooper obviously felt his first loyalty was to the Sox organization, not Ozzie Guillen. Why isn't that clear? Why does Cooper have to suck up to the GM or owner when the White Sox lead the majors in quality starts since the beginning of the 2003 season?

The Tigers already have Jacob Turner. It's doubtful they would spend the type of money it's going to take to beat out the Red Sox and Yankees for Wilson.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 10, 2011 -> 10:42 PM) Sorry spider, I had a mind freeze on Frasor. I meant Humber. Rotation: Humber, Sale, Axelrod, Stewart and one of Danks/Floyd. If we don't resign Buehrle and trade one of Danks/Floyd and Quentin as many are saying we are gonna do, there's no reason to keep guys like Paulie, AJ, Thornton around. I don't know why the Sox feel they have to rebuild. Do the Yankees ever rebuild? Keep the payroll where it is and tinker some more and try to win. The Cell is going to be a morgue from mid May on if we "rebuild." Now, people might go to the games if they were minor league prices. But nobody's gonna pay to see the Sox win 65 games. You mean nobody's going to go to ANY games after Opening Day except for the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox and select interleague match-ups in the summertime.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 9, 2011 -> 11:22 PM) I have really warmed up to this hiring. Ventura is an incredible leader and if he's anything like he was as a player, the team will perform well next year. Hopefully he does because this hasn't been an AL team since 2006. 2008, when Quentin and Ramirez were big-time threats, they at least resembled an offensive force for most of that season.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 9, 2011 -> 11:23 PM) I think you are very, very wrong and Nolan is going to target much bigger fish than still-streaky Edwin Jackson. And there's absolutely no reason for a team with a farm system that full of talent to target someone else's 4 or 5, especially when they would have to pay him. Secondly, IIRC the first Danks deal was something Jon Daniels was against but the old ownership group pushed for. There's no reason to believe that Danks, from Round Rock, wouldn't love playing for his home team at a nice price. I see Texas as actually the perfect match. And I think you're also waaaaaaaay the hell off on Danks. He's not Cliff Lee, but Cliff Lee lite? If that means a strong #3 then he sure the f*** is (I would fully argue that there is no such thing as a prototypical #2 starter). He's 26, lefty, and very good. Last year may actually make him more obtainable for other teams, being that his DL stint took him away from the 200IP mark which would have put him way the hell up there as far as pricetag. Of course his ERA was much higher than usual, but the track record is there, the walk rate was a career low, the K rate is over 7 and his best since 2008, the K/BB ratio is by far a career best, and his HR rate is right around his career average. His hit rate was high this year, but I don't think that is going to deter anyone. John Danks is a very good young left-handed starting pitcher and he is going to get paid like a very good young left-handed starting pitcher. If we're not going to be the ones to pay him then we need to trade him, and the return needs to be the type of return that you get from a very good young left-handed pitcher, i.e. not some junk #4 starters or position players who can't hit, and definitely no relievers unless they are ready right now and have absolutely electric stuff, and the balls/makeup to mostly throw it for strikes. Danks and Floyd have been both very streaky for the past 3 seasons. If KW could have gotten a Michael Morse/Reed/Olivo-type haul for Danks in July, there's absolutely no way he wouldn't have made that trade. I can't imagine with 2-3 less months of team control why he'd go up in value...due to the W/L record, ERA, DL stint, etc. Sure, you're probably doubling or tripling the number of teams in the market for Danks, but you're still extremely limited by that $75-90/5 year baseline as his expected contract. Maybe 5 and no more than 7 teams could afford that deal.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 9, 2011 -> 06:46 PM) Disagree. Garcia was unquestionably not a frontline starter at that time. He was a #3 having a very good season and one who had true ace potential, but nowhere near a true ace if that's what you're implying with "frontline starter." Furthermore, Garcia was a righty who had had a bit of an injury history. The Garcia situation was seen as a bit of an overpayment by the Sox, but that was also during the trade deadline with fewer bidders, so being that Danks would be for a full season, and presumably with a pool of 15-20 teams who think they will be contenders in December at the meetings as opposed to a handful of bidders near the deadline, and being that Danks is also a lefty and not quite the extension concern Garcia would have been, in total, I think that Garcia haul would be at least be a pretty fair gauge of Danks' worth. Also, no need for any kind of extension window here. The 2012 season will be the extension window. The main teams for the Sox to target would be Texas (Ryan possibly losing CJ Wilson after losing Cliff Lee will have him wanting to bring the hometown kid back) and the Yankees, who are undoubtedly going to be interested and also unfazed by any of Danks' extension demands. Daniels wouldn't do that, simply because there's way too big of a risk he would make 2 stupid moves with Danks. Trading him in the first place, then overpaying him to return. Danks isn't even Cliff Lee-Lite, not based on last season. They have younger starters in Holland and Ogando, they're not going to be desperate to overpay for Danks when they can go after a typical 4th/5th guy or even someone like Edwin Jackson who won't cost them anything in talent surrendered.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Oct 9, 2011 -> 09:08 PM) Did anyone see this? Please tell me this was a joke: Konerko Considered for Player/Manager I thought they would also give consideration to Omar Vizquel as a player/manager as well, but apparently he's too loyal to Ozzie to stick around. It would have been interesting. Like Alomar Jr., he has a lot of the same qualities you look for in a coach/manager. As far as Konerko being able to push the likes of Dunn and Rios, forget it. Might as well name Jim Thome manager just to spite Ozzie...would have been about the same effect. The White Sox's stunning hiring of Robin Ventura to replace Ozzie Guillen as manager Thursday came as a result of board chairman Jerry Reinsdorf instructing his general manager, Kenny Williams, "to think outside the box on this one - no retreads." And how would Alomar Jr. or Dave Martinez been considered retreads?

Danks isn't worth Freddy Garcia in 2004. He would only come close to approximating that value were he willing to sign the same type of favorable/hometown discount contract (obviously not with the Rangers) that Freddy signed to avoid going on the open market, locking him up for 2013/2014 and possibly 2015 seasons. But his year was erratic at best. He's worth a great deal, but obviously not as much as he would have been after 2008 or 2009. Garcia was unquestionably a frontline starter at that point in time. There are lots of question marks about Danks now. Very good left-handed starter, a #3 in many rotations? Sure. But ace, no way.

REAL STEEL is a heckuva movie....a lot better than I expected going in. Between Moneyball, The Blindside and Dolphin Tale, lots of underdog movies these days are making it big.

QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 8, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) The best athlete isn't always the best coach. See Ted Williams.

QUOTE (soxfan-kwman @ Oct 8, 2011 -> 11:44 PM) I like the hire. Robin is a true student of the game. I'm sure it was just a matter of getting Robin to commit to coming back to the game full time. He'll help our hitters next year regardless of who we hire as hitting coach. Plus, we have Coop for our pitching staff. Assistant coaches, I would like Harold as bench coach & bring back Rock Raines. That or have Buddy Bell as bench coach. Third base coach, Lance Johnson?.. Joe Crede as hitting coach. Any thoughts? I don't think EVERY single coach on our staff should or has to have White Sox ties. From everything I've read, Rock Raines and Razor Shines burned a lot of bridges and won't be welcomed back with open arms. Lance Johnson would be a good base-running coach, although his "on point" style might not exactly be replicable. Presumably, Baines would return to 1B coaching duties. Based on his health, I would doubt Crede would feel well enough to be around the game and standing up so much for 8-9 months a year. Maybe a spring training "advisor" like Ventura has been in the past. That still leaves 3B, bench coach and hitting coach. Probably at least 2 of those guys will come from outside the organization (HOPEFULLY).

Verlander threw 82 pitches. Pretty risky to bring him back on only 3 day's rest, but they might have no choice if they're down 3-0 or most likely 2-1. How many times has he gone on only 3 days in his career?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 8, 2011 -> 10:39 PM) Unless Ventura is some kind of baseball guru/genius and he doesn't strike me that way, how in the hell will he know how to handle a pitching staff and know who to bring in and all that? If the Sox are truly thinking outside the box, I hope they give Coop the authority to make all the pitching moves. Coop should revolutionaize the position of pitching coach and have the authority to make ALL the pitching calls including in-game decisions. Let Ventura make out the lineups and decide when to hit and run and steal. I wonder how closely he's followed other teams. You simply can't have two managers. I'm sure Cooper will provide a tremendous amount of input, especially in spring training and the first half of the season, but Robin will learn quickly enough. Cue Dick Allen response that Greg Walker should have been able to make out the line-ups and decide on pinch-hitters.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...in-trouble.html http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...in-ventura.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,4656874.story McLaren and Lachemann are rumored... http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,4477232.story

QUOTE (Cali @ Oct 8, 2011 -> 02:41 PM) I've calmed down a bit, but I plan on having a s***-fit once it's announced who hired Martinez (probably the Red Sox, ugh) Don't rule out DeMarlo Hale, but, in a town like Boston....well, we shall see if they have the cojones to hire an African-American manager. In the 70's or 80's, it would have been unthinkable. That team was always famous for having the fewest black players of any team in the majors. I remember Ellis Burks having some comments about this from his playing days there.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8094684-419...ding-phase.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/28/o...e=Ozzie_Guillen 30 best Ozzie Guillen tweets

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:44 PM) They've been paper tigers since the century. Since Kenny wanted to be demoted, maybe he will quit in a few years. I have hopes Al Davis gives him a call. I don't think even with Geritol, V-8, Viagra and Cialis combined into a daily 3X-a-day cocktail that Al Davis could be termed "Oakland Tough" these days.

QUOTE (daggins @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 08:59 PM) Lets not get histrionic. I think he is just saying Robin doesn't have the coaching background to build "trusted advisors". He might have some old players he respects but as far as people he knows he can work with in this setting, there aren't really any. It's a crapshoot anyways, lets all go get loaded. More fun that way - look at the Brewers. Fair enough...just thought he was being a bit too cynical before the guy's even gone through a spring training (another weakness for the Guillen regime, which was fundamentals/execution/bunting/throwing to the correct bases, etc., it seemed Ozzie never cared at all about winning or losing in ST and it seemed over time to have an effect on how we started in April). I guess he'll (Robin) have to earn our faith over time. Some will take it on faith, and some will be doubting Thomases. Neither stance is empirically right or wrong, obviously. At this point, I give him (Ventura) credit for being loyal to JR and the Sox family and stepping into the breach. You know he'll do the job to the best of his ability, and always remain dignified and professional. And there will always be a second-guessing crowd you will use it as one more nail in KW's (and by extension, JR's) coffin.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 08:52 PM) Worse shape than 2001? You mean that great team that didn't win a damn thing. We're not in nearly as bad of shape as you make it out to be. We're relatively young and still have strong pitching. For a team that has such an awful system we'll have a bunch of contributions from players that spent time in said system. I'm not a fan of where we're at, but it's nowhere near as dire as this site makes it out to be. In fact, if a couple things go our way next year, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Sox overtake the Tigers. They're good but hardly a Juggernaut. Now I understand wju that hyperbole thread was a sticky. BTW, I know its easy to forget but there is that thing we did a few years ago that nearly 90 years of Sox players and GM's failed to accomplish. However, if you subtract Buehrle AND Danks OR Floyd, that rotation goes from a strength to a definite weakness. Then Chris Sale simply HAS to quickly evolve into the next Randy Johnson...and not break down like Liriano somewhere in the process. As far as 2005 goes, the statute of limitations for the majority of the fanbase has already passed. Expectations have increased, and you can both blame and credit KW for that. Most of the posters here aren't expecting a competitive team before 2014. So, if they're not at least .500 in 2014, are you still going to cite 2005 as the reason to retain KW? Just curious. What has he done in the last 3 years to give Sox fans a reason for hope? I hope it's something more than Humber, Santos, Sale and Viciedo!!!

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 09:34 PM) The close trusted advisors he's worked with the last 5 years manage high school. So you're going to be like Greg backing Ozzie...in terms of now being stuck in the "firmly set in your belief in the unlikelihood of Ventura succeeding" camp for the next 2 seasons? UGH. The White Sox have done some HORRIBLE things since I've been following the team in the early 1980's. Despite all of these, I've never wavered in my "fandom" or questioned my choice of favorite team...nor drank myself into a stupor as a result of aforementioned decisions/moves. I hope you can start to look on the bright side and find a few things to be optimistic about (like the bench coach or new hitting coach) or it's going to be a LONG 2-3 years for all of us (picking on JR, pleading for him to sell the team or worse...KW...and eventually Robin).