Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2008 -> 12:46 PM) I'd make that deal twice, which means it probably won't happen. Agreed. Ricciardi makes that deal with his pants off.

I'd do that deal in a freakin' heartbeat. s***, I'd almost do it just for the prospects. If AJ denies arbitration he's going to sign with a contending team most likely. That's a late first rounder and a supplemental pick. That PLUS Burnett for the rest of the season instead of Contreras? f*** yeah, sign me up! I think it's BS though. That would be a KW steal.

QUOTE (Jeremy @ Jul 25, 2008 -> 11:56 PM) The bullpen may need to be reorganized, particularly if we don't make a trade. Jenks and Dotel should pitch the late innings and pretty much everything else should be up for grabs as of right now. Considering how bad guys like Masset and Logan are struggling, it's entirely possible that Haeger, Wasserman, or Egbert could be our third or fourth best reliever right now. My guess is that Jon Link is the next to get a shot if need be. He could stick. The 40-man roster is at 39 with Loaiza gone so he could be added easily. About trading Fields, if the deal lands us a very good pitcher to add to our rotation then I'd be all for it. Jose has his issues and is on the DL, Gavin and Danks should both wear down a bit as the end of the season dwindles down, and Javy has been mediocre for a while now. If we don't make a move then there's a good chance that Buehrle is our only dependable starter come playoff time if we get there. If Fields goes as part of a deal for a pitcher, then you simply call up Getz or Richar to add depth. If you want to add a bit more versatility you can bring up Bourgeois. He's not on the roster so if you need a spot just cut Dewon Day.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 25, 2008 -> 01:04 AM) She's blonde, she was a cheerleader (or dancer? either one is fantastic), she's gorgeous, and she loves sports. You find me a more attractive woman than that, and I'll call you a filthy liar. Allison Stokke. An olympian and the hottest woman in the world. Erin Andrews can't even sniff her panties, although I'd love to see her try Google that s***.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 25, 2008 -> 08:36 AM) BS. This is a guy who defected from his country possibly never to see his family again. This "he's a pussy" crap needs to stop. He's a proud tough man. His marriage broke up. That could affect a lot of people. He plays with injuries and gets in trouble if he doesn't disclose pain. Mark Prior was called a pussy because he disclosed pain. He was upset Pablo left, but so was most of the team. He was fine when El Duque was traded. Great post.

Poreda with a s***ty start... 3.2 IP, 6 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 4 BB, 5 K, 4.23 ERA at Double A On the season he's 6-7, 3.66 ERA, 118 IP, 113 H, 4 HR, 33 BB, 81 K, 1.39 GO/AO, .252 BAA

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jul 24, 2008 -> 08:24 PM) From this article, it sounds like Duch would be in for a big increase in salary from his $1.2 mill salary. That sounds like Beane about to trade a player before he gets expensive. The A's would likely get the most now for him. If they kept him for the rest of 2008 and he dropped off, teams would be leery of giving up a lot for him. A Fields and Poreda deal would have to be tempting to the A's. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...d=rss.athletics My question is, can they trade/ unload Jose C? My guess is yes. They could move Contreras to the pen as a long reliever/spot starter. Or, they may be able to include him in some kind of deal for another bad contract/unwanted player that ends after '09 or includes a team option after '09 that is unlikely to be picked up. Some players who fit that description: Frank Catalanatto, Ryan Franklin, Aubrey Huff, Geoff Jenkins, Austin Kearns, Kevin Millwood, Melvin Mora, Brett Meyers (hell no to the wife beater), Vicente Padilla (f***in asshole), Dave Roberts, Jason Schmidt (done forever?), Scott Schoenweis, Gary Sheffield (highly unlikely), Jaime Walker, Jarrod Washburn, Jack Wilson, Randy Winn, Dmitri Young. Most of these guys suck pretty hard but whatever. Maybe there could be a fit somewhere. Millwood and Winn could be good.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Jul 24, 2008 -> 08:04 PM) Did he say who plan A and B is? And wouldn't they deal for Duchscherer if 1 or 2 deals DON'T fall through? There's a Plan 1-A and 2-A. 1-A is Rowand, 2-A is Torii Hunter, and Plan B is Miguel Cabrera. Kenny also wants THE Alex Cora, not just someone like Alex Cora.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Jul 24, 2008 -> 09:39 AM) I didn't look into it but how does that work with compensation picks???????? I dunno but IIRC only the commissioner's office can approve trades and they don't approve trades for DL-ed players. Furcal would have to pass through waivers and then be dealt, but since he's a FA after the year and due compensation I'm sure he'd be claimed and then pulled back. *edit: And that's just assuming Furcal comes back prior to the Aug 31 waiver deadline. If he can't come back by then he can't be traded at all.

IIRC Furcal is done for the season

QUOTE (jackie hayes @ Jul 24, 2008 -> 09:22 AM) Man, Kenny Hates Prospects really hates prospects. I mean really just flat-out despises 'em. No thanks. The only prospects I like that I just traded away in my post are Fields, Shelby, and Griffith. The others are just names that I can type freely into crackhead trade scenarios. But in all honesty, I'd have no problem giving up those three guys so long as we got at least one star player back who can help us beyond this year and another guy with the potential to be at least above average in the very near future.

QUOTE (TCQ @ Jul 24, 2008 -> 09:21 AM) ^^^ Reading that was like watching Fantasia on an acid trip....Id take it though i suppose. We may have to then go out to armor square park and just ask people to fill our minor league rosters. That's fine with me. If we're going to pick up anything significant we'll have to trade Fields anyway most likely, so if we come to that point of trading the one guy we have with superstar potential who is ready now, I really don't care. Trade them all except Beckham, who we can't trade even if we wanted to.

I love this time of year. Here's my Super Trade Idea, a 4-team, 16-player deal. I think the last time anything like this happened was that Cubs-Red Sox-A's thing that I think was 4 teams and included a s***load of players including Nomar. My trade: Sox trade: Orlando Cabrera, Josh Fields, Aaron Poreda, Nick Masset, Chris Getz, Nevin Griffith, John Shelby Dodgers trade: Matt Kemp, Andy LaRoche, Chin-Lung Hu, Jonathan Meloan, Blake DeWitt Orioles trade: Brian Roberts, Daniel Cabrera, George Sherrill Rockies trade: Garrett Atkins Sox receive: Brian Roberts, Daniel Cabrera, Blake DeWitt Dodgers receive: Garrett Atkins, Orlando Cabrera, George Sherrill Orioles receive: Matt Kemp, Josh Fields, Andy LaRoche, Chin-Lung Hu, Aaron Poreda, Chris Getz Rockies receive: Jonathan Meloan, Nick Masset, Nevin Griffith, John Shelby 1. Why the Sox should do this: The Sox move Alexei to SS and up to 2nd in the batting order, add Brian Roberts as the 2B and lead-off man, move Contreras to the bullpen where he should be effective in Masset's role, and they add a live arm with potential to the back of the rotation. Contreras in the pen also allows him to rest up enough to step in later on in August/September to eat a few innings that would normally go to Floyd and Danks. The Sox improve defensively, not by a ton obviously, but they improve in 2009 if Crede leaves, and they get better AVG and contact at 3B along with the cheap price that Fields would bring. Cabrera's loss means nothing because the draft picks he'd bring would be more than replaced with Roberts. Poreda still doesn't have the secondary stuff to start although he could become a dominant setup man/closer and Masset isn't going to become anything all that great either, but he could be a nice back end innings eater with decent stuff. Neither bring the potential of Daniel Cabrera. Losing Griffith and Shelby hurts, but they won't be helping us anytime soon. Getz isn't a loss because with Roberts in the fold, Richar ready, and Beckham likely to be on the fast track, we won't need him. If we want a UT player they are easy enough to find during cuts in ST. 2. Why the Dodgers should do this: Because I want them to. Besides, giving up Matt Kemp for anything less than an offensive star with power who is under control past this year is dumb as all hell. Getting Garrett Atkins solves their need for offense at 3B, Sherrill provides a closer now that Saito is out, and OC gives them the SS they were looking for and should be able to re-sign. The Dodgers lose a s***load from the farm, but if OC re-signs they won't need Hu (who doesn't project to hit like OC anyway) and Atkins would provide more offense than anyone else they have there. There's the chance LaRoche could be better than Atkins, but seeing as though LaRoche has been rumored to go for a while now, I think maybe the Dodgers believe he won't turn into anything productive at the Major League level. I doubt their bullpen will miss Meloan all that much. 3. Why the Orioles should do this: Because they f***ing suck ass and getting this many high-ceiling prospects for a star 2B with no power, a 31-year-old lefty reliever who is putting up elite numbers but hasn't had an elite career, and a pitcher who after all this time hasn't even come close to sniffing his full potential should be like a wet dream for them. They can just start releasing some of the crap on their team left and right. Start one of Fields/LaRoche at 3B and move the other to 1B. Throw Kemp in LF next to Jones and Markakis (what a sick defensive OF that would be) and move Scott to DH. Start Getz at 2B and Hu at SS right away, and call up Poreda after the rosters expand to let him get a taste of the big league bullpen. A good ST and Poreda could be on his way to replacing Sherrill as the dominant lefty in the pen by as early as April '09. 4. Why the Rockies should do this: They're going to trade Garrett Atkins anyway, and they've said they want some guys who are mostly far away, so Shelby and Griffith give them that. They get a reliever in Meloan and Masset for the rotation. Masset has some potential to stick and is an improvement in any starting rotation that features Glendon Rusch. This might be a weak package for Atkins though as I don't know what they're asking or how other teams would value Shelby and Griffith. Just a stab in the dark.

Starter-wise, there's just not a lot out there for us this year. It's kind of a weird year because some of the teams that are normally down, out, and selling (TB, Marlins for example) are doing great and are looking to buy while some teams that are out of it and have talent we'd want (Yankees, Detroit, Cleveland) either aren't going to sell or won't sell to us. Really, we're already linked to the only interesting SP that are actually off the DL and available. You've got Duchscherer #1, Burnett #2, Daniel Cabrera #3, and that's pretty much all there is. As far as I can tell, this is pretty much how it looks as far as RHSP go for teams that either are selling or might decide to sell to us: Guys who won't be available at all: Roy Halladay, Tim Hudson, Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Jair Jurrjens, Brian Bannister, Jeremy Guthrie, Jake Peavy, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, Felix Hernandez Guys who *might* under the right circumstances become available, but probably aren't going to be made available: Zack Greinke, Gil Meche, Aaron Cook, Roy Oswalt, Ian Snell, Zach Duke, Anthony Reyes Guys who are or should be available, in order of how much I'd want them: 1. Justin Duchscherer 2. AJ Burnett 3. Daniel Cabrera 4. Aaron Harang 5. Kevin Millwood 6. Tim Redding 7. Greg Maddux 8. Vicente Padilla 9. Bronson Arroyo 10. Josh Fogg 11. Julian Tavarez 12. Miguel Batista 13. Carlos Silva Of those players, 10-13 I wouldn't take for free, 5-9 I wouldn't give up more than a couple nobodies for, and 1-4 I wouldn't give up Josh Fields for at all. If we can't put together a package for Duchscherer centered around Poreda who last I heard still doesn't have much of anything for secondary stuff, then I'd much rather make a play at someone in the second category because at least the players there are good now or are a good bet to be good in the future. I'd be very happy if KW made a run at Anthony Reyes if he's pretty cheap, or if he went after one of the Pirates pitchers having bad years. *Edit: I have to add though, if there was any way possible to say send off Contreras and a decent prospect for Millwood and assume his contract, even though Millwood is on the books through 2010, I think it would be a great deal. Millwood would be a very nice #4/#5 option and would certainly benefit from getting the hell out of Texas.

QUOTE (ChiCard @ Jul 18, 2008 -> 03:47 PM) If Broadway and Getz were in the package it could happen but is this the best move we could make? I'm thinking we stay with the pitching we have and get a "Willie Tavares" type if we get any help. If that's all it would take to get Duchscherer I hope we end up with him by the end of the week. 2B is a pretty easy position to fill with talent without spending a whole lot of money, and while good #4/#5 starters don't grow on trees, good #4/#5 starter prospects pretty much do. I just don't want to give up on Fields or Poreda if we can help it. I think the best possible package for the Sox would be something like Masset + Shelby + Nevin Griffith + 1 of Broadway/McCulloch/Richard/Egbert + 2 of Kanekoa Texeira/Russell/Link/Lujan for Duke and Santiago Casilla. The A's get 2 nice prospects in Shelby and Griffith, Masset who might be able to pretty much replace Blanton all on his own, a 4th/5th starter, and a couple live arm relievers. The Sox meanwhile pick up Duke to replace Contreras, moving him to the bullpen as the longman, and Santiago Casilla to come in to replace Masset and be yet another set-up man.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 1, 2008 -> 11:54 AM) Considering the Sox have Fields, albeit he's struggled mightily down in the minors (DL) I Don't see any reason to trade for a back-up third baseman. Regardless of the performance from Josh this season, if Joe goes down Crede is coming up (or the Sox are going to trade for someone else that is legit). The one thing that sucks is Fields trade value has got to be a lot lower than it was at spring training (when I was clammoring to deal his over-rated self). I really hope Josh can prove me wrong though. In regards to proving me wrong, want to tip my cap to Jim Thome for a hell of a June. Unless Crede goes down for the rest of the year, bringing up Fields is a bad idea for a pennant race. With Josh up, there would be quite a few errors and balls that get by him at 3B, plus he'd strike out a ton, and the power he'd bring is unnecessary in this year's lineup. Josh could cost us games and get booed pretty heavily, and considering all the set backs he's had this year from getting sent down to Triple A in ST to injuries and limited playing time, I don't want to throw him into a situation that could end up destroying his confidence and setting him back further. He needs to get healthy and on track at Charlotte and end the year on a positive note. It sounds like the Sox want to stay with 12 pitchers yet also hang on to Hall (obviously), Anderson, and Wise on the bench. If the Sox want to do that, they only have one spot left for a UT IF. Rather than keeping one of Uribe or Ozuna in that role, I think the Sox should specifically target a player who can play all over the IF and hit for average. I brought up Ramon Vazquez as a possibility if he's available (he's playing for Hank Blalock right now) because I think he would be the perfect fit to take Uribe's role as back-up IF. A guy like that can play everyday for stretches if need be or can be a sub in here and there. I want a veteran guy that will provide good AB's and won't get overwhelmed by a big situation.

I'd trade Joe Crede, Orlando Cabrera, Brian Anderson, and Paul Konerko to the Mets for Carlos Beltran, Jose Reyes, Billy Wagner, and David Wright. Good trade for both teams. The Sox improve a ton both now and in the future while the Mets finally receive a worthy excuse for playing such disappointing baseball. Seriously though, a couple of nice additions that should come cheap and in order of my preference: 1. Ramon Vazquez of TX as a Crede back-up. He's having a nice year and can play all over the place. 2. Rich Aurilia of SF as a back-up for Crede. He can play 1B and 3B. 3. Ron Mahay of KC as a third LHP. He can come in early or late for an inning or two or as a specialist. Edit: About Mahay, that would be kind of an embarrassment of riches and I'd only do it if it came cheap enough, i.e. if it involved trading a low-end reliever and really a non-prospect. Considering Logan and Thornton have both pitched like set-up men and have been used as such, and considering that Linebrink and Dotel are set-up men, we really don't need a dominant closer and five above average to dominant set-up men. But, it would be nice. B)

I'd hate it if the Sox signed Furcal. He's going to ask for a ton of money and his improvement over Alexei isn't going to be much. Moving Alexei to CF would be an option, but I just think Furcal is going to get 4 years and then disappear for about 2 of them. Just for fun, this is the type of offseason I'd like to see: 1. Deal for one of Figgins/Roberts without giving up a piece of the MLB team or Fields (this makes Roberts the much more realistic of the two) 2. Deal Paulie and Contreras for prospects (if PK agrees) 3. Let Thome walk 4. Deal for Johnny Damon who shouldn't cost much given his age and contract situation 5. Deal for Randy Winn who shouldn't cost much at all either in terms of talent The lineup: 2B Figgins/Roberts S SS Ramirez R LF/DH Damon L RF Quentin R LF/DH Dye R C Pierzynski L 1B Swisher S 3B Fields R CF Winn S We change the entire dynamic of the team without making more than one big deal that affects the farm and without signing a big FA to a new longterm contract. Adding Figgins/Roberts, Damon, and Winn adds a lot more contact to the lineup and seriously improves the team speed. We wouldn't have any basecloggers in this lineup aside from AJ, yet there's still power 2-9 in the order. There are other ways to play with the roster to balance it out a lot better and get away from what is going on now, but I like the temporary veteran approach for the moment until the farm gets back on its feet enough either to produce something special or give us enough ammo to acquire something special.

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Jun 28, 2008 -> 08:31 AM) After every speech in the Roman Senate, a Roman Senator would conclude with a Latin phrase Carthago Delenda Est, meaning Carthage must be destroyed. After 10 in a row for the Minnesota Twins, in which they have had ridiculous comeback after ridiculous comeback with a team that was supposed to finish in 4th place...something needs to be done. Minnesota needs to be destroyed. I need to hear how you intend to contribute. I plan on taking a picture of Joe Mauer out with me in the yard and picking up my dog's poop with it. Then I'm going to jinx the Twins by leaving "We Can Never Lose" messages on Twins blogs. And then I'm going to post a profile of Michael Cuddyer ("CuddyBear") on a dating website for overweight Minnesota singles. Please, let's hear some other contributions. By trying to jinx the Twins for the Sox benefit you may end up super-jinxing the Sox. I wouldn't try it. Instead I'd just silently hope the Sox pitching holds up and the offense stops disappearing for long stretches. If that happens we should be fine. I do think we need to get a good lead going into early September though. I could easily see this team pulling a 2003 and choking itself out of the playoffs.

QUOTE (gosox41 @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 09:42 PM) Are these numbers their season OBP's or their OBP's while hitting in the lead oft spo? I see what you're saying, and I selected the lead off role as an example because it's the obvious source. But most of the teams you mentioned here don't have 6 one dimensional hitters with no speed behind them. Some of these teams have guys that can do things like lay down a bunt and hit to all fields instead of trying to pull everything. FWIW, as hard as it is too find, I'll still take a prototypical leadoff hiter who can steal 50 bases and maintain a .370 or high OBP. Heck, I'll take less OBP right about now for a guy who can steal a base. It's why Sox fans voted Pods on the All Star team in '05. He was far from a great hitter. But he is a game changer. He messes with defenses when he's on base and it makes thoe that hit behind him more productive. that being said, I don't want Pods again. Those numbers are just their regular season OBP's this year. I don't know where to find more detailed stats as far as hitting in a certain spot. Yes, most of those teams have a lot better balance. We need some better balance too, and part of it IMO is finding some guys that can make things happen on the basepaths and play fundamentally sound baseball so that way we can manufacture runs here and there. I don't want Pods again either. He can never stay healthy and he can't play CF.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 09:31 PM) I would too, but there's pretty much nothing left in our farm system. I'd feel more inclined to hold onto what we have right now than trade away more talent for an average player that won't help this year's team very much. Kenny has dealt A LOT of minor-league talent over the past four years. If he's going to do it again, it'd better be for a big impact guy like Roberts or Figgins. Again, not talking about this year's team. I thought we already agreed on Kenny not making any big moves this season. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 09:31 PM) Funny, Swisher was our opening day leadoff hitter, no? I know what Ozzie likes, but he hasn't had that type of player since 2005. Yes, Swisher did lead off to start the season. Ozzie moved him because he didn't want him there anymore. The type of production Ozzie got out of the lead-off slot in 2005 either comes from a great player or a good player in a great year. We have a better shot of getting a good player and hoping he has a great year than we do of getting a great player. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 09:31 PM) So you're advocating trading for a player to hypothetically fill in for an injured player who hasn't gotten hurt yet, or to fill out a 2009 roster that's still completely up in the air? That's pretty silly. Um, I'm saying if someone goes down he'll be looked at, otherwise he'll be a target next year. As far as what priority he'll be, who knows, but he's on Kenny's list. I don't know why it's silly to speculate on the future of the Sox on a Sox fan message board. The makeup of the team has to change and it's probably not happening this season. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 09:31 PM) If the Sox are going to make a move this year, it's going to be FOR THIS YEAR. Not next year. As for acquiring Taveras in the off-season, that's fine with me because the Sox are going to be in rebuilding mode then anyway. I'm not relying on Anderson or Swisher to be a long-term option at CF. I'm hoping that Thome is gone next year, that JD moves to DH, that Quentin moves to RF, Swisher moves to LF, and somebody is brought in to compete with Anderson for CF. If it's Taveras, that's fine with me. But this isn't the time to trade for him. I agree, this isn't the time to trade for him. But, if KW got an offer he couldn't refuse I'd be fine with sending down Wise or dumping Ozuna or trading/sending down Anderson to give him AB's as a 4th OF for now. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 09:31 PM) I never said that he "sucks" and I find it sad that you're using these stupid straw man arguments. I've repeatedly said that Taveras is a "nice" player. Your posts in this thread have become downright dishonest. Just scroll up on the page, it's pretty easy to find you saying: "Taveras is worthless as anything other than a leadoff hitter. And if he can't consistently put up a .350-.370 OBP, his only option is to lead off for a team that has crap defensively in CF. That's not the 2008 White Sox." "And Owens pretty much equaled Taveras' career numbers in his rookie season. They're the same at the plate, with Taveras being better in CF." "Taveras can't get on base enough to play the "speed game." His OBP is freaking .305 right now, with a career average of .334. That absolutely sucks for a leadoff hitter." So he's worthless as anything other than a lead-off hitter, but his career OBP sucks for a lead-off hitter, and Jerry Owens is at least as good of a hitter if not better. I just summed it all up by saying you think he sucks - as an everyday player anyway, which is what this conversation is about.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 05:38 PM) Yeah, my response is based on a personal vendetta against Taveras. Good one. Oh, he's CAPABLE for sure. But WILL he do it? He's currently sporting an Anderson-like .305 OBP. Do you want to risk giving up a prospect, hoping that he improves and doesn't get hurt again? I don't. Wrong. That said, I don't think that Owens is a solution, either. He's inferior defensively. They're very different hitters, but I'll give you that Taveras is slightly better at the plate overall. Then again, at least Anderson fits the "defensive sub" role well. Taveras would be a downgrade as a defensive sub. Then why in the hell do you want to trade for a mediocre hitter like Taveras? Despite what you claim, he's not much of a contact hitter. Why not just go with a solid OBP guy like Swisher in the leadoff spot, who isn't much of a runner and has some power... rather than a base-stealer like Taveras, who can't get on to steal the stupid base in the first place? Speed is nice, and I'm all for it. But you need it at the top of the lineup, and Taveras can't hit there. Just like Owens. Also, some of the guys that you mention in that list (Rollins, Sizemore, Soriano) are valuable leading off because they can get into scoring position with one swing of the bat. Taveras and his .344 career SLG can't do that. Not nearly as idiotic as your posts. Taveras isn't worth crap with his current .305 OBP, even with his speed, because he can't freaking get on base. If the Sox want a mediocre-OBP base-stealer, they might as well promote Owens to Chicago for free. Your man-love for Taveras is mind-boggling. Is he a nice player? Sure. But is he worth trading a solid prospect to land when the Sox already have TWO center fielders on the 25-man roster? Hell no. And if the Sox DID trade for Taveras, who would you remove from the lineup to make room for him? Paulie's coming back in about a week, which means that Swisher (likely) moves back to CF. Are you going to bench Swish for Willy Taveras? I hope not. How about Quentin or Dye? Or Thome? THERE'S NO FREAKING ROOM FOR HIM! This isn't a fantasy team. You need players to fit specific ROLES. Taveras would be a 4th outfielder on this team, and he lacks the defensive prowess to be an improvement over Anderson as a defensive sub. Taveras isn't going to put up a .305 OBP forever. Yes, I'd buy low on a good player depending on the cost. Your argument about a high OBP guy at the top with power and not much speed is pointless. As long as Ozzie is making out the lineup cards, we're not going to have that. That's not his game. You can't put "a mediocre-OBP base-stealer" in the lineup when he's a liability in the field. When he can make the plays out there, then you can. I don't know why you keep getting this idea that I'd bench a slugger for Taveras if acquired. I've been talking about the 2009 team or this year's team if someone goes down for a considerable length of time. You say my posts are idiotic but you fail to realize that we're probably not going to have any player that you like as a lead-off guy for a long time, unless we make a splash for Roberts or Figgins next year. We're not going to have a Swisher type, or a Youklis type, or a Reyes type, or Rollins type, or anything like that. We'll probably have the same type of lead-off hitter we've had since Ozzie started managing the club, and that's a guy who doesn't overwhelm you with the bat or get on base at a high percentage but can do some things on the basepaths. Of all those kinds of players, Taveras is one that has a track record of being good and it's largely because of his abilities as a CF. It's not that I have man-love for Taveras. It's that I understand the type of team our manager and GM want to build, I understand that there are large financial commitments to certain players, I understand we have a very weak farm system, and I understand there will most likely be an opening in CF next year. Taveras has the speed Ozzie and Kenny like, he has a small salary, he shouldn't take all that much to acquire in terms of talent, and he plays a great CF. I too could go on and on about what type of player I'd prefer in the lead-off spot but there's no point since the majority of those players aren't realistic acquisitions. Taveras is a realistic acquisition which is why I mentioned him. In fact, according to Ed Farmer the Sox tried to acquire him both after 2006 and 2007. So if you think he sucks, well that's too bad because your team's manager and general manager both like him and he'll probably be a target over the offseason - even after a down year, just like how KW picked up the Great Podsednik.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 03:23 PM) Taveras is worthless as anything other than a leadoff hitter. And if he can't consistently put up a .350-.370 OBP, his only option is to lead off for a team that has crap defensively in CF. That's not the 2008 White Sox. And Owens pretty much equaled Taveras' career numbers in his rookie season. They're the same at the plate, with Taveras being better in CF. The silly comparison was Thome and Borchard. My point is that Taveras doesn't consistently get on base enough to lead off. And neither can consistently get on base enough to be solid leadoff hitters. Taveras can't get on base enough to play the "speed game." His OBP is freaking .305 right now, with a career average of .334. That absolutely sucks for a leadoff hitter. Taveras isn't "great" in CF. He's above average, and not nearly as good as Anderson. FWIW, I don't want Owens in Chicago right now either. I'd love to see Paulie sit on the DL until mid-August to let his hand heal and see how Anderson shakes out, but I don't see that happening. I'd also strongly consider releasing Thome, but I don't see Kenny doing that either. You're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Taveras is a nice player, but there's NO ROOM FOR HIM on the 25-man roster right now. The Sox already have four legitimate starting outfielders, and Taveras doesn't bring enough to the table to merit roster space as a 5th. And he doesn't hit well enough to merit demoting Anderson. The Sox need a legitimate leadoff hitter with some base-stealing capability. But it's not going to happen this year. They don't have the prospects to give up for said player and their roster is already overcrowded. Look, I know you don't like Taveras. You won't even say that he's capable of a Pods-in-'05 type year even though he had something very close to that last year. You think Owens is just as good at the plate, if not better, even though he hasn't proven it at the big league level. You don't think he's a better player than Brian Anderson even though he's been that through his career. You don't think a lead-off hitter is valuable unless he gets on base at a .350-.370 clip, even though you know we haven't had that for a long time and probably won't have it for a long time because, as you also know, Ozzie wants at least above average speed at that spot. Just looking around the league, if the season ended today, the following teams would make the playoffs: Boston, Sox, Angels, TB, Philly, Cubs, Cards, Arizona Looking at their lead-off hitters (players that have led off for 5 games or more): Boston - Ellsbury .358, Crisp .300, Pedroia .322 Sox - Cabrera .322, Swish .350 Angels - Figgins .422, Matthews .319, Izturis .330, Willits .319 TB - Iwamura .341 Philly - Rollins .346, Victorino .343, Taguchi .286, Werth .350 Cubs - Soriano .332, Johnson .343 Cardinals - Schumaker .367, Barton .336, Ryan .319 Arizona - Drew .306, Young .304 Out of those 21 players, there are a total of 5 that get on at a .350 clip or higher. 2 of them (Ellsbury, Figgins) are prototypical lead-off guys. Schumaker is kind of close to being that, Swisher is a middle of the order hitter who is no longer leading off because he doesn't have the speed, and Werth is a journeyman in the middle of a good year. Of those 8 teams only 3 of them regularly lead off with a guy who gets on at a .350 clip or higher, yet they'd all be playoff teams if the season ended today. You don't NEED to have a guy get on at that clip. The idea that a guy like Taveras is worthless with his speed if he can't get on at that clip is frankly idiotic. Over a 550 AB season, a hitter with an OBP of .350 gets on base 192.5 times. Over a 550 AB season, a hitter with a .334 OBP (Willy's career OBP) gets on base 183.7 times. The difference there is 8.8 times, so rounding up, the 9 fewer times Willy gets on base makes him worthless comparitively? That's moronic. Those 184 times he gets on he's dangerous, and if the difference between him and say Roberts is not only 9 successes but also two more high ceiling prospects in trade and probably $5 million plus in salary on top of that, I'll take my chances with Willy.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) Considering that Taveras has no power at all and a career .334 OBP, he's not really a "better" hitter. Taveras hits for better average and is a better situational hitter. Anderson has more power, and I like the guy by the way, but he's not a better hitter, especially for his role in the lineup. We don't need more pop-ups and home runs, we need guys that can move runners along and come up with clutch base hits. Brian in his MLB career has been the type of guy you hide in the lineup for his defense, whereas Taveras in his career has been used both for his bat/speed offensive combo and his defense. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) That's a silly comparison, especially considering that Owens almost equaled Taveras' career numbers in his first season with a meaningful number of at-bats. Taveras, 26, has put up his numbers over 1733 career AB's. Owens, 27, has 365. That's not a silly comparison. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) Pods was also limited with a groin injury over the past two months of '05 and Taveras has never had an OBP over .333 outside of last year. So why do you want him leading off again? I don't consider the 2005 Pods as anything more than an average leadoff hitter. His only real value was his speed. Taveras' time last year was limited due to injury and his manager going with the hot hand down the stretch. I don't get your point here. Pods' speed was his game. It's the same thing with Taveras. The difference is, Taveras is younger, has been healthier, and has the tools to play a premium position. You either have a manager that wants to play the speed game at the top or a manager that wants to play the base-clogging game at the top. Ours wants the speed game, and Taveras is a guy that can play it. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) The only thing that Taveras has over Owens is that he's better in CF. The two are pretty much equal at the plate, and one could argue that Owens has better upside as a base-stealer. But given that the Sox have both Anderson and Swisher available to play CF and that Taveras has too low an OBP to be a legitimate leadoff hitter, I don't see Taveras bringing anything special to the table that makes him worth trading for. Taveras might be useful to a team that has nobody remotely capable of playing CF and too few outfielders in general. That isn't the case with the Sox. It's not just that Taveras is a better CF, he is a CF whereas Owens is a bad LF. Taveras can play a defense-first position while Owens can only play a power position without the power. You are highly underestimating the value of a young speed guy that can play a great CF. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) There's nothing that Kenny can do at this point without giving up Quentin, Danks, Floyd, or Fields. I disagree. He can make moves to improve the club if we end up losing a slugger for a long period of time without sacrificing a major component of the team. If he wants an ideal leadoff hitter - .350+ OBP, plus speed, contact, fundamentals, instincts, defense at a premium non-power position, and the first true lead-off man we've had since Lofton - he's going to have to give up a ton. Roberts is the only ideal lead-off guy out there and the O's are asking for stupid s*** they're not going to get. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) This is probably Kenny's best bet for the remainder of the year. I don't think Kenny makes any serious moves this year unless a slugger hits the 60-day DL. QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:32 PM) No kidding. That's why the Sox are going to have to suck it up and deal with Swisher or O-Cab leading off this year. Willy Taveras isn't the answer and Kenny would have to mortgage the future to get a guy like Reyes or Ichiro. I disgree about Taveras not being "the answer" to a degree. We're probably not going to end up with anyone that is "the answer" at the lead-off position unless we can deal for Roberts, Figgins, or Willits over the offseason. If that's not the case, I think Taveras is the kind of guy we could strike gold with, ala Pods in '05 except as a better all-around player. If KW can pick up Taveras and a guy like Ellis or Hudson to hit second over the offseason, and they both have career average years, we'll have enough at the top of the lineup to change the dynamic of the team. We'll have enough to manufacture a run in the first inning and late off tough pitching, and we'll have the defense, the power, and hopefully the pitching to get us through the year.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 22, 2008 -> 02:08 PM) No, you're missing my point. I mentioned Terrero because he started out hot when brought up, but then went on to hit .231. In other words, don't get too excited about a career journeyman hitting well over a short period of time, as there's usually reason that player keeps bouncing around from team to team. I see, and I agree. Journeymen are rarely exciting.