Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 17, 2010 -> 09:28 AM) If you are a peeping tom, make sure the house you pick is not occupied by an MMA fighter http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/c...0,3600046.story Okay, so overall, what is the opinion here on the UFC brand being synonymous with MMA? Is it good, bad, something else? In this case it might be a good thing, because it's a story that shows MMA in a positive light and kind of promotes the UFC at the same time, but in other cases, like that kid who stabbed his friend in a "UFC" fight, it hurts. Personally I don't like it, but I don't know if this stuff hurts the company overall.

Just wondering, but where are all these Overeem ballsuckers coming from? He is what he is. I haven't even bothered reading anything on any MMA boards because on the UG theres like a thousand threads about how Fedor is scared and Overeem's better than Brock, yadda yadda yadda. Everyone and their mother knew Overeem-Rogers was going to be a short night for one of them, and it was Overeem who dominated. I mean I like the guy, and he's exciting, and he's legit, but what did he do that makes anyone in the world think he can hang with the most elite? I really didn't see anything to be honest. I saw a guy who put Brett Rogers in trouble and then Rogers couldn't defend. And while Rogers is a legit opponent, I really really really really doubt that there are only a handful of guys in the world who could make Brett Rogers look that bad. I think there are at least 5 in the UFC alone, and Strikeforce also has a couple. And who knows elsewhere. My main impressions on that show though were that Jacare continues to look like a beast athletically and that AA really needs to cut the s*** and get back with Freddy Roach because he didn't look like a Mixed Martial Artist and he damn sure didn't look like a boxer either. AA couldn't have beaten Kimbo that night.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ May 17, 2010 -> 04:39 PM) This team would never get on-base. "Guys, go up there and swing at EVERYTHING." "What if i want to take a pitch, AJ? You know, work an at-bat?" "Then i'll punch you in the f***ing face, Nix. What do you think? Holy crap, man. You're lucky i let you out of your cage. Stop pushing your luck. And go out there and swing like a man, p****." What the hell is with the Nix love all the time? He sucks. He's a bench player walking a very fine line and who will probably end up a AAAA player within the next year or two because he can't make enough contact and he's often a mental midget on defense, despite what all those metrics might say. He's the type of player who is constantly on the bubble, and barring a perfect storm scenario involving an injury to a starter and a period of strong individual play, will never ever ever make it as anything other than bench fodder. And funny how you talk s*** about AJ...

QUOTE (docsox24 @ May 17, 2010 -> 09:11 PM) interesting, i think jones has very little trade value. i expect that he will end up hitting about .240 on the year Go look up Andruw's stats on baseball-reference. Andruw hitting in the mid-200's isn't necessarily a bad thing at all.

The board is going nuts with this trade everyone crap. Anyone who believes Tyler Flowers will as good as AJ Pierzynski has his head in the clouds, and that's the best case scenario. Anyone who believes Buerhle can/will be replaced is even loonier. We have been playing like crap because KW listened to his psycho manager and decided to have an offseason with his head stuck down a toilet. Fix the problems and suddenly we're a better team. Unloading vets for a bunch of prospects is not a smart idea and it just makes us worse. You prospect lovers need to wake up and realize that most of the players out there you're salivating over aren't going to make it at all. The value of an AJ Pierzynski in ****real life***** on the baseball field is a thousand times greater than that of Tyroid Flowers. It's one thing to talk about selling high on someone like Freddy or Putz, or even the resurgent Andruw Jones, or dumping the future non-tender candidate Bobby Jenks, but the idea of dumping guys like Mark and AJ is nuts. And I'm not even going to mention dealing names like Gavin and Johnny Danks because that is just waaaay too stupid to even respond to. Anyone who thinks it would be a good idea to trade those guys is off his/her f***ing rocker and needs to abandon the season right now before he/she ends up going on an angry, stupid rampage. PS the saving money argument is pretty much null and void at this point considering the Sox have lied all offseason about what they had to spend. They bulls***ted their way through the DH/lefty bat discussions saying they were broke and then found Damon's offer apparently hanging on the money tree. Bulls***. The Sox aren't broke. The Sox made their own bed and now they have to sleep in it. The Sox had the seeds for a great f***ing 2010 ballclub last September and then one of the better General Managers in baseball suddenly forgot what his f***ing job was. The Sox pissed away the brilliant investments that were Jake Peavy and Alex Rios and now they have to deal with it. f*** this "saving money" s*** because you know it's a bunch of crap if you paid attention over the offseason. Hopefully the Sox wake up and get back to being a smart baseball team and Kenny realizes that he plays second fiddle ***to absolutely no one other than ownership**** and then takes this team back. I do trust in Kenny and have for a long time, but the dumbest move he has ever made in his entire career happened this offseason, and it was him allowing a manager too much input. He f***ing knew he needed offense and he let Ozzie talk him out of it. And no one is to blame for that other than Kenny. It's his fault, now he needs to fix it, and he needs to do it by coming up with a couple good players to fill a couple big holes, not blowing up a ballclub that has most of its necessary pieces in place. PS I'm still hoping I'm wrong on Teahen and Pierre, and I'll continue to rag on those acquisitions until they prove they don't suck. But they do, so whatever. I hope to God Jim Hendry is looking for a couple more s***ty ballplayers to give a lot of money to, because if he is, we've got a few he can have.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:33 PM) baseball and MMA are probably tied for me right now. Jason Brilz is replacing Forrest, 3-1 in the UFC, not exactly a top caliber opponent, but it's about 3 weeks out. UFC probably hopes Lil Nog looks spectacular in-front of a good PPV buy rate He should... I also see Etim vs. Lauzon is on tap. I'm a pretty big fan of Etim but unfortunately I think Lauzon will take that one via sub. Etim always reminds me of Denis Kang (in a good way) but he's going to be in trouble once that fight hits the ground.

For me, nothing beats the Sox in the playoffs. But since I'm a hardcore MMA fan, there a lot of fights that I consider big fights, and big fights interest me more than any regular season game in any other sport. So I put MMA ahead of everything else for that reason.

QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) I disagree with you in three basic areas... (1) You are obviously a huge Mark Buehrle fan. But I don't believe that your fondness for Mark is representative of the average Sox fan. Most Sox fans know that Mark's been pitching here for a while, he was a huge part of them winning a WS, and he's pitched some absolutely phenomenal games, but the Sox haven't won squat since they re-signed him three years ago and it seems unlikely that they're going to win again with him. He was part of a great team, but that era has come to an end. Seems unlikely? Every single year it's unlikely we win it all, and winning it all is really the only thing that matters. But just because it's unlikely doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And again, we will have to agree to disagree, but I think Sox fans care a lot more about Buehrle than you think. The only thing I can do is cite the outrage in 2007 over the idea of trading him, and the response from the fans as he pitched at home. I can't remember that kind of response for anyone else. QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) (2) I strongly disagree that trading Mark in the middle of a bad 2011 season would irritate the average fan that much more than keeping him on the roster through September and letting him walk as a FA. There may be organizational benefit one way or the other, depending on who Mark would agree to be traded to and what that team would be willing to give up. From the fan's perspective, the result is the same: The Sox don't make the playoffs. I just don't see the massive PR backlash that you're envisioning. Of course, trading Mark in the middle of a competitive 2011 season would be disasterous (see: Alvarez, Wilson), and I think that we agree there. Again, we'll agree to disagree, because I think trading Mark would piss the hell out of Sox fans just like the idea of it did in 2007. Letting him walk would still piss fans off, but the idea of him leaving for more years/money is a lot easier to digest than simply trading him off and not making an attempt to bring him back. And no, from the fans perspective I don't think it is as simple as you make it. I see the fans viewing Mark's departure as a negative on ownership and management, and I think it puts strong doubts in their heads with regards to the team's ability to compete in the near future. So it hurts in the heart and it hurts in the ticket sales department as well. QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) (3) Mark hasn't been a "great" pitcher for the duration of a full season since 2005. You can say what you want about the no-hitter and the perfect game, but his seasonal numbers since then have ranged from "very good" to "mediocre." Mark's also lost about 2 mph from his fastball since '05. Given all of that, I think it's unlikely that he has another 2001- or 2005-like year. I also think it's highly unlikely that he's a legit Cy Young candidate again. It is likely that he continues to post "really good" numbers for the next couple of years (120 ERA+, 1.25 WHIP, etc.), which is why I believe that he's a "really good" pitcher. But not a "great" pitcher. You have to look at what Mark does year after year, as well as the whole career picture, and then factor in league and park. Please, go ahead and make me a list of all the pitchers you would rather have than Mark Buehrle. That list can't be very long, and if it is, there's going to some real stretches in it. You don't just show up all of a sudden and throw up an ERA well under 4 in the AL and at the Cell while tossing 200+IP with a 1.27 WHIP. There are a ton of guys with better stuff, and a ton of guys who are younger and who people on this site would swear up and down are better, but the truth is, very few pitchers are capable of putting up Mark Buehrle-type numbers in the same place Mark Buehrle puts them up. That's just the truth. QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) I agree that Mark's 4/56 deal back in '07 was great for the time (especially considering what Zito got), but (1) the market has changed significantly since then, (2) Mark's numbers have declined somewhat since (in comparison to his previous contract), and (3) he'll be 33 with 2,500 innings on his arm in his first year or free agency. When you've already committed large sums to Peavy and Floyd, with the potential for another big-money deal with Danks, I don't see the point in investing more than 3/36 in Mark. Given what the Red Sox gave to Lackey (injury history) and what the Yankees gave to Burnett (overall Javy-ness) I would say Mark's deal is definitely a bargain still, and I would say that the market really hasn't changed much at all for the elite players in the game. I'd say the market changed for middle-of-the-road veterans, and for older players near the ends of their careers, and for players coming off of major injuries. But for pitchers like Mark, I don't think the market has changed much at all. Top-end SP will always be at a premium. It's funny how when pitchers with arm trouble can have a case made for them with age and stuff as the reasoning (Bedard, Harden, Sheets as examples) but then when there's a ton of innings it's something else. Isn't that a sign of durability? I argued this point last deadline over and over again about Halladay. Why is that inning total a bad thing? Is there a magic number where someone's arm is going to fall off or something? Because I don't see it. I see a durable guy who is a much safer bet than the majority of pitchers out there. Pitcher contracts are always a huge risk but you have to give them out. Mark is a guy who I'd feel comfortable giving an extension to. I haven't looked at the numbers or anything, but I think Mark's FB velocity could be the result of a lot more cutters, and the pitch f/x people or whoever just count cutters as regular old 4-seam fastballs. And I really don't care, because there are pitchers who throw in the upper-90's all over the place who get lit the f*** up. If Mark had trouble locating his change-up then I'd be worried. Throwing 85 or 86 isn't supposed to be a good thing as it is, but Mark makes it work. There are more than a couple pitchers in the HOF who didn't have great FB velocity so I don't see why it makes any difference given Mark's track record. As far as the point in investing money in Mark, why should that need to be explained? There is ALWAYS a point in investing in SP if you can afford it. Whether or not we can afford it will depend on how many fans are in the stadium when it comes time to work out that extension, and that all depends on what we do on the field. QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:09 PM) Just my opinion, and we can agree to disagree on it. For what it's worth, I hope that Mark goes off this year, rescues this sinking ship of a team, and makes me look like a fool. But I'm not betting on it. We'll have to agree to disagree on just about everything. And I definitely think it's far too early to look at midseason 2011. And I definitely do not think we're a sinking ship either.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2010 -> 05:06 PM) Wow, thanks for the love KHP, haha...I'm more acclimated to the opposite. Actually, I was suprised to see you arguing so vehemently here...and you're right about Buehrle, and 90% of the fanbase would agree with your general sentiments in this particular case. Notice I said "sentiments," that's part of the key, just like the post-2005 WS signing of Konerko (after handing the ball pridefully to JR), there's just something about watching the way Buehrle is with the ceremonial first pitch, the way he mentors the younger pitchers like Danks and Floyd, the constant smile on his face, the "rain delay/tarp" antics...he's just White Sox baseball, he represents that "blue collar" or underdog element all fans appreciate, being taken for granted, drafted so low, having to prove the scouts and doubters (who preferred Garland, Kip Wells, Danny Wright, Ginter, even Josh Fogg or Jim Parque) wrong every step of the way and seeming to do it with a smirk on his face the whole time. His bulldog mentality...holding the Astros down enough in freezing cold game to let us rally back, and, most specifically, the willingness to come in and try to save that extra inning game in HOU. I know those Master Card commercials are a cliche, but the White Sox really should do one for Mark specifically where they throw together a montage of his highlights and put "priceless" at the end. Maybe the Sox won't do it, but his agent should. Not that Mark would ever try to extort JR, it's not his style. We all felt in our "heart of hearts" that it was time to cut the cord with JD because of his deteriorating defense and unwillingness to DH and the fact we couldn't easily move him to 1B with Paulie already esconced there. Thome...not going to touch that one again, but TMK at-bats are almost becoming comical for their ineptitude these days. To the point where you don't even get upset anymore when he does something either non-productive, or, as is usually the case, counter-productive. I always argue vehemently for Mark. I do the same for AJ, but trading Mark will always be the #1 hot-button topic for me as long as he's here. It's just amazing to me why anyone would 1) want to trade him in the first place, and 2) think the payoff would be worth it. It's always borderline delusional to trade a player of that caliber and expect an equal or better replacement because it's such a rarity (Haren/Mulder example), and most often those trades turn out really bad (Johan Santana, the best in the game, nets the Twins an arb-eligible JJ Hardy). And I agree with everything you wrote there. The love is because I remember back when you posted on WSI and IIRC I think I left there not a long while after you did, and was happy to see you here. I think they banned you or something, I just remember thinking that was BS because you posted articles and stuff all the time. So I've been a Caulfield supporter ever since, you're a good poster and you always add something. Agree on JD and Thome. Sox fans will always love them, and if it comes to the point with Mark where he's not at the level he should be, then I think as a unit Sox fans will be able to let go much easier. But Mark is in his prime still and now is not the time for that.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2010 -> 04:41 PM) Lots of good points. I was thinking back to former Sox players and their circumstances when leaving the organization, and looking for parallels. There aren't really any. The closest people would be in "angry/upsetedness" level would have to be with the way Fisk was treated on the way out the door. Baines was the face of the franchise for 10 years, and might end up closer to the HOF than Mark (clearly the case if Mark left the game sooner rather than later), but never quite as beloved, and missing some of the 2005/WS glory, and he only played on one playoff team for the Sox as a prominent hitter, 1983, correct? Ventura in 1997/1998, walking to the Mets? Lance Johnson leaving? Nope. McDowell, admired by a lot, but not beloved. Durham/Ordonez/C-Lee/Valentin/Thomas....Thomas is the greatest hitter (along with KG Jr.) of his generation, a lot of people were PO'ed with KW for the treatment they perceived that Big Hurt was receiving from our FO, but that blew over quickly with the WS win. Then you have the current generation of Sox heroes, Rowand and Crede...we somehow survived their departures, but, once again, neither was the face of the franchise like Buehrle and Konerko for a generation. In the end, Sox fans understand the game of baseball...and they'll understand losing Konerko, AJ and Jenks is mostly about business and nothing personal directed towards those three guys. I think Mark continuing to pitch depends on how his arm/shoulder feels, what happens with Ozzie and KW over the next two seasons (Mark genuinely seems to like everyone in our front office, coaching staff and organization), and how competitive the ballclub is...my gut says there's a 75-80% chance he's here with the Sox in 2012. That said, I too would allocate money to Danks OVER Buehrle if I had to choose which one to keep...and which one is deserving of a long-term, multi-year deal at $13-17 million per year based on expected/predicted performance going forward. I agree with all of this. Edit: I just noticed I'm beyond 3,000 posts and apparently it happened a while ago. Didn't even know that. Maybe I need to step away for awhile. Edit #2: Caulfield is one of my favorite posters. Just had to say that.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ May 4, 2010 -> 04:11 PM) And the internet prize goes to this fellow.

BTW who here has MMA as his favorite sport? I grew up watching and playing baseball, and I'll always be a hardcore baseball lover, but I think MMA has overtaken it. Am I alone here?

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ May 3, 2010 -> 10:58 PM) Forrest off the 114 card against Lil' Nog... no replacement named yet, but they have about 3 weeks, hopefully a top guy can grab the opportunity. They should hold off for Vitor-Lil Nog since Sonnen gets Anderson next. Now obviously I know they won't do that since they're saving Vitor for Anderson, but still, I'd like to see it. I'd have to take Vitor though in that one.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ May 4, 2010 -> 03:49 PM) I don't need to reiterate Adrian talks, not to mention bring back up old threads, since we've had this discussion before. Some points I agree with, others I feel like you just don't get it. There is no secret we need another bat (Berkman looks better everyday) but right now, that won't happen this early. The Buehrle thing I do agree with however, and like I said, it will sting, but a winning product certainly helps. Well, I'm just happy we agree on one point then. And yes, Berkman would look good right now, but a lot of hitters would look good right now, and some of them I don't even want.

QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 03:51 PM) A half-season of Mark Buehrle saves us about $7M. I'm not advocating that route, but there is tangible financial benefit for dealing him in the middle of a bad season, just a few months before his contract expires. There is, and with anyone else on this team I could see that argument. But Mark has done things here that put him at a level above every other player on this team, and in this instance, that $7M saved isn't worth all the bad publicity and hurt feelings of diehard fans. In reality, sayings like, "the bottom line is all that matters" and "any publicity is good publicity" don't stand very long. QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 03:51 PM) I don't agree that trading Mark would be nearly the "s*** storm" that you think it will. This would not be the first time that the Sox traded a highly-successful, fan-favorite starting pitcher (see: McDowell, Jack), and I'm pretty sure that they'd do it again if they felt that the benefits outweighed the downside of upsetting a few overly-sentimental fans who are still clinging to 2005. I love Blackjack, but seriously, there's no comparison between the two. Blackjack got a Cy Young, but it's a lot easier to do that than set a MLB record for batters retired, bring home a WS ring, start an All-Star game, pick up a WS save, throw a no-no, throw a perfect game, win a gold glove, and pretty much serve as the face of the organization. No comparison. And I really, really do not think the Sox would trade Buehrle especially after what they witnessed in 2007, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that. QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 03:51 PM) If Mark actually wants to continue pitching past 2011, the question then becomes: Buehrle or Danks? Realistically, signing both to extensions makes little sense with Peavy and Floyd under contract through at least 2012 (both have 2013 options), Hudson nearly ready to pitch in the bigs, and a glaring lack of offensive talent that will almost certainly have to be addressed through free agency. The Sox can't afford a $50M starting rotation. If the Sox can convince Danks to sign a reasonable four- or five-year extension, I'd probably go with him. Mark will be 33 in his first year of free agency and will have about 2,500 innings on his arm. If Danks did walk and Mark was open to an extension, it would be nice to bring him back, but I don't think that he's a $14M/year pitcher anymore. And that's a problem because he already signed a deal that was WELL below what the FA market would've given him back in 2007. Asking him to re-sign for, say, 3/30 would almost be an insult. But it would be stupid for the Sox to give him a 3/45 deal when it appears highly unlikely that he's not going to have a 2005- or 2001-type season again. So I have a really difficult time seeing how Mark fits into the Sox's post-2011 plans. I think you're looking waaaaaaaaaaay too far ahead, even though it doesn't seem too far ahead. Let's see how we do this year. If we go far in the playoffs, and aside from the hate a lot of Sox and Bulls fans have for JR, it's pretty clear that JR wants to win, so extending them all may be a very real possibility. Check out the costs of the 2006 rotation and get back to me as far as the rotation costs. That was an expensive staff, and we had McCarthy who back then was a lot higher on the national scene rankings than Hudson is now. How is Mark not a $14M pitcher? I really don't want to have this discussion because I posted a bunch of stuff on pitcher contracts before when this came up. I've proven that Buehrle is on a bargain contract before and I don't feel like doing it again. Coming to the AL and pitching in the Cell, and putting up those numbers over that many innings gets you that kind of money. That's just the reality of it. Mark is actually cheap because he doesn't throw 95. If Mark put up the same ERA and IP and WHIP as a lefty with that health record while throwing 95 he'd be making $18M+ now guaranteed. I disagree completely that Mark won't have another great year. What makes you say that? How can you say that as a Sox fan who has watched him pitch here his entire career? It should be apparent that Mark is a cerebral lefty who knows how to pitch with limited stuff, and who is also a workhorse who can stay healthy all year, and who also is a big game pitcher who just so happened to no-hit and throw a perfecto against two of the toughest offenses in baseball to do those things against. It should be very clear just how great Mark is - notice I said great, not good or very good. Mark has been a great pitcher.

BTW, I for one don't think we're doomed at all. I think we have a very good team overall that could do some serious damage in the playoffs if we get there, but the problem is getting there. There are a couple players I will not mention because I've b****ed about them since they came here, but I genuinely believe that if we get a big bat to break up the righties in the middle and push one of these crappy players out of the picture, we will be able to kick some serious ass. So that's what I want to see. I do not in any way see our current situation as a fire sale situation. Paulie and Jones have their resurgences along with Rios being Rios just makes me that much more confident that if we make the right moves early we'll have a shot at getting to the playoffs.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ May 4, 2010 -> 03:22 PM) I've long said that Buehrle's trade value is very lessened on what he means for teams cause he isn't the "sexy" stuff pitcher and such. If he's ever traded, the return won't be ever as good as he would bring to the other club and the sox brass knows this. I actually agree with you on trading Buehrle cause it would sting me personally, who you went alittle too far (much like your Adrian love fest) with the b****ing the fan base for 20+ years. Frank was the only player I ever thought would do that to a fan base, but he being a FA perhaps helped lessen the blow from people I've talked to here. It will hurt sox fans alot, but WC is right, if a winning product is on the field, people will still come out and support. I guarantee you people would b**** for a very long time about trading Buehrle, but I don't think it'll ever happen so my guarantee really doesn't mean anything. About Adrian, it's the basic idea that winning in the Majors, winning in the playoffs, is what it is all about. Just look at the Phillies for the A#1 perfect example. They win the WS and it means they can give extensions to everyone they want, trade for Cliff Lee, trade for Halladay and extend him, etc. If that team doesn't win then they are in a very different position right now. If we traded the farm for Adrian now, then the picture you get right now when you think of the consequences in 2012-14 is not going to be anything like the real 2012-14 if we do our share of winning. Win first, then rebuild when you absolutely have to. There's a lot of love on the board for our AA and AAA guys and to be honest there's no one I have any faith in except Hudson and of the rest Viciedo is really the only one who intrigues me. Chances are the current crop isn't even enough to land Adrian, but if it is, it's a rarity for a player of that caliber to be available, so you just do it. If we win it all then nobody gives a s*** about the prospects we traded anymore.

QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2010 -> 02:58 PM) This is hyperbole. Sox fans aren't going to be happy if the Sox aren't competitive... period. If they're playing sub-.500 baseball next July, the difference between trading Mark 2/3 of the way through a lost season vs. letting Mark walk as a free agent two months later is minimal. I'll give you that point. But really, I was just talking to someone last week about Ventura walking. And Ventura isn't Buehrle. If we trade Mark it will turn out to be one of those moves that define the organization as cheap, petty, heartless, etc. for a long time to a lot of people. For your second point, let's look at this logically. What does 1/2 season of Mark Buehrle get us in trade? Remember in 2007 when Mark was on the verge of being traded? Remember the crowds chanting his name? Remember all the backlash? And remember the Boston talks involving Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden as the centerpieces since they wouldn't include Clay Buccholz? L-O-f***ing-L at trading a pitcher and a franchise piece like Mark and then the ensuing backlash for either of those players. Give me the draft picks and, from a PR standpoint, the peace of mind that comes with knowing Buehrle walked. I will bet almost anything that the Sox do not trade Buehrle. Actually, if anyone at all on this site wants to bet me, I will do a sig bet with anyone here that if the Sox trade Buehrle you can control my sig and avatar for as long as you see fit, no matter how long. And in return all I'd ask is that, when I win the bet, the loser of the bet write a 5-page discourse on how much Mark Buehrle means to the city of Chicago and the Sox organization as a whole. So if anyone wants to take me up on that bet let me know, because it's a cakewalk for me. Edit: Anyway, the point is, at least since I've been alive, we've never dealt anyone like Mark. We let Robin and Frank walk, that's it. But I really think trading Mark would be a s***storm, and because of that I don't hink it's going to happen, and I don't think the payoff would be worth it. The difference in value in terms of deadline deals for 1/2 seasons vs. the value of draft picks isn't necessarily that significant, and actually the draft picks could turn out better than anything we'd get in trade.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 4, 2010 -> 02:28 PM) Even though the Royals suck, that's very encouraging from Jake. I'll say what a lot of guys say about our players: "He'll be fine." I'd be nice to start being a bit more consistent and stringing good games together as a team. After an excellent, efficient win, can we do it again tonight? Or revert to crumminess? You can say that about Peavy because he's a Cy Young candidate every Opening Day. He's more than proven himself. If something happens to Peavy then Kenny, Rick Hahn, JR, everyone involved in that decision-making process, is 100% in the clear because that move was a complete no-brainer, and in that scenario you would then chalk the poor result up to "sometimes, s*** happens." No reason to worry about Peavy. Like you say, he'll be fine.

What a surprise, CardsTalk.com cronies talking about trading Buehrle again. Here's the reality check: 1) Mark's retirement is not a set-in-stone type of thing 2) Mark ALSO SAID that he didn't think he could deal with the pressure of playing for a hometown team - so the Cards thing isn't the slam-dunk you "Sox" fans think it is 3) Buehrle is *not* going to fetch us a bunch of top-100 prospects, or anything like that at all 4) In the end, when it's all said and done, what Mark would likely bring us in trade is a bunch of absolute f***ing garbage along with a useful-but-certainly-not-irreplaceable piece or two, despite how much some of the CardsTalk.com cronies will salivate and masturbate over these awesome prospects at the time of their arrival to the organization 5) To the more casual (and in many cases, truer) Sox fans, this is a total PR disaster 6) Mark may still decide to keep pitching - HIS OWN f***ING WIFE thinks he's full of s*** with the retirement talk - and if he does, he's at the Glavine pace right now. Do we REALLY want to dump that? 7) Dan Hudson, and all these other minor league pitchers, are unproven - not only in the American League, not only in the Cell, but in Major League Baseball period. You guys are f***ing crazy if you think the hole Buehrle's departure would open would be filled in short order. Anyone remember, I dunno, like, the majority of Sox pitching staffs since we've all been alive? Yeah. Like that. 8) This game isn't played on a PS2, an X-Box, whatever. It's easy to say "oh, trade so-and-so because then we can spend money on so-and-so." The reality is, there is no guarantee we will spend that money AT ALL, and if we do, there's always the chance we take on more Pierres and Linebrinks with it. Whoppee. And we're still not spending anything on the draft, so get that out of your thoughts. 9) The rebuilding factor. Just because we happened to hit the jackpot with Danks and Floyd doesn't mean it's going to happen again anytime soon. Look at how long it took us to put a winner out there after the strike. Then how long after the mirage 2000 season. I for one go absolutely nuts watching 2007-level Sox play, and for all you people who are so god damn excited for all these future Sox players, ask yourself honestly how excited you get when crappy teams get thrown out there. Because that's what happens when you trade players like Buehrle, you end up running garbage out there. Go check out the game threads after a loss where we played like s***, and then magnify that again. Go back and check out all the "Is (insert MiLB/MLB veteran reclamation project's name here) for real/the future/etc.?" type threads that pop up when we're running out garbage. It's not fun. Winning is fun, and trading Buehrle is only something an organization full of asshat losers would do. 10) Attendance. Yeah, dealing Buehrle is sure going to help there. I'm certain I'll get the retarded and recycled "Sox fans only care about the logos on the front of the jerseys, not the names on the backs of them" line in return, but the truth is, franchise players actually do matter to the major of the fans out there. Next time you're at the park, just take a walk around, find a few groups of stranger Sox fans, and then unveil your brilliant "Trade Buehrle!" plan to them. See what they think. And I'm sure I could go on. Trading Buehrle is the type of move that will have Sox fans b****ing for the next 20+ years. Let the motherf***er walk if he's going to and take the draft picks. And that's IF. For all we know, Mark will sign a 3/$36M extension or something of the sort at the end of his current deal, and then go on to be just as successful as he's been for us thus far right on through that next commitment.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 2, 2010 -> 04:30 PM) I guarantee you Pierre will play better. I hope you're right, but I'm expecting an average below .275, and OBP near .330 or below, zero power, and nothing but 0-fers when the lineup turns over with RISP. IMO Juan is playing in the wrong park and in the wrong league, and I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 2, 2010 -> 04:18 PM) No, it's mainly Pierre, Teahen (who hasn't been anywhere near as bad as you're making him), Beckham, CQ, AJ, 'Lexi, Peavy, Buehrle, Linebrink, Williams, ect. I have no idea why you're singling out Pierre and Teahen. You've somehow convinced yourself that what they're currently being paid is crippling the payroll. And of that list I see two bench players, a bunch of guys who are going to play better, one bad contract reliever, and a guy who will be in Charlotte by the end of the week. I'm counting on those two bench players playing like the bench players they are. The crippling the payroll part: go look at their contracts and see what we're paying them for the next 2-3 years. Bench players with minimal upsides getting paid like starters hurts flexibility a lot more than paying a legitimate superstar market value. If the difference between being able to afford Gonzalez and not being able to afford Gonzalez is the amount we're paying Pierre in 2011 or Teahen in 2011 or 2012, and if those players are playing at a level where we could replace or nearly replace them at the league minimum, then we're in a bad spot. Edit: And BTW, my point is about not continuing to do these things. Adrian would be cheap through 2011 so only Teahen's deal could potentially hurt us there, but the point was that those players I named (Pierre, Teahen, Linebrink) aren't movable, therefore they hurt flexibility much more than a talented player you could simply dump if you had to.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 2, 2010 -> 04:07 PM) I dunno man, Paulie and Andruw are performing well-above what can be expected of them right now...I mean Paulie is basically doing what we would expect from Adrian and our offense is still brutal right now. Once those two come down to earth a bit, adding a guy like Adrian wouldn't be a whole lot different than what we have going now, IMO. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have him, but one guy an offense does not make. We have two 1.1 OPS players right now, and we still can't score. Agree with this too, that Jones may be over his head (although he really really looks good) and Paulie will certainly come down. But I'm factoring in Alexei, Beckham, and AJ playing better too, which IMO they will. It's mainly Teahen and Pierre that makes us suck, and swapping out our worst offensive player in Pierre for an elite offensive LH dynamo kind of changes the picture around a bit, plus it hopefully creates a chain of events that has Teahen taking the pressure off and performing well out of the 9 hole.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 2, 2010 -> 03:55 PM) Unfortunately, it's going to be the starting point of negotiations in the contract for the other three players you listed. I agree, however what I guess I'm trying to say is that Howard would have been the one left to the last bidder, and that last bidder wouldn't have had to fork over $25M per. The Phillies overpaid, and really, I don't think Howard's deal is the main thing to consider. I think ARod's deal is going to set the market for Pujols, and then Pujols will set the market for everyone else. Howard should have been the 4th hottest girl at the party, not a market setter.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 2, 2010 -> 03:56 PM) This coming from the same guy that had an aneurysm that lasted 2 months when the great Brandon Allen was traded. lol. I was pissed because we got SoxTalk favorite Tony Pena in return. Arb-eligible middle relievers with pretty big control problems who can only pitch to one side of the plate aren't worth what we paid IMO, although admittedly Pena *does* have a lot more talent than he has shown.