Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 07:01 PM) How many "star" players have the White Sox EVER brought in during their Reinsdorf history, other than Albert Belle? Adam Dunn qualifies? Todd Frazier? Robertson certainly doesn't. Now they've brought in PLENTY of stars about 3-5 years after their peak career years, when they were already well on the decline. It has never fit with the SouthSide image, in fact, which has always been more of a "blue collar/lunchbucket" ideology, at least until now. (I GUESS they sort of tried with Alex Rodriguez and Tanaka, but it's hard to even argue that Tanaka has become a true star/ace that he was projected to be, and making an offer doesn't exactly establish goodwill unless you start signing more Abreu's and Luis Robert's that produce on the field. They TRIED to trade for Miguel Cabrera.) How many "star" players were on the 2005 Chicago White Sox, or 2014-15 Royals? Buehrle, Crede, Pods, Dye and Konerko were NOT stars. Hosmer, Perez, Moustakas, Cain, Morales....all "solid" players, but no stars in there. I guess Cain, if you go by WAR numbers and not actual hype, because he always flew under the radar. Why do you feel the need to bring up the Royals every time there is a debate? The Royals having no star players when they won the World Series has nothing to do with us signing Mike Moustakas in the second year of our rebuild. You’re really all over the place trying to justify this move.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 05:32 PM) The Twins aren't relying on high draft picks, other than Buxton and Mauer in his final year...to contend. And, for every Hansen, there are 20 Spencer Adams or Chris Becks. I have no idea how any of this supports giving up a high draft pick to a guy to a two year deal as we enter the second year of rebuild. Who cares about the ducking Twins? Also, doesn’t matter what the pick eventually becomes. The day we draft a player we have an asset we can either develop or trade to improve the team. The whole concept of giving Moustakas an opt-out is simply idiotic given where we’re at right now.

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 04:32 PM) I mean, this about sums it up. I don't see the downside. My main points are the above and also it doesn't even block us from signing Machado or Arenado or Donaldson if we'd like. You could just shift Moose to a 1B/3B/DH utility role and still play 140 games. My other main point was also discussed in a post earlier - our 3B history is UGLY UGLY UGLY. We just don't do well there. We have no real prospects on the horizon and our best option in Burger is now another year off. I'd say best case scenario for Burger now stands at mid-2020. If you sign Moose for 4 years with an opt out after years 2 and 3 I think you do well. I'd go something like Year 1 - $10mm Year 2 - $14mm Opt out Year 3 - $15mm Opt out Year 4 - $12mm 4 years, $51mm. Throw in a few incentives for MVP voting, silver slugger, HR's etc and let him work his way towards like $5-9mm more throughout the deal. If he performs I have no problem of 4 years and $60mm You backload the deal a bit more so that it's a tougher decision to opt-out. If you front load it increases his chances that he walks after 2 years. Also getting him for only 2 years would be less than ideal. Getting him for two years at the expense of a high second round draft pick is quite frankly stupid.

If you can get Moose for something crazy like 4/$48M or 5/$60M then sure I’d consider it. However, I seriously doubt Boras would agree to such a contract without an opt-out, which is 100% a deal-breaker for me. Therefore, stay the course / keep the draft pick, give Sanchez the 3B ABs in 2018 to see what he can be, pursue the mega 3B free agents the next two offseasons, and find short-term solutions on the cheap if needed.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 12:58 PM) That is not my perception. Here is what Future Sox had to say about Engel's tools: "The reason he's been a Top 30 prospect for a couple years now is almost entirely about his tools. Engel has true plus-plus speed, a strong arm and elite athleticism. He's gotten body comps to Mike Trout, and he's got enough strength that some scouts see latent power potential he's yet to tap into." Here is MLB Pipeline's evaluation of Cordell: His scouting grades according to mlbpipeline (as of 2017) were: Hit 45 Power 55 Run 60 Arm 55 Field 55. Engel's arm is certainly at least 55 Of course, the big question is whether, or not, Adam will ever make consistent contact. Again, I concur that Cordell appears to be much further along with his hitting. I absolutely love FutureSox, but I think they missed the mark on Engel's arm with that comment. I think the general consensus is that it's below average.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 12:27 PM) let me put it more clearly: would you become a surgeon if you didn't believe in the efficacy your techniques? of course he believes Burger can come back 100% athletically -- he's in the business of making sure that happens. But so is the White Sox's medical staff? ptac is simply stating the likely outcome for Burger based on his experience.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 12:53 PM) Does WAR accumulate the same if someone was playing 2B more than half the time? in other words, are the standards for each position identical? If Yolmer Sanchez had played 3B exclusively and put up the same numbers, would his WAR have been different in any way? The positional adjustment is the same between 3B & 2B, so I don't think it would.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 12:31 PM) Are you sure about that? Except for the critical hit tool, I think that Engel has considerably more speed, as much power and an elite glove. They may both be potentially 5 tool players, but I don't think that Cordell has the potential for the elite speed and defense in CF, that Engel has. On the other hand, Engel is not nearly as far along with his development as a hitter. A guy can figure that out, and learn to hit, but you can't acquire that kind of speed. In addition to the hit tool issue, Engel has less raw power than Cordell and a much worse arm. I think it's fair to say that Cordell has a better overall package of tools. Obviously Engel has super elite speed and insane potential from a defense standpoint.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 11:45 AM) ptac knows his s*** but as a trainer he can't help but almost always envision the best case rehab. ?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 09:44 AM) Because everyone did the same thing with Moustakas’ career stats...you just made the point for me, when we should have been looking at the 2015-2017 “full picture,” including the injury prognosis. Somehow a 4.4 WAR and a high 3’s/low 4’s pace at age 26 and 27 became a future mired at 2ish at best at the grizzled old age of 29. Moose's outlook really depends on his defense. You've got to convince me last year was a one-year aberration. If not, what he did in 2015 & 2016 doesn't really matter IMO.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 09:17 AM) What could possibly go wrong with a career 652 ops guy at 3B? Why are you using career stats for a player who has played less than two full seasons of major league ball? Yolmer's OPS last year was .732. It's reasonable that a 25 year old is still getting better. By no means am I saying his 2017 offensive production is acceptable, but it's much better than the misleading number you used. Also, I'm not sure why you're discounting defense. Yolmer's fWAR was 0.1 less than golden boy Moustakas last year because he's a far better player with the glove. There's plenty of logic in giving Yolmer a chance during a lost season to see if his offseason work pays off with the bat and if he can become above average every-day player. If not, no harm loss. Either way, the Sox will be going after the big free agent 3B the next two offseasons. Yolmer is simply a place-holder or a potential trade chip.

So the more I read about this guy, the more I think this kid can become something. You've got to love the tools which are average or better across the board (as you can see below). But what really gives me hope is his plus speed which might just allow him to stick in CF. For some reason, I get an Aaron Rowand vibe from him. Obviously he'll never be that type of defender, but I think he can be a bit better with the bat if all goes right. FG Tool Grades (Present/Future) Hit: 40/50 Raw Power: 55/55 Game Power: 30/45 Run: 60/60 Fielding: 50/55 Throw: 55/55 What do you guys think of this kid? Can he stick in CF? If so, what is his ceiling?

QUOTE (Tony @ Feb 28, 2018 -> 08:34 AM) But we shouldn't listen to a medical professional? You’d think ptac wasn’t the only medical professional on this board based on some of these posts. I actually feel pretty good about Burger’s outlook after reading ptac’s comments. And I personally don’t see Burger as the long-term 3B for the Sox, as I figured they’d fill the spot before he ever made the show, so this setback is less of an issue to me. I think he’s ultimately a trade chip and this injury shouldn’t impact his value too much assuming a full recovery.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 07:10 PM) The bottom 8 teams in the NBA have combined to lose their last 44 games. It will end tonight. I know we played Brooklyn last night, but at some point the rest of these tanking teams have to play one another. At the Bulls are stepping up their tank game, although I’m a little worried it’s too too late.

Sounds like we’re not getting an update until tomorrow. I’m not optimistic at the moment. You would think a ruptured Achilles would be pretty easy to diagnose though.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 05:17 PM) Therefore, do I understand that you guys think that Boras would urge him to take a one year deal, in order to try to re-enter the free agent market, with that stacked free agent group, next year? I'm skeptical. Teams don’t want to do a multi-year deal with Moose right now because they’re waiting the elite guys next year. The teams that miss may well consider Moose a nice consolation price. But right now, he simply blocks plan A. I think he’d smart to renter the market next year, just don’t know who would actually give him a one year deal.

QUOTE (wrathofhahn @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 04:59 PM) Five years is stupid there is no reason to offer him that kind of length. I'd do 3/33 or possibly 4/42 backloaded with an opt out after two. Who are we bidding against? You’re going to give up a high second round draft pick so Moustakas can leave after two years? I thought you were guy preaching the rebuild was moving too fast. Any deal for Moose has to be at least four years with no opt-out to warrant the lost draft pick and paying him for a worthless 2018 season.

QUOTE (FT35 @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 11:06 AM) I told you I'd make it up to everyone!!! You motherf***er!

The problem for Moustakas is since teams can't give him a second QO why would any team sign him to a one-year deal unless they were desperate for a 3B? And it doesn't appear any single team is really desperate for a 3B given Todd Frazier's market. I'm really not sure what his play here is. I don't envision him accepting a 4/$48M deal without an opt-out, but why would any team give him that? He's really in a pickle here.

Moncada for sure. I’d argue he has the second highest ceiling amongst major league positional players and I fully expcect him to slowly realize that potential over the next couple years.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 08:55 AM) https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/02/twin..._medium=twitter Thanks for sharing. At least it tells me they don’t want to just hand the DH role to Davidson.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 07:32 AM) Also notable here is that the Sox apparently did have some negotiations with Morrison. Where did you see this?

For f***’s sake Caulfield, those rankings have JD Martinez over Stanton in RF. That tells me everything I need to know about the validity of using these for real world purposes.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 07:39 AM) I’ll go back to the Dyson example, a consistently 2.5-3.5 war player the last 3-4 years. 2 years, $7.5 million, age 33 Todd Frazier, 24th at 3b, $17 million for 2 years, age 32 Avi Garcia, last year was the 4th-7th best RFer depending on which stat/service you chose, expected to regress to 17th, seems about right...doesn't it? I’m not sure what you’re asking me here in regard to Dyson & Frazier.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 26, 2018 -> 07:00 AM) You disagree with the Top 10? Who/why? It’s fantasy baseball rankings. And it’s 5x5 scoring relying entirely on simple offensive metrics that don’t necessary correspond with value. The number one skill Yolmer brings to the table at 3B is his glove and that doesn’t matter at all in these rankings. It’s a completely ridiculous piece of evidence to justify any decision other than who draft at 3B in a 5x5 league. Your love of the Royals & desire for Moose is causing you to act irrational here.