Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Mar 20, 2008 -> 11:41 AM) Yeah, because they had 10 days after the WS to find a replacement or go forward with no SS. The White Sox hedged their bets and it bit them in the arse. Yet, if they didn't have Uribe and couldn't get Cabrera, then we'd have Cintron or Alexei or Ozuna at SS and OOOOOHHHHH the bashing that would be taking place, especially since Richar is hurt. I think we'd be much better off with Alexei as the starting SS instead of Cabrera and Garland in the rotation instead of Floyd.

QUOTE(Reddy @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 09:30 AM) not so sure about that part... and richar over Alexei? Thome doesn't exactly kill lefties as it is, plus some extra rest won't hurt him. Quentin needs the AB's more anyway, both now and for the future. Alexei can't play 2B like Richar can, and he needs regular AB's against American pitching still. I think he'd be best off in Birmingham against some better prospects in a larger ballpark instead of trying to get home run happy off AAAA players in Charlotte, and while he's there he should be playing SS everyday until Cabera signs a contract extension. If that doesn't happen, keep him there. If Cabrera does sign longterm around midseason, the Sox will be in better position to evaluate Anderson, Owens, and Richar and will then be able to move Ramirez to CF or 2B depending on which position looks open for '09.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 09:39 AM) The talent in the International League is weak to say the least. From last year alone. Richar hit near .350 with a .556 slugging percentage. He had a .400 OBP. .956 OPS how exactly did he transition when he came up. Did he hit near it, or was there an adjustment period. I mean he is talented, but even with talent there is a difference between the AAA and the show. Bourgeois hit .311 with a .813 OPS Bukvich has a 2.89 ERA Printz had a .56 ERA. Floyd had a 3.12 ERA. And lets look at some history down there. Felix Diaz looked like Cy Freakin Young in AAA. He was unhittable. He comes up here, and now is pitching in Japan. Jeremey Reed looked like Wade Boggs. How is he doing. Brian Anderson hit over 300 before he came up the first time. Don't forget Willie Harris hitting over .400.

QUOTE(Princess Dye @ Mar 19, 2008 -> 09:33 AM) But think about the word "stunt." Does he get worse by being down there? If not, then he plays next year. As pro-fields people are saying, we werent going to win this year anyway, right? Another way of looking at it -- doesnt Crede playing well also have a potential benefit to the farm system? aka trading him at midseason after a strong extended showing? There's more longterm value in getting more arms in the system than there is getting playing time for the 25 yr old Fields. I don't think so. Even if Crede has a good year up until around July and then we trade him, given his whole situation and the fact that there aren't going to be many contenders if any at all looking for a 3B with a mediocre at best bat, I doubt we'd get much more than a project and/or a longshot prospect or two. I think the best we could hope for would be something like Gavin Floyd/Kyle Davies type of pitcher + what we got for Aardsma. Even that might be generous. I think we have enough longshots and projects as it is already. It's time to take our ONE homegrown stud prospect and put him in the field everyday.

Not to be a downer, but I think it is kind of foolish to expect to contend this year. Even if Floyd and Danks turn out to be these "top of the rotation starters" the Sox have touted them as, which is a huuuuuuuuuuuge if at that, there will still be growing pains. And even if Jerry Owens turns into a capable lead-off man (OBP .350+, high SB%) which is another monolithic if, he is going to have to make his share of adjustments as well. Ditto Fields, ditto Quentin, ditto Anderson, ditto Richar, ditto Masset if he's the long man. I'd like to see as many of these guys grow together as possible, with the only exceptions being Wassermann (MacDougal needs a chance to find his dominance again because if he does he's worth a good prospect) and Ramirez, who needs to start every day in Charlotte. Personally, I'd rather send him to Birmingham but it looks like Charlotte is the place. I'd much rather see Uribe and Crede dumped off. If the Sox can find a team willing to take on the whole contract in exchange for a non-prospect I think that is the best case of the most likely scenarios. If not and the Sox are forced to take on another bad contract, hopefully the Sox could pick up a serviceable utility guy. If not, just look for a lesser bad contract and release that guy. Add Rouse to the team as a backup SS at the league minimum. Who f***in cares anyway. My roster would look like this: Starters vs. lefties/starters vs. righties/back-ups: C Pierzynski/Pierzynski/Hall 1B Konerko/Konerko/Swisher 2B Richar/Richar/Ozuna (1), Rouse (2) 3B Fields/Fields/Ozuna (1), Rouse (2) SS Cabrera/Cabrera/Rouse (1), Ozuna (2) DH Quentin/Thome/open LF Swisher/Swisher/Quentin (1), Anderson (2), Owens (3) CF Anderson/Owens/Anderson RF Dye/Dye/Quentin (1), Anderson (2), Owens (3) That's 13 position players and a 12 man pitching staff. Start Ehren in Charlotte to give MacDougal one last shot at not sucking, then if he doesn't suck, deal him for something of value and call up Ehren. Start Masset as the long man again, hope he doesn't suck, and then when he does go to Egbert or Broadway if one of them isn't already in the rotation covering Gavin's ass.

QUOTE(max power @ Mar 13, 2008 -> 06:16 AM) Why are you bringing up the falling price of the dollar? Its not as if rowand lives overseas or spends a bulk of his money there. The only other case in which the falling price of the dollar could be applicable is if Japan starts competing for our players. Contracts in baseball have gone up recently but you don't compare the future value of them when evaluating them. Its not as if you just say, well we paid him 24 million the last two years, but NOW its a good contract because its 3 years 36 million. Logically, that doesn't make any sense to me. My argument is that he is over paid right now. A large portion of the money will be paid in the next few years. It being a long contract after a career year makes it even riskier, not a 'bargain' because he may not perform close to the level of that amount of money, he may get often injured, and then San Fran will be stuck with him. Let me ask you this, was gary matthew jr's contract a bargain? Its five years too, so by your logic, it must be. There are three causes of escalating contracts: inflation, state of the market, and pressure from the players union which takes the first two into account. Your comment about Japan doesn't make sense. Inflation affects everyone. Why do you think the league minimum keeps going up? Because people are becoming more friendly? No, that's inflation. Yes you do consider the future value of contracts. Maybe YOU don't, but I guarantee both players' agents and ownership take such factors into account. It's their job. Since this discussion, or at least it would be a discussion if you actually provided some evidence to back your opinion, revolves around future value, then I think using a basic method of predicting future value is a good place to start. You say he is overpaid, but he's not overpaid. Rowand earned the money he got on the market. He didn't hold a gun to Sabean's head and tell him to fork over the cash. The Giants didn't even need a CF but they picked him up anyway because they thought it was a smart investment. The only way you could say he is overpaid would be if you found a comparable FA CF who signed on the open market during the same period for way less. The most comparable player on the market was Hunter, who has been more consistent and has won more Gold Gloves, so Hunter got $3 million more per year. Aaron's pay was right in line. You insist you use logic but in reality you are using none. Your argument is not an argument; it's an opinion reinforced by nothing other than the statement that it is risky, which no one would disagree with. Obviously it is risky. All long-term contracts carry risk, but such is the nature of the game. You say he "may get injured." Any player "may get injured." Unless I'm missing something, Rowand's major injuries have been from a bike accident and a hard play running into an unprotected part of a wall. It's not like he has some sort of chronic illness that will undoubtedly affect his play in the future. An organization's only defense against spur of the moment injuries is rhetoric and a training staff. You can't do much to prevent that as Miss Cleo doesn't provide the physicals. By my logic GMJ will be a bargain? If you don't understand the logic I'm using, please don't apply it to other topics. You picked one of the worst contracts in the game to compare to on purpose. Even still, GMJ's contract was not the result of the Angels overpaying. The Angels gave GMJ what they thought they needed to give him to acquire him. GMJ earned that money. As far as it being a smart investment, I would say no it wasn't a smart investment considering his age, the fact he was coming off of a career year after never even coming close to those numbers in years before, and the fact that he put up those numbers in a hitters park. But, the Angels made that investment so now they have to live with it. The only thing my logic says is that his contract will devalue as the contracts of other comparable players rise. If GMJ figures out how to sneak in some more steriods and starts tearing the cover off the ball again, then yes he will be a bargain. Now here's a cherry-picked example from me: Maggs Ordonez. He was originally "overpaid" to most people. Truthfully, the Tigers did pay more than other teams would have because they had to. They were a s***ty team then. But look at what has happened. They got Maggs for $12 million last year, which was way below 2007 market value for that production, he gets $15 million this year, again still below 2007 market value for those numbers, then he gets $18 million in '09 which is about his current market value, then back to $15 million in 2010 and 2011. He's their future DH so he should stay pretty healthy and hit a ton. Dombrowski was ripped pretty hard after that deal, but it was already a bargain last year and at the current rate it will be a total steal.

QUOTE(max power @ Mar 13, 2008 -> 03:44 AM) So every contract in baseball that is long term is a spectacular deal because 'they always go up'? I don't think so. Always isn't the word, but I agree with Tex in that Rowand's contract will likely be a bargain two years from now. It's hard to expect that everyday players manning premium positions will get paid equal or lesser amounts as the US dollar continues to fall. Rowand signed a five year pact, and just for quick rough reference, the $12 million he agreed to in 2007 dollars would have only been worth about $10.6 million in 2003, five years before. Rowand's contract will devalue over time, and if he's still at least as productive as he was when he signed the deal, by the end of the contract he will most likely be playing for no less than $1.4 million or so cheaper. I'm no economist but what I've been reading seems to indicate there is very good chance that by the end of his contract we'll all be in bomb shelters fighting rats for bread and thinking about what a good deal that was Sabean.

I wanted to start a new thread about the way the Sox spend money in dumb areas they could be spending in others instead. Someone made this very valid comment in another thread and I think it would make a great topic: QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Feb 14, 2008 -> 05:26 PM) Ideally, I'd dump Uribe, and use that $4.5M on the draft and some Latin American signings to re-stock the minor league system. I don't really see that Sox using that money that way though. Would be very pleasant if they did, but I won't hold my breath. Look at this It looks like the top 3 bonuses given to talent out of the Dominican Republic in 2006 added up to $4.7 million. These bonuses were given to Angel Villalona, Esmailyn Gonzalez, and Carlos Triunfel. Just for the record, Alex Cintron and Rob Mackowiak combined to make $4.15 million in 2006. If we had used minor league invites at the league minimum to back up at SS and LF, it would have saved us about $3 million. That alone gets you two of these guys, and roughly another $1.7 million gets all three. BTW, I picked 2006 signings since those guys played last year, so you can see where some of them are at. Now, Uribe makes $4.5 million this year. Hall makes $1.75 million. Pablo Ozuna makes $1.05 million. Mike MacDougal makes $1.95 million. Crede gets $5.1 million. The league minimum is $390K. If we dump Uribe for a prospect and replace him with Alexei Ramirez we save the whole $4.5 there. If we dump Hall for a nobody prospect and replace him with Lucy we save $1.36 million. If we trade Pablo for next to nothing and replace his legs with Jerry Owens' while adding Anderson as the back-up OF, we save $0.66 million. Dump MacDougal, sub in Wassermann, and you get a better righty specialist for $1.56 million less. Start Fields then send Crede to whoever for another non-roster prospect and you save that whole $5.1 million. In total that would be a savings of $13.18 million. Now another point is the draft. The Sox pick 8th this year. The largest bonus given to any first rounder picked 8th or lower last year was $3.58 million for Porcello (thanks, Kenny). Poreda was picked up at $1.2 million, and it's funny because if you go to this site, there were only four teams that signed a player BELOW recommended slot (Rockies, Reds, Twins, Sox). I guess maybe MLB isn't as anal about going over slot as we've heard? Porcello's contract itself was worth $7.29 million, but that is another story since it is a 4 year major league contract and he could be starting in the big leagues by 2009. Poreda may not have a major league contract, but he doesn't have a breaking ball either, so I don't know how one would defend that pick over Porcello. In terms of bonuses, Poreda was $2.38 million cheaper. So let's think about this: if we were to dump some dead weight and slightly weaken our bench, we could save somewhere around that $13.18 million. If we used that to spend an additional $2.38 million on the first round of the draft we'd have $10.8 million left over for international FA and over-slot signing bonuses in the later rounds. How the f*** does this not make sense to the Sox? We splurge for just one f***ing year and we put our farm at least in the middle of the pack instead of at the bottom. I see no earthly reason why the Sox wouldn't want to do this, especially with Kenny at the helm. All Kenny does is f***ing trade prospects, so why not sign some of these mother f***ers and give yourself something to play with? We're not going to keep them anyway, so instead of pissing your money away on people who can't f***ing hit anyway, and instead of wasting your first rounder on safe picks and pitchers with no secondary stuff, draft and sign some kids with worlds of potential and then deal them for major league talent. That way when a Miguel Cabrera DOES become available, you don't look like a f***tard because your minor league system sucks when you could have made it stronger by spending wiser.

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Mar 1, 2008 -> 11:41 AM) I don't know that Laroche is all that. But they're definitely in a win-now mode, and it looks like they might have more interest in Inge. Inge to Dodgers? Seems more like they're in win-never mode. I mean I could see them going after a guy like Miguel Cabrera when he was available, or trying to sign ARod when he was a FA, or even trying to snag Troy Glaus, Scott Rolen, or Eric Chavez for next to nothing, but Brandon Inge? WTF are they thinking? Their obsession with mediocre/slightly above average veterans on bad contracts is mind boggling. Hopefully we can enter the picture and offer up Contreras, MacDougal, and Crede for Kemp, Kershaw, Loney, Broxton, and Billingsley. That would be a great deal for the Dodgers based on the way they're going, but then again they probably wouldn't take Crede unless we stupidly extended him for another three years first. Hopefully for Dodger fans' sake the discussions are only an attempt to unload Pierre or something.

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Jan 29, 2008 -> 10:03 AM) This has to be a joke. What in the hell does Crazy Carl bring to the table anymore? Maybe KW is trying to put together a softball team in a beer league or something. Tell Carl to go hangout with the Dinosaurs, because he is about as usefull as one. That's a lie. Can you imagine a pteradactyl (sp?) flying around in CF? That would be awesome. He'd almost be as good as Erstad. And what about a tyrannosauras rex (sp?) in the batters box? Can you imagine that strikezone? There is no way opposing pitchers could get the ball over the plate and over the kneecaps consistently. He'd be a walk machine, like a super duper Jim Thome clone fifty times over. It doesn't matter though because dinosaurs didn't exist since they weren't in the Bible and the world is only a bit over 6,000 years old. Anyone who says otherwise is possessed by a demon sent by Satan himself to trick you.

QUOTE(JFields27 @ Feb 10, 2008 -> 11:10 AM) Chavez(90 games), Crosby(93), and Buck(82) are all coming off injured seasons .. and I add in Crosby cuz if I remember correctly LaRoche played SS coming up into the Dodgers system but they wanted him as a 3B also dont give Cust DH forsure, you have Dan Johnson to think about. If you want to give Barton 1B you have to give Johnson DH and put Cust in the OF and tell Sweeney to continue developing his skills(of course if Buck is injured then you have an OF of Cust-Gonzo-Sweeney with Emil Brown(FA signing) and Todd Linden taking starts away from anyone of those 3 on certain days) and if i remember correctly Barton can play catcher(and now looking at it he was an all-star C in the low parts of the minors) but they have Suzuki so i suppose C-1B-DH is locked up with those Suzuki-Barton-Johnson) It sounds like Johnson is going to be more of a role player for them. They seem to be very excited about Barton and you can't mess around with Cust after what he did last year. Johnson will probably work at 1B and DH until he's traded. Crosby and Chavez would probably be gone already if the A's could dump them off on someone. I think Beane has also said that Brown and Buck will be everyday starters in the OF, so that probably opens up a Sweeney/Gonzalez battle for a third OF opening. It doesn't seem like Beane wants to just throw these guys into the fire right away and views both Gonzalez and Sweeney as needing more development. Of course anything can happen in ST. Anyway, I just can't see them getting a 3B that is ready now with Chavez still on the books through 2010 ($11mil in '08 and '09, $12mil in 2010 with a team option for 2011). It would be quite a feat if Beane could just dump that on somebody for nothing. Damn, that contract is horrible. Edit: I mentioned the Dodgers possibly taking on Chavez's salary as a means to justify the package for Blanton. That's a package even we could beat easily IMO. Would anyone do something like Chavez + Blanton for Fields, Floyd and Shelby?

QUOTE(JFields27 @ Feb 10, 2008 -> 10:23 AM) If the Dodgers trade Either, LaRoche, and a spect to get Blanton from the A's their interest in Crede would skyrocket I dunno, that seems like a pretty weak package for Blanton depending on who the spect is. If those are the names indeed being discussed then maybe it's because the Dodgers would take on Eric Chavez's contract as well. Also, you'd have to think that the A's wouldn't want an MLB-ready 3B when they have Chavez up and 1B, DH, and LF all taken (Barton, Cust, Buck). Of course one would have to wonder what the Dodgers would do with Nomah, but I guess they'd keep him (as if they'd have a choice). The Dodgers seem to love stockpiling mediocre veterans, overpaid starting pitchers and position players, and guys who were once All-Stars but now suck.

Jonathan Sanchez would be a nice pickup, but even that might be a bit of a stretch. The Phillies just got Feliz, which pretty much leaves SF, LAA, and the BrewCrew as possible targets. The Angels and Brewers would do fine without Joe, so I doubt they'd give up too much for him. If SF is the only realistic destination left, they are going to give up as little as possible. Unless the Sox really want to start Josh in Charlotte and deal Crede at the break, they don't have much choice other than to take whatever SF is offering. SF isn't a contender; they're the fifth-best team in their division and are not desperate to win now. They know who Joe's agent is and realize he's likely to test the market if he has a good year. SF is probably interested in draft picks or whatever Joe might bring them in a mid-season trade if he's healthy, as well as the outside chance at extending him to a somewhat reasonable contract if he's working properly. Also, the Sox might not seriously contend this year anyway, and they might be best off just ridding themselves of Joe's contract and letting Fields continue to develop at the major league level. It's possible that if there are no good offers for Joe they just send him out for basically nothing, deciding that Josh's development is more important to the future of the team than the midlevel prospect or project or two that they might get around the break would be.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Jan 20, 2008 -> 02:19 PM) yep, cheap with potential. Think of the marketing These guys are Cheap! They *may* be All-Stars ~~ Stay Tuned! You Want All-Stars? Buy a Pair of Converse! It's going to be a great day in baseball when nobody will sign a develped player. It will be a bunch of AAAA guys running around. It'll be a sad day when our organization would rather toss a truckload of money at a veteran in the last year of his contract who is coming off major back surgery than play a stud prospect with 40HR potential. Actually, nevermind. Any chance we can send Quentin to Triple A and sign Erstad to play the OF in his place? That would be a good move. He plays good D when he's working.

QUOTE(whitesox1976 @ Jan 19, 2008 -> 10:06 PM) I would probably go with 1. Cabrera ss 2. Swisher cf 3. Thome dh 4. PK 1b 5. Dye rf 6. Fields/Crede 3B 7. AJP c 8. Quentin lf 9. Richar 2b Although I would have a tough time deciding on either Fields or Crede at 3B. That's a pretty potent lineup. s***, we could get 240-250 bombs out of that starting lineup alone. Let's all pray for the pitching staff.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 18, 2008 -> 01:46 PM) The specific types of players we could get for Crede in ST if he were completely healthy? I think we might get something similar to what we got for Mack and Iguchi last year. Some A level relief pitcher with a 1/50 shot at making the big leagues. Because even if we're convinced Joe is completely healthy, he's still owed $5 million, he's still a FA at the end of the year which means he's a 1 year stop gap at best, and he's coming off a surgery where no one knows how long his back will actually hold up. As far as any other team is concerned, he might well play ST, play the first game of the year, throw his back out again, and have his career be over. We might, if we were lucky, be able to get something similar to what we did with Borchard...find a team that's about to lose a guy who's out of options and trade for that guy. I think you're really undervaluing him. The reason Mack and Iguchi weren't worth anything is because both were basically going to be backups with contracts similar to starters, they only had a half year left (except for Mack who had an option which SD had to buyout IIRC), and neither brought compensation. Crede at his position is much better than either of those guys, and he's at a very reasonable price if he's healthy. He can still qualify for compensation, so the Sox should get something decent for him. We're not getting a stud, but we might be able to luck into another Gio or something, i.e. a young prospect with upside coming off a bad year, and a bench player or something. I still like the idea of some kind of Crede-for-Willits or Santana swap, or something like that. The Angels are good trading partners for Crede. What could SF or PHI offer, and who else would be out there? Edit: Of course, this is all assuming Crede is healthy in ST. If he's not, we'll be dumping him for nothing AND paying part of his salary or taking on another bad contract in return.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 15, 2008 -> 07:35 PM) Ive done the puking in the toilet, crapping in the pants combo. Ah, but have you ever crapped your pants driving home and then had to pull over to wipe your ass with empty Burger King bags all the while hoping a cop wouldn't drive by?

^Ugh. I'm done arguing with you. Have a nice day.

^I strongly disagree with everything here. Quick points: -if KW could dump Uribe for nothing he would. Uribe is here because KW couldn't get a SS quick enough so he re-signed Juan. He's HERE BECAUSE WE CAN"T MOVE HIM. -If you don't have strong SP you do not win in the American League. As far as making reference to 2005, El Duque and McCarthy gave us a pretty strong 5th starter tandem, quite possibly if not probably better than what we'll get this year from any spots in our rotation 3-5. Your comment about 4 man rotations shows how little you know. This is a different era of baseball. -It sounds like you think that the Sox want something of value for Contreras. You think the salary is less of a factor in his being untradable than his age and declining skills. You are again trying to split apart one idea and make it into two seperate things. Let's pretend Jose was a FA after last year. Someone would pick him and start him. David Wells has been around how long now? Someone would take him, declining skills, poor 2007 season, age and all. But no one takes him for $20 million over the next two years. What does that tell you? -Kyle Lohse hasn't signed because his agent has been pushing for him to get paid like he's a consistent, workhorse #3 starter. He's not. He's a five on a decent team and a 4 on a mediocre to bad team. He'll get paid, and he'll get paid tons of money. Just watch. Had his demands been more reasonable, say 3 years/$21 million, he would have signed long ago, and that is still waaaay too much for Lohse. -Yes the Yankees and Red Sox think about the consequences but in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MANNER, i.e. the $55 million Boston spent to TALK to Matsuzaka, all the money the Yanks have pissed away on Wright, Pavano, Igawa, Giambi, etc., the BlowSox RETARDED Julio Lugo signing, and the list goes on and on. Sorry, but that is reckless spending. If you don't think so you're on crack. BTW, check out their ticket prices, parking prices, etc. There comes a point where reckless spending HURTS THE FANS. -Maybe ARod has a better OPS+. Wow, so what? I'll take Josh Fields at the minimum, Konerko at what $12mil, Dye at $11mil, and Linebrink at $4mil over ARod's salary and a bunch of worthless garbage around him. And a mentioned the added revenue a player like ARod would provide in certain areas, but Sox fans care more about winning than names. If ARod takes up 1/4 of the payroll alone then the team around him will very likely suck, and if that is the case, whatever amount the Sox would gain in say merchandise sales would surely be offset by losses in gate and concession. KW/JR etc. get a lot of criticism from Sox fans, and I'm one of them, but I think these guys know a lot more about building a team than you think. They could have made a serious play at ARod and may have even possibly gotten him without giving up any talent OR a first round draft pick. Yet, like at least 27 other teams, they took a pass on the best player in baseball. Hmmm, I wonder why? -Yes, you are right about one thing: the Tigers did give up a ton of talent for Cabrera, BUT on the flip side of it, they have been a POS team for many, many years and now that their fans have been excited for a couple years they feel the need to go all out, and they have the owner's support. This move will likely hurt them considerably if Cabrera does not extend his contract at a reasonable rate. Besides, the Tigers will have a payroll in the $130 million range. That's a lot more than we have, and also, Miguel is arb eligible. He's not getting paid like Miguel. The Tigers could have had a shot at ARod too for free, but again, they passed. Hmm.... -Yes the Rangers were bad because poor allocation of funds, i.e. spending huge on a few players and having nothing left for the rest of the team. I'm not going to debate this with you. You are wrong. -Your last point about Jordan is utter nonsense. Funny, because you admit to it (how basketball with 5 starters on the floor and a couple key bench players is a stupid comparison to baseball with 5 SP, 8 positions in the AL with a DH, a bullpen, and THEN a bench) but then you say it's valid. What? -About Santana, it again depends on payroll. Why is that so hard to understand? I'm not making this up as I go, you know. How come the only suitors for Johan are two New York teams, the Red Sox, and MAYBE the LA Dodgers? Hmmm..... methinks if other teams thought they could afford to toss something like 7 years/$140 million his way they would have no trouble surrendering a few 'spects to make a deal for the best pitcher in baseball. And yes, that would be a mistake. If we had a serious contender and we could get him for say 4 years/$80 million with a PROMISE to hike the payroll accordingly it would be a good move, but that isn't going to happen.

BTW, how the f*** does Nevin Griffith not make this list? Methinks Rogers either farts out his mouth or he really doesn't know his head from his ass.

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 01:50 PM) Is anybody a subscriber and able to summarize anything interesting from the chat with Phil Rogers? I think Phil Rogers should subscribe to SoxTalk and read Bureau's posts, or anyone else's for that matter. Among other things, how could anyone possibly rank Getz ahead of Shelby? Nothing against Getz, but have I missed something? Does Shelby suck ass and look to top out as a AAAA player or what?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 12:53 PM) Odds are one of Contreras, Danks, or Floyd won't be pitching that well, and you could justify them being replaced. If they are all three pitching well, we are probably at the top of the division, and then you can justify not making any changes. If the Sox are in serious contention without Colon then you probably wouldn't want to make significant changes as you say. If the back end of our rotation sucks, then we suck and we're going nowhere in the division. If that is the case, it is much better to go with one of Broadway/Egbert, or even Nick Masset. If we're going to suck, we should at least suck with young players who have some kind of chance to learn at the MLB level and help us in the future. Colon makes absolutely no sense for this team unless we acquire another better, more reliable SP. If we had a reliable #3 starter, like say Jon Garland for instance, we would have a solid group 1-3 with two more veterans penciled in at the bottom and our young pitchers representing depth. It's still Riske to have to rely on two of Colon/Contreras/Danks/Floyd/Egbert/Broadway turning out as solid #4 and #5 starters, especially in our division where there is minimal if any room for error, but it's a lot better than relying on three of those guys doing the job.

QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 01:50 AM) Juan Uribe is still on this team because he's been absolutely awful offensively for a few years now, not because he makes 4.5 million dollars a year. The shortstop position has become much more valuable as an offensive position in baseball in the past decade or so. Also, Jose Contreras is still here because we have no chance to compete without a semi-reliable 3rd starter. Plus, Contreras HAS been bad. You think other teams haven't noticed this? They're not going to offer us anything anywhere NEAR valuable for him. Uribe is still on the team because KW didn't pull off the Garland-for-Cabrera swap before the arbitration deadline. That's the only reason. Contreras is still with the team for the same reason that he went unclaimed when put on waivers last summer. Your comment about not having a chance to compete without a semi-reliable fifth starter makes me wonder if you started watching the Sox in 2005. If you don't have a semi-reliable FIFTH starter you don't have a chance to compete (unless you play in the NL Central). Our 3-5 is not reliable at all. Don't you think KW would rather give Egbert or Broadway a shot in the rotation over Contreras to see what they have? You're not buying his lines to the media are you? QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 01:50 AM) Whether Contreras was making league minimum or his current salary, no one would want him unless he was good. ^I can't believe you said this in a thread about Kyle Lohse. QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 01:50 AM) How does flexibility affect the product we see on the field, though? Unless you are a Yankees or BlowSox fan, you have always seen flexibility affect the product. It's the reason we never spend an assload of money on free agents. It's the reason our team doesn't look like the two other teams mentioned. It is impossible to run a successful franchise without it unless you have bottomless pockets. QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 01:50 AM) Also, doesn't flexibility also apply to non-monetary values, such as player age, the possibility that said player will get better / stay the same, and the number of years we control said player? I think that in the view of the fans, these variables are far more important than how much a player makes. Any fan smart enough to recognize the trend a player is on and the trend he is projected to take will most likely take the salary of said player into appropriate consideration. QUOTE(almagest @ Jan 14, 2008 -> 01:50 AM) In the long run, I guess what I'm trying to say is we shouldn't be looking at not signing Torii Hunter (for example) as a good move because the Sox saved $18 million a year. We should look at it as a good move because we don't have to watch a career .793 OPS player regress to that level, then decline further both offensively and defensively for the next 5 years. Likewise, we shouldn't look at obtaining Swisher as a good move because he's much cheaper. We should look at it as a good move because we obtained a player who's entering the prime of his career, is under our control for 4 years, and projects to easily put up an OPS over .850 during this time. Make sense? It's one thing (value = performance in relation to salary) and when you try to break it up into two seperate things (performance independant of salary) you completely miss the point of value. Outside of payroll monsters like the Yanks and BlowSox, you cannot construct a successful franchise without paying attention to the value of each player. Players with good value can help a team in several ways, be it through performance on the field or through trades that strengthen other areas within an organization, whereas poorly valued or overvalued players will hurt a team in at least in one area. It's like this: you talk about only concerning yourself with performance on the field. ARod is one of the best players in baseball history, and he's much better than Josh Fields in every aspect of the game. However, Josh Fields makes league minimum while ARod makes $30 million per year or so. You can factor in the possibility of ARod leading to higher attendance, an increase in merchandise sales and other stuff like more lucrative television and radio contracts, but the fact is, given our payroll, ARod would only hamstring our club. We couldn't afford to pay that much to one player without raising the payroll to account for it, and unless the payroll was raised, we would have to take money out of other areas to make up a team. ARod is a legend, but it is very hard for teams with around a $100 million payroll or less to to devote that much money to one player and still run out another 24 players. That's why there were only about three out of thirty teams, and maybe just one really, trying to get him this offseason. In video game land or in the minds of an average fan, ARod would be more valuable to the Sox than Fields, but in reality, Fields is the more valuable player to us. For proof of this, look no further than Texas. How long did the contracts to ARod and Chan Ho Park among others set that organization back? I know you're trying to say what "fans" should care about, but I think you forget this is a message board for diehard Sox fans. You won't find many casual fans ignorant of the economics of baseball in such a place.

QUOTE(striker62704 @ Jan 13, 2008 -> 06:28 PM) I'm bored, so how about this: Crede to LAA for Willits & Santana Willits, Santana, Uribe, Richar, Danks, Haegar, Aardsma to Baltimore for Bedard and Roberts Ahh, the old 670 The Score "I'll-give-you-all-the-food-in-my-trashcan-if-you-give-me-the-steak-in-your-fridge" trade idea. Danks and Santana have real upside, but both have a lot of work to do. Richar and Willits could be everyday players. Uribe is a bad contract while Haeger and Aardsma combined would probably be required just to convince the Orioles into taking on his contract. You don't get one of the top leadoff hitters in the game and a lefty ace for a couple back of the rotation starters, two decent but unspectacular position players, and a bunch of trash - nothing against Haeger, but if any team wanted him enough to give up a halfway decent A ball spect, he'd be gone by now because he is so far down the depth chart. For us, I'd like to trade Crede for Willits or Santana straight up, but I think he would have to have a nice, healthy ST to pull that off.

QUOTE(Soxfest @ Jan 13, 2008 -> 05:23 PM) No to Loshe he is not an upgrade of any kind. He would put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us.