Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 11, 2010 -> 12:29 AM) Yes we all know it doesn't work like that most of the time but I refuse to rule out a reversal. To do so would make rooting for the Sox meaningless. It would be nice to see Kenny go out and make a move to help us first. We need a 3B and some IF help in general. Ty Wigginton is making very little and shouldn't cost a bunch in trade even though he's really hitting. The O's are done and would be willing to listen for sure. Just a little move like that would show the players and fans we're not ready to give up just yet, and who knows, maybe something like that could go a long way.

Shogun is out against Rashad, and it's his knee again. He had surgery already. What a f***ing shame too.

They were probably fighting over who cares less.

You quit on this team before this team quit on you. You quit on this team back in December before these guys ever took the field. Then you sat around with your thumb up your ass watching this team play like garbage. If you just now decide to become active and start trading guys then I hope you get canned because you're a piece of crap. AJ is the only C we've had worth a damn since Fisk and if you move him now then I hope you and Tyler Flowers both rot. Yours truly, KHP

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 10:56 PM) And now the problem is that the talented core of this team is too small to "retool" around. Going into next year, our above-average players are going to be Rios, Danks, Thornton, and I'll go out on a limb and say that Peavy, Mark, and Santos will be solid. There's little evidence that Quentin and Alexei will be any better than average. Beckham and Floyd are question marks. Outside of that, you have a bunch of below-average players and not enough money to fill 1B, C, DH, one SP slot, closer, and setup man with average-to-above-average veterans. I'm sorry that Kenny dumped a ton of money into Peavy and Rios last season, because they're not going to have enough around them to help us win anything for at least two more years. I'd actually like to shop Santos around. Santos has been a revelation for us and may end up a top closer for the next 6 years for all we know, but he still is an out-of-options player who needs to continue developing at the Major League level, and if someone came along offering an extremely talented prospect who is close and has option years remaining, especially a position player or SP, I'd make that deal ASAP.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 09:40 AM) The problem is it is that exact core that is playing like s*** for the most part. Yep. But we'd look like a bunch of absolute morons selling low on guys like Floyd, Quentin, Alexei, Beckham, etc. Quentin is the only one to really consider IMO, but even then, we're better off trying to get him going and then trying to get him to sign something reasonable in arb. The last thing we need to do is trade a 2011 30HR+ .380+ OBP stud to the Yankees, or anywhere else for that matter.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 06:48 PM) Thunderbolt, you are preaching a philosophy that would ruin a club in terms of drafting. Drafting for need in the later rounds? C'mon! The best drafting teams pick the best available, end of story. They'll figure out the details later, but if you always of talent in the system those details are good ones to have. What teams do this? Everyone drafts for need at some point. And just because Team X happens to land a player in the 18th round who was slotted top-5 and then gets to keep him because of a large bonus doesn't mean that said team had been going BPA all the way up to that point. All drafts are full of easy signs/overdrafts/areas-of-weakness players, etc.

Kenny needs to be a GM and Ozzie needs to be a manager. That's it. If Kenny gives Ozzie a team that Kenny believes will make a run at the pennant then everyone's in a good situation. As for Guillen's family, who cares? People need to leave Oney alone already. He's not part of the organization and regardless what he says or does, neither the Sox FO nor Ozzie himself should ever be held responsible for explaining the actions of a young adult. The thing is, it appears Cowley and Oney are butt buddies and because of that everyone gets to hear this s***. But none of this should matter, and if the Sox were winning, I doubt any of it would. This is all only an issue because Kenny let Ozzie do his job which put Ozzie in a position where he would be forced to showcase the *worst* qualities he has as a manager instead of the better ones. Ozzie, with a good team, can do a great job managing a pitching staff, motivating players, and taking pressure off of players. On a horses*** team he's just a bad situational manager who is obsessed with impossible player archetypes.

I said before the season that Rios was going to be Walker's big project. It turns out that not only is Alex our best player, but he's one of the better position players all-around in the league. IMO Walker is fine, even though he's going to look even worse once Kenny starts shipping guys out.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 8, 2010 -> 12:38 PM) Even for a catcher, A.J. is not that good of a hitter. His lack of patience makes him a mediocre hitter at best. Where do you all you AJ haters come up with this garbage? Look at the stats before saying that crap. Year ----------- AJ's Line ------------ MLB Avg As C ------------- AJ's Difference 2001 --- .289/.322/.441/.763 ----- .251/.313/.393/.706 ----- +.038/+.009/+.048/+.057 2002 --- .300/.334/.439/.773 ----- .253/.315/.383/.698 ----- +.047/+.019/+.062/+.075 2003 --- .312/.360/.464/.824 ----- .258/.320/.402/.723 ----- +.054/+.040/+.007/+.101 2004 --- .272/.319/.410/.729 ----- .261/.324/.403/.728 ----- +.011/ -.005/+.007/+.001 2005 --- .257/.308/.420/.728 ----- .253/.315/.390/.705 ----- +.004/ -.007/+.030/+.023 2006 --- .295/.333/.436/.769 ----- .269/.329/.416/.745 ----- +.026/+.004/+.020/+.024 2007 --- .263/.309/.403/.712 ----- .256/.318/.394/.713 ----- +.007/ -.009/+.009/+.057 2008 --- .281/.312/.416/.728 ----- .257/.325/.390/.715 ----- +.038/+.009/+.048/ -.001 2009 --- .300/.331/.425/.755 ----- .254/.321/.396/.717 ----- +.046/+.010/+.029/+.038 2010 --- .218/.257/.328/.584 ----- .257/.335/.397/.732 ----- -.039/ -.078/ -.069/ -.148 Isn't being that far above league average in every single category year after year with only a few exceptions pretty much the definition of a good hitter? It's better than good actually, IMO. Especially for a LH C who can handle a pitching staff. The only bad year AJ has ever had offensively for a catcher is this one, but his career and his monthly splits so far suggest a turn around: April .196/.229/.200/.429 May .241/.275/.391/.666 June .273/.273/.455/.727 And April is actually the worst month of his career statistically, so while it may be a bit surprising to see him hit that low in April, it's not surprising to see him struggle in April. Anyone who thinks Tyler Flowers of the .215 Charlotte batting average and who has Ked in 23.4% of his MiLB PA (this percentage is also rising with level - 16.6% in A, 19.6% in A+, 24.8% last year with 24% in AA and now 34.2% this year in AAA) will somehow equal or surpass the career of AJ Pierzynski anytime in the near future just because he takes walks and has some power (LOL) is at best hoping for a miracle. MLB veterans aren't going to mess around at all with him and if he can't hit the ball off junkballers and pitchers like Carlos Torres who survive off of some itty bitty titty slider-looking thing and some command of a straight FB then he's going to get eaten alive in the Majors. Tyler Flowers isn't Ryan Howard, he isn't Ryan Braun, he's IMO just another future bust at C, and instead of dealing AJ and pretending he sucks we need to celebrate AJ for his contributions to the organization with a 2 year extension at a reasonable value, and then we need to put Tyroid on the block.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:31 PM) Regular Sox fans are not the sharpest tools in the shed though... And while there might be some backlash for a few weeks, this is the perfect season to unload the fan favorites. The casual fans will be giving up on the team anyways and spending their money elsewhere. Well yeah, it's always easier to trade the better players during seasons that are already in the gutter. But realistically, Mark makes a lot of money, he has a NTC (meaning that even if the casuals aren't paying attention, they will be when they read the articles about the Sox trying to get Mark to waive a NTC, which probably happens) and we're very, very, very likely to lose that trade completely. We'd probably get nothing at all for Mark worth a s***, and our big win would be not having to pay him $14M in 2011. And how much of a win is that really? Peavy's contract is far worse, and if we're really that worried about Mark's health, we can shut him down and have him prepare for 2011. And I'd actually rather have Mark on shelf with his $14M all year in 2011 if the choice were that or a 4-5 year deal for Carl Crawford, which is probably where a lot of fans think the Sox should throw that money. It just seems like there are way too many experts here willing to completely write Mark off when he's done nothing but show he's a greatly dependable player. And it's because of his lack of stuff, which happens every single time he has a stretch where he struggles, and I know you've seen it too since you're here on this board. Because Peavy throws harder and has nastier offspeed stuff he's more likely to turn it around than Mark, despite Mark's entire career. And then there are those who say Mark has lost too much off his fastball, too much this, too much that. Well, the Sox have Hermie if anything is wrong physically, and they have Coop if anything is wrong mechanically, and Buerhle is all there mentally, so I'll just go ahead and put my faith in Mark himself, his history, and the Sox staff, rather than a bunch of zit-faced little f***ers over there at Fangraphs.

I just mentioned this in another thread, but who knows if the return for Paulie (and Jenks as well) is even Kenny's call? Maybe JR has taken too big of a hit to the wallet and he just wants as much cash gone as possible. If so I'm not sure we'll get a lot for either Paulie or Jenks, and our best players would probably come from Freddy, Jones, and Putz.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:12 PM) They're not at that level already with Buehrle? If anything, an outing like Sunday's makes it easier to unload him. That's why I said aside from some of the internet fans. As for the regular Sox fans, I don't think they're at that point yet. Not even close.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:14 PM) This. What about making our bench spots more of a pipline with the minor league guys. I'm sick of wasting resources on old cast-off trash, guys past their primes. Why can't we give some Knights guys at-bats ever? Never, unless it's call-up season. If it was more fluid, guys up here would start worrying about their jobs and might play harder. Who knows. I'd trade AJ though; he just doesn't care anymore. I agree and I b**** about this every year. You don't need to spend a bunch of money on a bench when there are always guys out there willing to work for the minimum. As far as Charlotte guys I wouldn't bring up a prospect we think has a future as a starter, but nothing wrong with trying out a Retherford or Gartrell every now and then. If he sucks, big whoop. Send him down. If you need a roster spot, big whoop, DFA him. Who cares.

QUOTE (soxfan890 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:13 PM) IF I'M KENNY RIGHT NOW... 1. Get rid of Ozzie and Walker (keep Coop and Cora). I'm not a person to pin player struggles on coaches but enough is enough. This is a business, put friendships aside and make the right move Kenny. 2. If PK, AJP, Jenks have any return value/interest.. TRADE THEM 3. Send Beckham to AAA. Let him play consistently and regain his confidence. 4. Bring up and play some of these younger guys (Flowers, Morel, Danks, Hudson). And what makes you think any of those guys sans Hudson can play in the Major Leagues right now? Flowers and D2 are buckets of crap in Charlotte at this point. What do you think veteran MLB pitchers would do to their confidence? Everyone should know that if vets are tried, other than Hudson, it's very likely we see Lillibridge, Nix, Vizquel, Kotsay, Castro, Lucy, etc. out there every day. It's waaaay more likely than people realize.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 10:57 PM) Of all of the teams that might trade for starting pitching, the Cards have to be one of the least likely to splurge on something like $25 million for Mark Buehrle. Yeah, they just made the Holliday deal and they've got to extend Pujols. Carpenter is making bank too, and they're still paying Kyle Lohse all that money for a long time.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 7, 2010 -> 11:06 PM) The radical fringe of the internet is different from other brands of fans. Remember that. If they trade Mark, I'd hope they could get a good deal, but after our most recent round of deals I have no more confidence In KW and Oz's judge of talent. I hope he stays. But I'd hope if we deal him we get a lot back. He's going to pitch well again. You can bank that (unless he gets hurt). And I think if Mark were traded it would just be a salary dump that would piss off most of the non-SoxTalk/WSI/internet fans pretty severely. And then let's say the Hawks win the Cup and LBJ comes to Chicago. Welcome back, 1998 Chicago White Sox. We missed you.

I've gone on at length many times about trading AJ and Mark, and I just do not want to see that happen. Floyd needs to stay because he can be expected to turn it around. Same with Peavy. Both have had success and both are very talented. No reason to trade Rios because we've finally got a CF solution. Other than that... 1. Paulie - Should be gone for the best available package. Whether the Sox eat salary and ask for prospects or look to save money is going to be JR's call, not Kenny's IMO. 2. Freddy - Should be gone, and I'm pretty optimistic about his return from an NL ballclub. He's my dark horse for a nice player, but along the middle relief/reclamation project lines. Cheap salary, huge testes, playoff vet = NL weapon. 3. Linebrink - Makes $5M in '10 and $5.5M in '11. I think we can move him this year by eating money ($2-3.5M) in 2011 while asking nothing at all in return, along with eating his entire 2010 salary. If we only save a couple million in 2011 then that's still reason enough to do the deal and free up a pen spot for a young player. 4. Teahen - Contract: $3.75M in '10, $4.75M in '11, $5.5M in '12. Yeah right. 5. Thornton - I love Matt Thornton but I'd deal him in a heartbeat if I got another team to take on Teahen in the deal. I'd rather have the money than have the prospects, because the money can go into the draft and international free agency if we want it to go there, or it can go towards the MLB team if we want it to there there instead. But that's the deal if I'm Kenny: you want to pick up the biggest reliever on the market, and one of the best available players period, and a true secret weapon that can kill your opposition in the playoffs? You want a **real** difference maker, and one you can control for 2011 at a dirt cheap price? Then you're going to swallow that big turd named Mark Teahen, and you're gonna like it too. And if I'm Kenny I pick up the phone right now and I let everyone out there know that. And if I'm the Yankees or Red Sox, and I've got the funds available, I jump all over this. Ideally the Red Sox and Yankees would both be interested and we'd end up with a halfway decent prospect thrown in there too. 6. Pierre - His $3.5M prorated this year shouldn't be a huge problem, but the $5M owed in 2011 is a huge stumbling block. I'd love to package this guy to get rid of him, but I can't see any takers for what we'd offer. I'd love to see the Sox eat some money and trade him, but at best he's probably a $2M overpayment in 2011 even including the Dodgers cash. I'd definitely do that though if we could. I'd eat all of Linebrink and Pierre's 2010 cash along with another $5-6M in 2011 just to save another $4.5-5.5M to improve the 2011 club in FA. But that's probably a pipedream. 7. Jones - Same thing as Freddy above. 8. Jenks - Same as Paulie above. 9. Putz - He makes more than Freddy and Jones, but he's still cheap as s*** and is a very good reliever. Should bring a decent return. 10. Kotsay, Castro, Lillibridge, Nix, Vizquel = who cares. All for sale, none worth a damn.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:35 PM) Kevin Garnett was right, anything is possible, but some things just aren't probable. I'd love to see this team turn it around, but honestly, it might be better for the long-term prospects of this franchise if we unload, reload, and move on. And I think that's the key: reload, not rebuild. We still have a core here for a very good baseball team.

Yeah, I was pretty optimistic until they laid that big turd at home against Cleveland. It's like the suck on the field and they suck mentally too. Meanwhile Kenny Williams is off playing XBox somewhere. Wake up you stupid franchise-ruining motherf***er.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:18 PM) Don't make moves just to make moves, make moves to get better/win. I agree 100%, however Kenny hasn't done jack all offseason and it doesn't look like he's ready to start now. I want to see this team win ballgames and, even if they can't contend this year, I want to see us finish like we did in 2004 (picking up Uribe, Rowand having a great year, trading for Freddy and Jose, etc), where everyone knew we were out but at the same time the fans could look toward the next year with some optimism. Don't end this like 2007. I totally understand the idea of trading off soon-to-be free agents and non-tenders, as long as the Sox have already decided certain players won't be back. But yeah, I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to see Jordan Danks and Tyler Flowers up here striking out.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:15 PM) So, what exactly does trading Jenks for Xavier Nady accomplish? You know, actually that might not be so bad for this reason: Jenks is gone in all likelihood because of the arb situation, so if a player like Nady is the best we can get (and some mediocre at best prospect struggling in AA is NOT a better deal) then at least Nady allows us to move Paulie for a better prospect, and on the off chance Nady does well here, because of his salary situation it would make him easier to retain for 2011. And most likely Nady wouldn't do much, but you could still look to deal him off in another Mackowiak-for-Link type of deal at the deadline or in August. That said, I really doubt we'll be in a situation where Xavier Nady is the best we can get. No matter what Jenks is doing now and no matter how interesting he can make his saves, the fact is that he is a former All-Star with very good stuff and a track record, and the National League just isn't very good at all. Bobby in the NL might put up an ERA under 3 with a very respectable WHIP should we trade him there, and you know NL GM's are aware of that. As long as the Sox eat enough salary, Jenks, while he won't fetch any big name prospects, will bring us some young players with talent.

Torres and Ryan Braun are terrible. No reason to DFA Linebrink during a bad season. Now if we were in the thick of the hunt and we had to deal with Linebrink being garbage then that would be a different story, but as it is we should do as much as we can to move him without eating every penny of his deal. Also, I don't know the point of playing prospects if none of them are ready sans Hudson. There's nothing wrong with letting young players learn at the MLB level during a trash season, but please, let's get some guys who deserve it first. If we tank then we're better off trying to strike gold with reclamation projects at the MLB level. Now would be the time for another Quentin/Floyd/Thornton/Uribe acquisition for example, where we pick up a highly talented player who hasn't made it and we see if he can play.

PS cheers for squeaking by a horses*** Cleveland team that still whooped ass. Hooray.

It makes sense to listen on Thornton, but it should take a major haul in order to move him. Doesn't matter either way though, Kenny's just going to keep sitting on ass doing f*** all. But who cares, as long as JR is busy setting things up for LBJ and his entourage that's all that matters. He's the only member of this organization that matters right now. f*** this team. f*** the players, f*** the draft, f*** the front office, f*** 'em all.