caulfield12

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 10:15 AM) more BS. it's ok to stop being a sox fan if they lose 100 games? Okay. You're Brooks Boyer. Your main appeal to sell season tickets to White Sox fans is loyalty and responsibility/obligation to support the organization? That's not the way most professional sports franchises operate. Nobody said anything about not being a White Sox fan any longer. I could care less at this point if they trade Ramirez, Danks, Floyd, Thornton, Quentin, AJ and Konerko. I'll still cheer for them and follow the games wherever I am in the world, and post here. Did you organize all the season tickets holders together to raise $14 million in venture capital to pay Mark Buehrle for this season? If you really want to fight the majority of posters here, go right ahead, but you're not going to find many on your side as long as Kenny Williams is still around as the General Manager.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 10:10 AM) bulls*** to the bolded part. sox offer 1/2 price mondays, and plenty of other offers. the 2012 monday price is as low as $7. that's less than the cost of a beer at the park. if you're not an upper deck snob, you will find good deals to go to a game. as for parking, the united center has parking from $20-$35, and the bears have parking that STARTS at $35(if you're lucky to get it when they go on sale). so the sox selling parking at $23 is within the range of chicago sports. ALSO, the sox allow you to tailgate, something that cannot be said at the united center. When you have the 4th highest average ticket price in all of MLB, that's not exactly targeting middle class families. The majority of the tickets in the ballpark are quite expensive. Bleacher seats (which SHOULD be for middle class fans, and are in most stadiums) are way way out of whack with reality. And I've never understood the fixation with segregating the upper decks and lower decks so much...it's like being treated to steerage class on the Titanic. And baseball's still unique having a season 2X or 8-9-10X as long as the average basketball/football season in terms of home games.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 07:39 AM) Well you can't expect a pitcher a year removed from rehab for a major injury to be better that would just be silly. People never pitch better after strengthening thier shoulders. So there's no reason to expect him to better this year at all. I'm tired of people ripping a guy who had a major, unique injury to his throwing shoulder for trying to pitch. The guy worked his rear end off trying to help his team and he gets nothing but complaints. I know I've said it before but I would rather have a competitive guy like Peavy who refuses to give up as opposed to a guy like Mark Prior who rfuses to pitch because of soreness in his shoulder. I've never ripped on Peavy, really, ever. My only point is that I'm going to get tired of all the Peavy/Dunn/Rios/Beckham "comeback" stories. Because certainly we're not going to add much going forward outside of unproven young talent. And my other issue is Peavy now apparently saying he doesn't want to be part of a rebuilding effort when the 2009-2011 seasons he's had have contributed mightily to putting us in this mess where we can't retain one of our two franchise players. (Obviously, KW/Rios/Dunn are the other key part of that equation). I don't hate Peavy, though. And I wouldn't be shocked if he pitched as well as he has since he was with the Padres in 2007. Maybe a 3.6-3.75 ERA, optimistically.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 02:16 AM) Where is Mark Buehrle? I should have specified in a coaching/management/front office role... Buehrle definitely will not be doing that. Although I certainly wouldn't rule him coming back to a contending Sox team in 3-4 years, especially if the Marlins are willing to subidize part of the salary cost.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 03:58 PM) Ventura says Dunn will get more playing time in the field (its all over Twitter), including time in the OF. Again, another example of blatant disregard of advanced metrics, something we saw with Ozzie too (remember 75 pitch Peavy). Advanced statistics have a place in this game weather u were brought up with them or not, they are not just for mid twenties baseball bloggers. If you ignore them you will wind up playing a guy whose is -127.3 career defensive WAR player, the same guy who posted a staggering -37.3 def WAR season in 2010 for the Nats. Dude also owns a career -167 defensive runs above replacement figure (according to Baseball Info Solutions). Can some non archaic baseball thinker (of the media) please ask Robin if he is aware of things like this, even cares to look, and why he would play such an established poor defender in the field more. This isnt rocket science. It's simple, there's this theory out there (Dunn needs to be out on the field at 1B or in LF) that it's the best way to get his bat to come alive. It also provides some further smoke to the fire about the possibility/likelihood of Carlos Quentin being traded.

I have this strange feeling like it will be Ozzie Guillen. I'm going to give him 1 2/3rd's seasons in Miami. As long as JR is still alive, it's always going to be a possibility. But it will take a KW departure first for that to happen, obviously. Didn't feel like including Joey Cora on the list...Black Jack McDowell also came to mind, but I don't see it as a fit. Joel Skinner, maybe?

And, lest we forget, the pie throwing shenaningans of Toby Hall... He also had a difficult time getting AJ and Flowers to cooperate, although 80% of that has to be on Pierzynski's competitive streak. Javy? So he can "defuse tension" but he can't hold the players accountable for mistakes...except when they're bench players like Lillibridge and not his favorites like Pierre, Rios and Ramirez?

In the long run, Guillen thinks the switch will benefit Ramirez for a lot of reasons. "You're going to be more fresh,'' Guillen said. "You're not going to be doing cutoffs and relays. I think you're going to be stronger, you're going to be better, and it's going to help you out offensively and defensively. "If you get moved out of your position and [the team plays] Pablo Ozuna or myself [at shortstop], I'd be very mad. But when it's one of the best players in the game right now to help you to win some games ... well ... you should be happy. I don't expect him to be excited about it, but you should understand our point with what we want to do for the team.'' Few managers are better equipped to deal with the inevitable rocky moments than Guillen is. He's so candid and adept at using humor to defuse tense situations, he makes it hard for the tension to fester. Where some managers might be inclined to tap-dance around an issue, Ozzie is always going to charge in with combat boots and battle fatigues. At some point, if Ramirez sulks or loses focus, it will be Guillen's mandate to help him get his mind right. Jerry Crasnick/ESPN

The Marlins new manager, Ozzie Guillen, was Buehrle’s manager with the Chicago White Sox the last eight years. They are close friends, a factor that undoubtedly contributed to Buehrle’s decision. “I’m glad to have him because now I can see his kids grow up,” Guillen said. “It’s about pitching. … He made my life a little bit easier because pitching can drive you crazy and now we have one guy who can help us win.” yahoo.com/sports So the Marlins have offered 6 year and $100+ million to CJ Wilson...and the Angels are their main competion. And down to the Angels/Cardinales for Pujols apparently. While their bid for Pujols generated the biggest buzz, and rightfully so given his stature as perhaps the best baseball player in the world, the Marlins withdrew their offer Wednesday when it became apparent his heart remained with the St. Louis Cardinals. With Pujols out of the picture, the Marlins quickly turned their attention to upgrading the starting rotation, reaching agreement with Buehrle on a four-year, $58 million deal and taking aim on Wilson. “This kid is special,” said manager Ozzie Guillen, who was also Buehrle’s manager with the Chicago White Sox. “Very happy to have this kid. One of my favorite players.” Buehrle, 32, has spent his entire 12-year big-league career with the White Sox, compiling a 161-119 record and 3.83 ERA. Known for his durability and consistency, Buehrle has thrown at least 200 innings each of the past 11 seasons. He has also thrown a pair of no-hitters, including a perfect game in 2009. “He just wins,” said Larry Beinfest, Marlins president of baseball operations. “He’s got a world championship under his best (belt). One of the best fielding pitchers in baseball. Super competitive. He’s not throwing 95 mph, but he knows how to get people out.” Buehrle joins a rotation that already includes Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez, Ricky Nolasco and Chris Volstad. If Wilson accepts their offer, the Marlins will have solidified a rotation that was a weak point last season. The Angels have reportedly made a five-year deal to Wilson, a California native who has gone 31-15 since becoming a starter for the Texas Rangers two years ago. “We are certainly looking at other moves, there is no question about that,” Samson said. Guillen is ecstatic with the acquisitions. “We have what we want,” Guillen said. “Now, how about three more? You shoot for the moon, just in case.” All of the activity by the Marlins has generated excitement in South Florida. Samson said the team’s souvenir stores spread throughout the region sold out of dozens of replica Reyes jersey in a matter of hours Wednesday after his signing was formally announced. Samson said more jerseys were ordered. And Samson said ticket sales increased every day since Friday. “With the team we’re putting together, we expect there to be very few empty seats at this ballpark ever,” Samson said of the team’s new, 37,000-seat ballpark. “We want to deliver to Miami its first division winner ever and it’s third World Series.” Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/12/07/2536...l#ixzz1fvKDl2xA

QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:38 PM) I'm not upset we didn't re-sign him, but Opening Day will not be the same without him on the mound. You'd guess they would give it to Danks, but what are the odds that either Danks or Floyd will both still be around? Seeing Sale start would be the most exciting, but they probably wouldn't do that to him. Which leads me to the sneaking suspicion it will be Peavy...after a series of Scott Merkin puff pieces hyping his reinvigorated fastball and nastier breaking slider. Actually, based on the way he pitched for the majority of the season, Phil Humber is probably the most deserving over Danks/Floyd. Zach Stewart? Molina?

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:28 PM) Few years ago, we were in first place at the all star break and nobody showed up to the ballpark in the first half. Before the first half 26-5 run, we were a very average team...there was talk of dismantling/firesale for 2-3 weeks before that happened, if you remember correctly. Most Sox fans, despite the excitement, felt (with the exception of the Braves' series) that those wins were against mostly hapless NL East competition and the lousy Cubs. And we promptly got mowed down by the Twins in two key series coming out of the break as well. As quickly as we built that lead, Jenks and Thornton just as abruptly and heartbreakingly choked it away. And Jim Thome was right there in the middle, inflicting the killer blow (thanks to Ozzie's brainchild, the dreaded Kotsay/Jones platoon).

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:21 PM) People who only just show up when the team is doing great, is not a real fan IMO.. I am proud to be a Sox fan if we win or lose 100 games.. Then you are a Cubs' fan, lol. This circular argument always goes around in the same directions. I will never refuse to go to a Sox game or pay for tickets when I have have the opportunity, but I don't live in Chicago so it's a lot harder. 2008 was primarily a result of the disaster known as 2007. Fans were skeptical after the end of 2006 and most of 2007. It's the nature of Sox fans, you know that.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:07 PM) No people say I love Wise, Dye, Jenks, et. all. Not just Oz. Don't forget Juan Pierre.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:01 PM) No, he gave them every chance to give him a counter offer, of which there was no guarantee he would accept. I'm sure he would have accepted a bit of a hometown discount, but exactly how much less? If the Sox could only afford 3/$27, I doubt he stays in Chicago instead of going to Miami. With the recent bad seasons & the Terrible Trio's contracts, I'm not sure the Sox thought they could offer him a fair market offer. We know EXACTLY how much. KW said it himself with the ATM comment, $56 million and four years. We would have saved $2 million (hometown discount) compared to what the Marlins were willing to pay him.

Economy. Ticket prices. Parking. Prioritizing your family/having enough money to buy Christmas presents, take a family vacation OR buy an Ozzie Plan. Not a difficult choice for all but the most ardent of Sox fans. With the product on the field the last 3 years, and with how things are ending with Buehrle and probably 1/3rd of the roster, what fans would want to support that type of organization? To watch Dunn/Rios/Peavy? REALLY? The White Sox have never priced their packages to the middle class or casual fan since they opened the new ballpark. With the White Sox, it literally is about that Top 10% and corporations, not the stereotypical blue collar South Side diehard fan of the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. If Kenny Williams was gone, you'd have a heckuva lot more optimism about the future. Still, the Blackhawks have shown you can take a franchise from the dumps of despair back to the penthouse fairly quickly.

If Williams makes another illusion to the ATM being empty, a problem which he's 90% responsible for....good God, how does that guy still have a job? It's bad enough that he's back, but when every comment out of his mouth shows zero respect for the intelligence of the fanbase, you'd have to think Brooks Boyer would highly desire to have him put in a straightjacket by now. And u wonder how many weeks and months it will take to develop any reasonable marketing plan for this organization in the state it's heading into... It's like he lit his own house on fire intentionally (maybe a tactic which should be contemplated for the restaurant) and then he's not acknowledging why the insurance examiners would be pointing their finger in his direction.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 09:44 PM) 1) yes, they did the same for Wilson 2) give me a break, they were never going to match that deal 3) he almost went to the Nationals, so he was never going to retire I mean, the package Buehrle got from the Marlins makes a lot more sense for Wilson. Probably not Buehrle. So just questioning the likelihood of the offer even being made without Ozzie firmly in Mark's corner.

Well, a few things we'll never know for sure: 1) If the Marlins would have offered that package without the presence/relationship with Ozzie? 2) If Buehrle would have signed with the Sox had Ozzie stayed (doubtful)? 3) What the best offer would have been from the Cardinals or other teams? Or if he actually would have retired if the Sox/Guillen and Cardinals both weren't options?

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:38 PM) Good thing he wasted money on Frasor to try and justify a terrible trade. The only time I can ever remember letting a player go and not attempting to keep him (to justify a past trade) was David Riske...(ironically we would have been better off keeping the LH set-up guy Javier Lopez in the first place). We now shouldn't be surprised that he's hoping and praying for a Frasor rebound (and possible trade to a contender) this time around.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:06 PM) Give what up? Are you saying he wasn't going to be ranked #18 in the Blue Jays' 2012 prospect list by Baseball America? Several other people also heard Jim Callis say this. But please ignore this point and pretend that he's some elite prospect. I'm sure it makes the immediate rebuilding process that much easier in your eyes. How many of the "phenoms" even in top 25 for all the minors make it big? Most bust. Look at the White Sox and their huge backload of pitching depth in the minors from 1999-2001. Of all those guys, who are the ones who had the most impact? Arguably the most lowly regarded prospects, Mark Buehrle, Josh Fogg and Chad Bradford (yeah, I know some will argue Garland too). If the White Sox and Paddy really like someone, we have to live with that...we can second-guess all we want. You can look at all the 3-4-5 star ratings for high school football players, but it really is just ONE indicator, in the end. I know with my Iowa football team, having underrated 2-3 prospects like Bob Sanders, Robert Gallery or Dallas Clark was preferable to the blue chip 4-5 star guys that always picked OSU, Michigan, Penn State or Nebraska. Those players became stars because of work ethic and great coaching. The same is equally true in baseball as well. And 80-90% of the success of our pitchers has always been attributed to Don Cooper, right? I'm guessing Cooper had to have seen video of this kid (pitching in the minors this season), or they never would have traded for him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:13 PM) I'm now officially an ex-season ticketholder. I don't like rebuilding, and the rebuilder is a clown. As for Buerhle being a hypocrite, I don't think that's right. Being a free agent and talking to other teams, he was exposed to things he wasn't exposed to before. Opinions can change, and $58 million is $58 million to do something you love doing. IMO KW is rebuilding to give himself more time. They won't fire him if the team sucks for a while. Its imperative he hits a home run in at least a couple of these deals, but I have zero confidence. He's a bulls***er. Even his talk about "interviewing" Robin while he was playing for a manager job was sickening. If he truly did that, how come JR was one of the last to know? I hope he doesn't sit in his chair too much longer. Having him re-build is very dangerous. Where's Greg Hibbard when needed, haha? This whole thread is ridiculous. Buehrle has said the same types of things that EVERY ATHLETE IN THE HISTORY OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS has said about money. It would be the corollary to an athlete saying, "F--- my family, I'm going where the union and my agent tell me to go, for the most years, and the most dollars." Buehrle leaving was the right business decision for the Sox, there's no question about it. It just seems pointless that we kept the likes of Juan Pierre and Omar Vizquel on the team for as long as we did...but I guess most of that can probably be blamed on Ozzie, right? Buehrle will always be a favorite...and the lack of reaction is more of a generalized acceptance that our team is returning to the 1985-1989 and 1998-1999 mode of rebuilding and patience. That KW is still around absolutely sucks...when all we can do is hope if things go wrong next year (again) that it's so uncomfortable for Williams that he has no choice but to fall on his own sword. Seriously, it absolutely sucks when you expect that you're more likely to compete for the #1 overall draft pick than first place, and yet you have zero faith the White Sox will actually select the right player. I guess because Ozzie and Mark will be together, that does cause more of an emotional reaction on the part of fans...that he picked Ozzie over the White Sox/KW. Anyone is free to see it that way...but the same thing will happen to the future Marlins as happened to the 1997 and 2003 teams, eventually. I prefer to HOPE that everything that can go wrong won't continue to go wrong forever...otherwise, I won't be watching any baseball games for the next 2-3 seasons, except to watch Dayan Viciedo and Paul Konerko hit. They might as well just send Konerko, Danks, AJ, Thornton, Ramirez, Quentin and Floyd packing. With the possible exception of Ramirez, none of them will be around for when the White Sox are capable of contending again.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:06 PM) The guy who acquired these players and created this mess shouldn't be the guy responsible for fixing it. Its apparent there is something missing. His winter ball comments about Molina are disconcerning. He thinks he's playing winter ball now, but hie's not. Then the Sox have Reifert spin something. So if this is KW's trade, he's not up to speed on the player. If its someone else's trade, how about the Sox living up to it. He signed Iguchi without even seeing him in person. Obviously, Paddy's very familiar with Molina and what he projects him to be in the future. Otherwise, we're left with a conspiracy theory that Paddy's secretly sandbagging the White Sox (like the Hoyer/Epstein stuff the last couple of years) to the benefit of his former boss, AA.

QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:03 PM) GordonEdes Red sox disappointed that Santos wasn't shopped to them b4 White Sox sent him to Tor. Way to go Kenny-that's how you trade. Only talk to one team and pull the trigger. Kenny your time is way up. We need someone with a change of philosophy on trading. For the past 2 years, the Sox haven't come out ahead on any of Kenny's decisions: Rios waiver, Dunn, Teahen trade/contract, Peavy, Rushing Beckham, Swisher both trades, Ohman-2 year deal, and list goes on. I know it's not going to happen, but Jerry FIRE KENNY WILLIAMS. Santos Viciedo (the jury's still out) Addison Reed picking up DeAza for nothing Phil Humber The Ohman 2 year deal isn't horrible...in the overall list of worst decisions of MLB GM's, it's just "meh." I'll agree that if Rios/Dunn/Peavy don't perform at all this year and we have to eat all of their contracts (without Rios or Dunn just retiring or giving up), then we're in huge trouble. We all know that.

QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:21 PM) I am personally critiquing the trade and not the talent level of the player. To that end, I believe value was left on the vine. This said, I have reservations about Kenny's staff to properly evaluate/scout talent. We have one of the worst minor league systems in the majors and Kenny has recently traded off middle to top of the rotation talent (Hudson and Gio) for which we now have nothing to show. The Edwin Jackson trade was utterly mind boggling, because of who the agent was. Kenny knew Jackson was a short term solution and he really wasn't that much of an upgrade (if any) over Hudson. And OH BY THE WAY, take a prospect WITH HUDSON as well. What kind of sense was that trade? none!!! The Gio trade, which included another elite prospect + going for a mediocre outfielder is also something a 'good front office' does not do. The people responsible for the current sorry state of the White Sox are the ones we are asking to rebuild this thing!!!! I just have my doubts. I really am very cynical right now, as much as I've been in a long time about this franchise, but as White Sox fans I guess we're used to that on some level. We buried the Teahen debacle and freed up payroll (possibly to be used on Buehrle) We have a pitcher that at least has the ability to be a 3-4-5 starter in our rotation for the next five years. So I wouldn't call that nothing. Can't argue about Gio Gonzalez, although I'd still like to see him put up those same numbers pitching half of the time at USCF.

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