caulfield12

QUOTE (YASNY @ Aug 13, 2008 -> 10:11 PM) He screwed up by leaving the clubhouse during a game. Was that the Tigers' game he started in freezing conditions at home...then he got roughed up and left before the game was finished? I can't remember clearly, but it seems like there was an "impasse" with the front office, he went on the radio and made some comments, and basically KW and Ozzie eventually decided to exile him from the organization. Maybe the actual trade happened later in the season.

Ramirez is obviously the SS of the future. He's out of position at 2B, and has still shown flashes of GG caliber defense that nobody in the majors can claim...and his bat's even more of a plus at SS. Beckham will go to either 3B or 2B, depending on what happens with Crede/Fields. Then you have to keep Uribe in the mix as well, especially if he continues to play better defense than Crede showed the first half of season. He's saved more runs (and big runs) in the last 3 weeks than we've given up offensively by having him in the line-up. Actually, he's had some good moments with the stick, too...I remember in 2004 he basically carried the Sox for the first two months of the season (or was that 2003?) One of those seasons. (Note, the only thing that will affect Beckham's final position is what KW does with Fields...as Crede, if he did come back next year, it would be on a one year deal with incentives. And that's completely dependent on what he does the rest of the seaason, if anything). Getz could become the heir-apparent at SS, with Beckham then going to 3B. If gets becomes an "Aaron Miles" type player, he will probably just become the utility infielder (Ozuna role). On a playoff-caliber team, I think Ramirez and Beckham are up the middle and Getz is on the bench as the swing man (Uribe/Ozuna). We'll see. I never thought Aaron Rowand should be an everyday player...so prove me wrong Getz. I don't think he could come close to being the debacle that was the Andy Gonzalez Era of Sox baseball. Thankfully, that didn't last very long at all (but it seemed to be forever!)

QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Aug 13, 2008 -> 06:45 PM) the francisco and rupe trade was for the first everett trade in which we didnt make playoffs. I think it was Rauch and Majewski the 2nd time Yeah, that trade was in July of 2004. I guess you can argue that it was worth it...although it would be nice to have Rauch back now. Seems he had a lot of problems with KW and Ozzie in particular, I think he was late one time and there was the intimation of an attitude problem and I think Rauch also felt they didn't give him enough starts to prove himself?

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 13, 2008 -> 08:27 AM) True, but Contreras was injured when Byrd cleared waivers, and to my best recollection remained injured when he was dealt to Boston. Ozzie was quoted in the suntimes that they believe/d that their internal options were better...although how you argue Carrasco/Broadway over the veteran Byrd is beyond me. Maybe that's KW's official "company line." Second, with three off days in the coming weeks, we can skip the 5th spot at least three times out of the final 8-9 starts. I guess it will be interesting to compare what happens (beginning tomorrow) with Bryd's Boston starts and compare the results in terms of quality starts and innings eaten. I mean, when KW had a chance to make an official claim, he passed...at that point, the bidding was open to the best deal that was available. Because BOS has both more financial resources and minor league talent, and they're not in the same division, and Epstein was concerned with Buchholz and Wakefield was just DLed, he was probably the most aggressive and earliest bidder. They they announced exactly what the trade was yet or is it PTBNL?

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 05:31 PM) I greatly appreciate everything that Jon did for this team. That said, I agree that he's not that great. For some reason, he never developed a good offspeed pitch. And because he can't keep hitters off-balance by changing speed, he's ultra-reliant on command. If he's not locating that sinker or two-seamer and gets behind in the count, hitters will sit on his fastball and pound the crap out of it. +1,000,000 Which is my real "sore point" about 2003, not the Ritchie trade which killed our depth (along with injuries and non-performance), but the single biggest swing in players was us bypassing Kenny Rogers as the 5th starter...a relatively cheap signing which paid off huge for the Twins and left us one pitcher short. I can't remember what his contract was that year, but it wasn't that large, as he had yet to truly resurrect his career at that point.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 12:58 PM) Ozzie The only reason for that is because he has serious misgivings and doesn't trust anyone (Fields, Wasserman, Logan, Richard, Haeger, Broadway, etc.) to actually come up and get the job. Say what you want about DJ Carrasco and his 83-88 MPH fastball, at least he's gotten some big outs since he joined the club. Look at the SunTimes today...Ozzie is expressing serious misgivings about taking Carrasco out of the pen, because that means there will be 2-3 games where he can't be used in the bullpen as the fourth guy after Jenks/Dotel/Thornton. We're missing that critical 6th-7th inning pitcher who can be relied upon. Obviously, it's not Adam Russell yet. As of now, there's no official decision on Thursday's starter. Since we're going out to OAK, if we can take a 1 1/2 game lead into Thursday's start, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Broadway gets the start at all. If it's 0.5 ahead or behind, I think he will go with Carrasco instead. Just a hunch. Remember, there are three times (at least) in the last 8-9 times through the rotation we can skip the 5th spot. I also think this was another factor in not acquiring Byrd...Ozzie said himself they didn't believe he was any better than their in-house options, although Byrd was admittedly having mechnical problems and has really pitched well the last 4-6 weeks for CLE. Also, perhaps there was the idea that the AL Central opponents were already more familiar with him...that the advantage of a new "look" from a rookie might be better than a veteran every team has seen 2-4 times in the last couple of seasons. Then again, that rookie theory didn't work so well with Boston's starter yesterday or Richard either (or any White Sox pitching prospect in seemingly 5+ years).

Matt Ginter was pulled off the 2000 Olympic roster late in the season as the White Sox were struggling with injuries to their starting rotation...but his impact was pretty marginal, about the same as Richard's I would guess. Actually, Richard did have more of a negative impact than someone pitching out of the bullpen in mop-up IMO.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Aug 12, 2008 -> 08:22 PM) I don't care what anyone says, IMO, Javy is our 2nd best pitcher. Before I'd say he is our best, but that title goes to Danks now. Ummmm...no. Not until he has a stretch where he beats 2-3 above .500 teams consecutively (something like Floyd and Buehrle are much more capable of doing, although Gavin's been fading, despite the win total...heck, Adam Russell is 4-0) He's the pitching version of Thome (to many Sox fans)...great stats and looks good on paper...but sometimes he comes up short when we really need the big hit or clutch start against the best teams in baseball.

The other major complaint is the young players in our system that we rode to the point where their value was almost nothing...in other words, we missed their "sell by" dates by wide margins. Of course, it's easy to say in hindsight that Borchard/Fields had big swings or were more athletes playing baseball, rather than baseball players who happened to be athletic (see Alexei Ramirez or A. Soriano). It would have been hard to predict the rash of injuries that overtook Barcelo, Parque, Honel, Stumm and Rauch. Of course, many veteran posters were never convinced that Rauch had dominating stuff, the mentality to be a front-line starter or the type of pitching motion that would lead to durability. Bottom line, Borchard and Rauch failing miserably at the big league level especially hurt, no doubt about that. Joe Borchard (although Thornton has worked out great, he could have gotten us a starting position player or pitcher at one point) Josh Fields Rob Valido (kidding...sort of) Kris Honel Royce Ring Matt Ginter Lorenzo Barcelo Brian West Rocky Biddle (although the Colon deal was still a "steal" for the Sox) Jeff Liefer Brian Anderson Lance Broadway Kyle McCullough Sean Tracey Chris Singleton Jeff Abbott (people forget he was a pretty highly-touted prospect, similar to Reed) Kevin Beirne Aaron Myette (actually, Clayton had more of an impact, but I would rather we left Valentin at SS, in retrospect) Danny Wright Jon Rauch Jason Dellaero Jason Stumm Rob Purvis Willie Harris Josh Stewart Francisco Hernandez Andy Gonzalez Of course, the Devil's Advocate position is that most of these guys were NEVER that good in the first place, and that we were lucky to get anything in return for them!!! The other disappointment/observation...has been the huge lack of impact from our first rounders/scouting, when many prospects such as Matt Garza and Matt Cain (25th pick in 2002) were taken lower than our reaches and relievers/Royce Rings (one of the weirdest picks of all...thanks for the memories, Robbie Alomar!) Finally, the huge disappointment with Latin American scouting since the Ordonez and Lee deals. You look past Latin America, and the MLB contributions of Ramirez/El Duque/Contreras and Takatsu/Iguchi, it's a barren wasteland. We still haven't found a player that we "incubated" in our own system. Perhaps Jose Martinez or Juan Silverio will change that, but they're both pretty raw at this point and a long ways off from contributing to the Sox.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 13, 2008 -> 04:49 AM) Which is why he dealt Byrd to Boston for a PTBNL or cash? Are you f***ing serious? This is one of KW's non-moves that is going to drive me wild, even amongst rumors prior to the season that Byrd is (and potentially still is, for all I care) an HGH user. Byrd's dealing isn't going to f*** the Indians in the long run, regardless of whether he helped the Tigers, Twins, or Red Sox...so why did the f***ing Sawkx give him above all? I don't get it I would like to point out that one of the Sox best A-ball sluggers returned, in net, Carlos Quentin. Precisely. No catch. That's what Chris Carter, who was a monster in low-A Kanny, was traded away for last year. Nothing against the dude (I love him...I interviewed him)...but he was in A-ball (and as I recall, he's putting up good numbers this year too...he should be a major league power hitter someday), showed promising numbers, peripherals, and measurables, and was traded away for a dude who the DBacks had thrown in the scrapheap. KW can trade those A-ballers for MLB players any day of the f***ing week as far as I'm concerned. A Carter for Quentin trade doesn't happen any day, but a Shelby and Fields for Beltre plus a bit could help the Sox dramatically. Just saying. You are merely talking of Konerko here, right? Cuz I know you hate Thome, but, God-forbid, he's once again one of the best hitters in the league. God-forbid. Cuz, thanks to him, the Sox won that last game against Detroit 6-5. Without Thome, the Sox probably lose (and I italicize probably because whoever wasn't in the lineup that day could have hit a homer too). Speak what you want of late and close stats, but, as far as I'm concerned, early and close means just as much, because, if your bullpen is good, late and close means absolutely f***ing nothing to me. He's going nowhere and I hope you know this by now. I also hope you understand that the Sox pen has gone to absolute s*** since Linebrink went on the DL; had he been healthy this entire time, I imagine the Sox would be 3.5 games up at this point. Without Linebrink, there has been a huge struggle to get to the 9th, let alone keeping the game close to even get to Bobby. When the bullpen was healthy, it was clockwork - 6th inning, starter leaves; Dotel enters, does work; Linebrink enters, does work; Jenks enters, does work. It was clockwork, and the bullpen has struggled to conform to that. They'll struggle when he gets back too. If they're in first when the bullpen gets back to 100%, the Sox will win the division and if they hold a lead in the postseason, it'll be a struggle for any team to beat them. Kalapse's reasoning has brought us to another point...Garland was traded for the White Sox shortstop this season plus two draft picks in the 2009 draft. I would venture to guess that the Sox will draft within slot at about #22 (or wherever), they'll reach for a guy at 37 (or whatever it is) and take a guy who was slotted for the mid-to-late 2nd that they like who should make the majors and have value in a trade or at the MLB with their sandwich pick. I don't think they get good value for the second 1st rounder, but maybe they do, and if they do, f***ing fantastic. KW is restocking the farm systemt and he'll continue doing it just as he has; he will also continue depleting it at a rate that you've never seen, yet he'll deal no-namers and guys who have the tools yet still can't succeed in the majors at an uncountable rate. It's fascinating, isn't it? Looking back realistically, notwithstanding all the b--ching and moaning, there are only a few players that have been traded that you could make legit arguments that the Sox are worse off for not having... Gio Gonzalez and Sweeney (debateable, and the Sox would definitely not be better off THIS season, in terms of position to make the playoffs) Chris B. Young (debateable, although long-term still looks to favor the D-Backs, it's not quite so clear-cut...and Young still isn't a sure thing...to be anything more than Mike Cameron, Jr.) also depends on what get back in return for Javier, of if we make the playoffs and he has a win or two there Frank Francisco (we wouldn't have won it all in 05 without Everett) Matt Guerrier (while Guerrier has had a substantial Twins' career, Marte was VERY good for a while and was still a serviceable, albeit undependable in the latter stages of '05, lefty reliever...SUMMARY=at times fantastic/electric, like Thornton, but maddeningly inconsistent) And, in all fairness to Thornton, he has been overused/overexposed recently due to the Linebrink injury...which Thornton acknowledged was a big reason for the struggles in the final BOS game.

You have to go with logic here...when Byrd was placed on waivers, at that time, Contreras was still healthy and/or projected to pitch and return to the Sox rotation. Hence, KW passed on Byrd, because I'm sure taking on an additional starter (and something like $2-3 million dollars in payroll) simply as insurance and replacing Masset's role wouldn't have been warranted by that time. Then you have the fact that the asking price would have been much higher dealing within the division...for instance, there's a lot of speculation that the Yankees dumped Hawkins and solicited a deal with Houston to prevent him from going to the Twins, who they were scheduled to play in the near future and who many (including Gardenhire) were advocating to return as a 7th/8th inning guy with Neshek's comeback deemed improbable this season. Sure, it's great to have depth and a quality back-up at every position on the 25 man roster, but it's just not realistic from a payroll standpoint, and the oft-mentioned fact our minor league system is a barren wasteland/abyss.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Aug 12, 2008 -> 10:26 PM) The Yankees win. THEEEEEEEEEEEEE YANKEES WIN. http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/26...QL7PQLanchO7DiU Very good article on the Twins' bullpen over the last 7 years under Gardenhire and their current problem/s

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 10:26 PM) No. Oh, well, except for where you posted the exact same list with the exact same formatting and said that Webb and Beckett were possibilities for KW deals in the next 2 weeks. But, no, other than that, nowhere at all. Boy, am I embarrassed for misreading that one! I'm glad I have more serious baseball fans like you around to straighten me out. How soon can we get Mulder here? That guy's awesome. He pitches for the Philadelphia A's, right? Ummm...first of all, you might want to blame the Internet in rural Thailand for why it posted three times (as I thought I posted once here and once in the waiver wire section)...I'm sure you have tried to post to Soxtalk from the middle of a third world country before and you expect that everyone in the world is fully-outfitted with T1 cable line and that double-posts never occur because that kind of thing would never happen in the United States. I posted it twice...please send me to Guantanamo Bay. Did you just wake up on the wrong side of the bed, seriously? In the time I've posted at chisox.com, WSI or here, I can't remember deliberately fighting with anyone but ncorgbl, but that's because he was such a jack-ss. The original list, I had underlined those players who were possibilities. I can't remember, maybe I wrote down asterisk instead of underline, but I'm sure that you knew (if you read the boards at all) that I've never said anything so preposterous. Well...then again, sure, we can get any player in baseball, technically, if we trade away Ramirez, Quentin, Danks and Jenks. Doesn't make it helpful trade, however.

Who is our best candidate to hit 2nd, though? Chris Getz? Ramirez? We really don't have any fundamentally-inclined, bunting, hitting to the right side capable guys on this team. It's definitely not Uribe, and Ramirez is a rookie and just doesn't have enough patience at the plate...something like 9 walks. Cabrera should be 2nd, ideally. AJ is ONLY there because he makes contact 90% of the time and he's fairly good at doing what is required of him depending on the situation...up until the string of GIDP's recently. Another area where somewhere like Tad Iguchi's real impact wasn't easily quantifiable, but you only appreciate it when it's missing/gone...or Crede's defense (when healthy).

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:32 PM) I wouldn't touch Bedard with a f***ing 23 foot pole. Any GM who has seen us when he was absolutely "on" against another team, like he has been against the White Sox a few times over the last 2-3 seasons would give it serious consideration. Like Vazquez, sometimes he looks like a 1-2 starter, sometimes like a 4/5. Then there's the whole "well, Coop can fix him" mentality Sox fans have about every pitcher who comes our way. Well, that didn't work so well with Aardsma, Sisco, MacDougal, etc. Although I know Matt Thornton gives him a lot of credit for simplifying things for him and just getting him to go out there and throw strikes (well, at least until yesterday's game). I think we can consider ourselves fortunate to escape with a split from this series.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:38 PM) Smoltz and Mulder are both done. With Contreras done and nobody in our farm system ready yet, Kenny's probably not going to move Vazquez. I don't know who this theoretical guy with 2-3 years left on his deal to replace Vazquez is. Most of the people you mentioned in your list are either much better than Vazquez, significant downgrades from Vazquez, or complete garbage. That's obviously the problem KW has...he can't afford to go out and get Penny, Padilla or even Brett Myers, who would be a huge risk down the stretch. He probably can't even afford to give up what they're asking for Washburn. It is a little mysterious about Byrd though...the guy's a veteran, knows the AL Central as well as anyone, he beat Contreras in the 2005 playoffs when he was clearly the best pitcher in baseball and he would bring that "bulldog" (the pitching version of grinder) mentality to the pitching staff. Vazquez just seems too nonchalant about his losses...the same thing Garland was oft-accused of. OTOH, any of the band-aid solutions cost the White Sox further minor league depth and still probably leave us short of the playoffs. He's in a really precarious situation where he will tempted to overreach, especially if we are within shouting distance after the Twins' current homestand is over and the Twins are 2-3 games ahead of us (probably).

QUOTE (MurcieOne @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 10:55 AM) I thought at first we acquired this guy..... whew With the way he has killed us this year (10/31), well below .500 against the rest of MLB, it might be worth it just to give up Anderson Gomes' vaunted speed just to take him out of their line-up. Thankfully, Grudzielanek is also on the shelf for them too.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:47 PM) their fans are convinced we are going to win the division it's funny the similarities between us just shows you that both of these teams are massively flawed and not great, the division is a crapshoot at this point Typical Twins' fan 1) Our rotation doesn't have anyone after Liriano that you feel confident will win a clutch post-season game 2) Pohlad is cheap, cheap, cheap 3) Adam Everett, Bret Boone, Tony Batista, Livan Hernandez, Craig Monroe, Ponson, Juan Castro, Phil Nevin, Ruben Sierra, Ramon Ortiz, etc. 4) GM's will never trade minor league depth to put them over the top 5) Team keeps "rebuilding" or giving up critical vets (Hunter, David Ortiz, Santana, etc.) that always seem them 1 bat or arm behind in the playoffs 6) Twins will embarass the AL Central by going out in the first round 7) Gardenhire sucks 8) Bill Smith doesn't know how to make a big, splashy move...he's an institutional, IBM type egg counter

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:44 PM) You know what's amazing about our bullpen....outside of Jenks, not a single one of them has a good offspeed pitch. Bring back Shingo and the frisbee! The gong was priceless fun while it lasted.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:40 PM) Twins are in great position to win 7 or 8 of their next 9 games. You never know what can happen in a pennant race. Nobody expected Minnesota to give up two 2-run leads to KC and blow two games to the Mariners in a row. Anything can happen...and often does...when you underestimate other MLB teams. The Twins are still a quite young and maturing team. Do they face Duchsherer in that series or not? After 8 more at home, the Twins have 14 on the road...and at least they can knock the Yankees off our tails in the WC race, if it comes down to that. Then it will be a five team race for four spots.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:37 PM) Russell's stuff is nothing special. 94 mph fastball, extremely flat slider. I'm not blaming Ozzie for this....KW's inability to find another righty reliever is killing us. Okay...I am just saying, compared to Wasserman or Carrasco or someone of their ilk, he has a much better raw arsenal...it's just not polished, and he is definitely a work in progress. However, I wouldn't put him in the Jon Adkins category just yet, either.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:31 PM) There's just no excuse to have a pitcher with a 5.52 ERA coming into a 1 run game in the 8th inning with 50 games left in a pennant race. There won't be a pennant race with 15 games to go (see 2003) if we completely burn out and overexpose Thornton, Dotel and Jenks. Linebrink probably won't be coming back...and Ozzie needs to find a fourth reliever that he can count on somehow. There's no better way than now. He could be forced to use someone like Russell in Minnesota with a week to go and down by two games in the standings, it's better to establish exactly what he has right now. Russell has the third best "stuff" of anyone in the bullpen, arguably (although you could certainly make a case for Dotel, even with a diminished arsenal after injury). He should/could be someone you project as that missing piece, because we're not going to get much better from someone we can sneak through waivers, unless KW is willing to take on another big contract (Dotel, Linebrink, Jenks after this season, Thornton and MacDougal) in the pen.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 10:28 AM) You want Kenny to trade for John Smoltz, Mike Hampton, or Mark Mulder and then sign them to an extension? I sure don't. Kenny's probably not going to sign any pitcher he trades for this season to an extension. Not with Buehrle, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd under contract for the next couple of seasons. Many of the players on your list (Webb, Harden, Lackey, Lee, Beckett, Hudson, etc.) are going to command well in excess of $50 million guaranteed. The Sox almost never give that kind of money to free agent veteran pitchers. Kenny tends to limit himself to trading for guys with $30 million left on their deals and I don't think that he's looking towards the 2010 rotation just yet. No, that's why they are not underlined... Smoltz and Mulder might never pitch again in the major leagues...only our medical staff could determine their situations after doing some due diligence, but I am pretty sure Smoltz is either done or he will try to make his comeback with the Braves. Mulder might draw a little interest, but less than Freddy Garcia did after his recent tryout...not until he can at least throw 86-89 MPH again. Vazquez is the most obvious candidate to move, with Contreras done. However, you have to consider 1) whether we will get anything worthwhile in return based on his performance the last 6-8 weeks, 2) whether he's going to bounce back again next year, and the likelihood of finding anyone who can come close to leading the AL in strikeouts, 3) whether it's safe for KW to take the $20-30 million he was going to invest in Javier and Contreras and put it into a veteran (at least 3 years of service) pitcher.

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 10:20 AM) So your forward thinking is that Beckett, Webb, Bedard, Lee, Escobar, Harden, etc etc etc will pass through waivers and their respective teams will be willing to deal them to us. God, if only I had thought forward! First, as is obviosly denoted (didn't think I needed to provide an explanation to more serious baseball fans), the ones that are underlined are the ones that KW will be considering. It's the full list...I don't think anywhere on there I mentioned that KW was going to be able to trade for any of those pitchers. Although I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he took a stab at someone like Bedard for Fields, Poreda, Silverio/Martinez and a B level pitching prospect.

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Aug 11, 2008 -> 09:29 AM) You already posted this list in TW, and it didn't make any sense there, either. Simple...you have to use forward thinking. 1) We need a starting pitcher (and maybe 2, perhaps Ramirez is one of them) for Contreras and possibly Danks if he tires 2) We almost never enter the open bidding process for a FA pitcher in the offseason 3) When we make an acquisition, it's almost always (see Garcia, Contreras, Vazquez, etc.) a pitcher who we have under contract control or feel very confident we can get to sign a long-term deal 4) Washburn fits this profile...of someone we would keep next year, and even though $10.35 million seems like a lot of money, it's similar to what Contreras was going to receive AND the odds of getting anyone for less (and not having to give them 3-6 years) are minimal at best from the FA market 5) It's KW's style to find an underrated/undervalued pitcher with talent...but not one that we would just "rent" for a couple of months 6) Having them signed through next year gives us payroll certainty but not the commitment to a long-term deal that might blow up in our faces, as most of those contracts (see Zito or Hampton) tend to do