Eminor3rd

QUOTE (kevo880 @ Feb 22, 2016 -> 03:06 PM) I simply disagree with you. How many teams have multiple 3-4 WAR upgrades in one offseason? We already have it with Frazier and have noticeable upgrades at 2 other positions. That's like leaving $20 on the ground because you already found $20 earlier. The fact that's it's difficult to make multiple huge improvements doesn't mean the Sox should feel content letting opportunities pass by -- the RF market presented the easiest path to improvement for this team BY FAR. It was the softest free agent market for position players in probably ten years, there were twice as many high-end corner OF options available than at any other position, and there were remarkably few teams interested in buying. Price were lower than literally anyone predicted. They were so low that teams that didn't even have openings in the OF were acquiring talent simply because the value was impossible to pass up. The Frazier trade was awesome! Great job! Why skip the easy follow-up? Why not complete the picture? QUOTE (kevo880 @ Feb 22, 2016 -> 03:06 PM) I don't think it's a major flop, as you said, that we didn't also add a 3-4 WAR OFer. I'll be shocked if the sox don't add another OFer, but they are going to do it their way, which means going through every option and make the best decision instead of making a stupid move because they feel pressure from fans that don't think they did enough this offseason. Again, if the glut of OF talent were all pulling in $150m contracts or costing multiple top prospects to acquire, I'd have no issue with the lack of movement. I believe wholeheartedly that Hahn has wisely avoided overpaying for stuff he wants -- but that's NOT what happened here. Upgrading in RF would not be "making a stupid move because of fan pressure," it would be upgrading on a career sub-replacement black hole when the universe flopped a boon of all the necessary talent right in front of you at discount prices. I get what you're saying -- all the moves Hahn DID make were great. I liked them all individually. But ultimate success in the MLB is a binary thing. Please excuse the following mess of mixed sports metaphors, but ignoring the lay-up of making a massive, relatively cheap upgrade in RF feels like running the ball to the 2-yard line and taking a knee.

Yeah I can't give them credit for something that hasn't been done. The offseason DOES look good from the 10,000 foot view of a national writer, who is primarily looking at a list of transactions. But in the context of the roster and the market that existed, the lack of a high-end OF addition is major flop, and one that could cost a couple highly valuable wins given where we're likely to be on the curve. I'll be much happier if we add a Fowler/Jackson type at a reasonable price, but I still think that this was absolutely the year to offer the first big-boy free agent contract in team history (well, excluding Albert Belle) and get a juicy 4WAR upgrade in RF.

This is fine, of course. But I pray that this isn't what Hahn/media have been referring to as "another move possible."

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 19, 2016 -> 08:42 AM) In the meantime, 2+ war out of melky and 1+ WAR out of Avi and this team contends. ...assuming absolutely nothing goes wrong anywhere else on the diamond.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Feb 19, 2016 -> 10:17 AM) Only in a discussion about the White Sox outfield defense would Dexter Fowler's name ever even remotely be mentioned as a "defensive upgrade". We should keep this in context, as in, we'd be replacing really bad defense with bad defense if he were to join the team. 1. And yet, it IS a defensive upgrade. 2. Fowler is a bad defensive center-fielder. That almost certainly means he will be at least a significantly better defensive right-fielder.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 05:20 PM) Do you believe Gordon or Cespedes would of signed with the Sox if they would of matched the respective offers they accepted from their incumbent clubs? Absolutely not.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 04:43 PM) This whole "used as leverage" thing I think is weak rationalizing. If we knew the sox truly offered more, then they were used as leverage. If we were just offering "deals" that were comparable or less than what they received, than they chose us because we didn't offer the best deal, not because we were used. If Sox offered 3/90 for Cespedes, he would have signed here. If we offered 4/90 for Gordon (what we all thought he'd get pre-offseason), you'd have Gordon in LF. But just because they went back to their teams does not mean that their FA was an illusion like Lebron to MIA. Exactly. And both of those deals would have been considered very reasonable deals.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 03:20 PM) Except when you have that many moving parts it is nearly impossible to know what it is going to take to fill all of them. It isn't like you can say to each team that they need to wait until you get the other four things lined up. But he made the trades first and VERY quickly. He essentially had four months to feel out the historically slow OF market, and watch and waited as prices fell further than anyone could have predicted. During the period, all of his "moving parts" were already settled; the OF signing was the final piece. We all laughed when Nightengale tweeted that the Sox were pushing for 3 years max on an OF, but then BOTH Gordon and Cespedes somehow DID fall to three years and below $80m! No we're seeing Fowler essentially begging for 3/$45m, and we're not in the picture. The Sox could have had these guys if they were willing to pay a very fair price. They have continually chosen not to, even after the players have been forced to give in to their "three year max" demands.

QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 03:11 PM) Or did they just misjudge the market, especially in regards to how much the Big 3 outfielders were going to receive with the limited number of teams involved? I'd buy that if all of those OFs got $130m+ contracts, but they simply didn't. Literally no one expected the contracts for position players to be so reasonable, on the whole. If the Sox somehow thought that they were going to get one of those guys for EVEN LESS, they have no idea what they're doing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) If you are Rick Hahn, are you willing to go to Jerry Reinsdorf and the Board of Directors and tell them that Dexter Fowler is the guy you need to put you over the top? If I was Rick Hahn, I would have gone to JR early in the season and said, "I see paths to fill four huge holes (3B, 2B, SP, RF) at bargain level prices. If we fill all four, I think we're arguably the best team in the Central. The downside is that they're all relatively short-term solutions, so if we do one, we should do all four to ensure that we realize the benefits. Here's what I think it costs." And if I couldn't get JR to commit to even ONE significant free agent, even when that free agent was going to cost under $50m, I would not have sold my precious assets for the partial upgrade. Not for 2 seasons, anyway. EDIT: 5 huge holes, including catcher.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 02:24 PM) Yes we are a couple of pieces short. So is the entire AL Central. I don't think we are the leading candidate here, but we sure aren't out of it. The team has been improved a lot during the off-season, and it might be enough. That doesn't change the fact that we had several very realistic opportunities to make a substantial upgrade and passed for reasons unknown. I'm not talking about whether or not this team has a chance to win, I'm talking about a front office that didn't do everything it could to put it in the best position to win. If anything, the "flawed" state of every team in our division should have made investment in further improvement MORE valuable. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 18, 2016 -> 02:24 PM) Here is the thing though, even if we can't win it this year, the next off-season is probably going to be one of the best sellers markets in the history of baseball. All you have to do is look at the free agent market and know that teams that are willing to trade assets aren't going to be competing against quality free agents. They are going to be going against the worst free agent market in modern history. In a scenario where the Sox don't make it, AND decide to sell, they can decide to sell short term assets, such as Frazier and Lawrie, or they can go full out rebuild and trade from the starting pitcher stash. If they were to do it, they should be able to control the selling market more than most times. The acquisition of a corner outfielder at the extraordinarily reasonable prices that teams have been paying wouldn't hinder our ability to take advantage of a seller's market next year. In fact, it might HELP it. Also, that HAS to be the contingency plan, not the main plan.

If Avi is our Opening Day RF, then it has NOT been a good offseason. There has maybe never been a better buyer's market for corner OF in the history of free agency, and corner OF was the single biggest hole we had to fill on the team. We bicker back and forth around here a lot about the team's willingness to spend money. Some feel like the team should spend as much as it can every year to win, while others don't want to see inefficient and sloppy moves being made simply for the sake of spending resources. I've tended to fall on the latter side -- even though I acknowledge that ownership[ is making money and has a TON at its disposal, money should still be treated as a finite resource, because losing money is not a sustainable model. The rub on that line of thinking about falls around where the limit SHOULD be. How do you set a limit when you technically have more to spend than you need? To me, the answer is that you buy when the market is ripe for you to buy. Going into the offseason, no "contender" needed an corner OF more than us, with the exception of the Royals, and there were no less than 8 significant upgrades available (Heyward, Upton, Gordon, Cespedes, Fowler, Jackson, Parra, Dickerson). Pitchers and catcher have now reported, nearly all of those options are off the board, and nearly all of them have cost LESS than expected. The teams that have gotten them have, in many cases, created logjams with the acquisitions simply because the value to cost ratio was so good. And yet the White Sox still have nothing. I loved the Frazier, Lawrie, and Latos acquisitions, but if I knew our front office was going to stare a gift horse in the mouth for six straight months until the OF market collapsed entirely, I'd have rather they gone in a totally different direction.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 17, 2016 -> 08:08 PM) Jackson put up a 2.3 fWAR last year, while Avi put up a -1.1. That's a 3.4 fWAR differential, which is beyond substantial. I also think the Safeco is a plus, as plenty of guys have turned around after leaving Seattle. As for Jackson's role on the team, he'd be our CF with Eaton moving to RF. That's a significantly better defensive alignment than Cabrera-Eaton-Garcia. And I get you're an Avi fanboy, but there is nothing to suggest Avi will get materially better at this point in time. 1,100 career PA's and he's been worth a combined -1.9 fWAR, with no signs of improvement. We're talking about a a guy who is a horrific defender & poor base runner that also has no plate discipline. The odds of him ever hitting enough to account for his other shortcomings is incredibly small. You certaintly don't risk a legit shot at a division title over it. And I'm not even advocating dumping Avi, I'd like to see him as LaRoche's platoon partner and overall insurance policy at DH & LF. Amen, brother.

#2 on the "Best" list: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-best-tr...016-off-season/

No

I miss that 90's ESPN score-bug motif

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2016 -> 03:33 PM) I've been chanting patience as much as anyone, but if Fowler signs for 2 years $20 million with Baltimore, and Hahn doesn't have something else up his sleeve, I will be more than a little perplexed. Same

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 05:04 PM) Just asking and not criticizing but do you think the Sox would dump Kahnle after trading Almonte for him? No, I don't think it's likely. He was one of the guys I figured they "probably like more than Nolin" but I included because he seems like a rando to me.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 03:19 PM) You didn't list Olt as well but him Sands and Fields are probably 3. Carroll is another one who would probably clear waivers. Good call on Olt. I imagine he'd be the first to go if the Sox sign an OF and presumably give Avi platoon at-bats at DH.

QUOTE (GREEDY @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 02:27 PM) In most cases below average defenders with lopsided splits should. And just not starting vs LHP is far from making Eaton a part timer. He pinch hits (and likely stays in the game) the minute a RHP enters the game. He also would likely be the first backup for all three OF positions and the DH vs LHP. But we have other guys who need to be platooned much more (which you pointed out), and not enough bench spots to go around. When you have to find a lefty for Avisail AND Melky, and probably a righty for LaRoche, you can't afford to platoon a guy who is going to put up 3 WAR despite his weaknesses.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 02:02 PM) The 40 man roster is finally full, which means if they want to bring in another major leaguer, they would have to cut an additional player if they made a claim like this. As to the player, If the Sox see something they can alter, I have no problem with it. QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 02:20 PM) Plenty of garbage on the 40 they can dfa. Taking a look at the 40-man, I actually don't see any obvious guys to dump -- there are guys EYE would dump, but I assume the Sox might/probably like them as much or more than Nolin. Here are the potentials that jumped out: OF Jerry Sands IF Leury Garcia OF Daniel Fields SP Scott Carroll SP Brandon Brennan RP Tommy Kahnle RP Zach Phillips RP Michael Ynoa

QUOTE (GREEDY @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 02:09 PM) Wat? Did you not understand why I bolded a portion of your post? I was trying to highlight the part I disagreed with without removing all of the context.

QUOTE (GREEDY @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 02:03 PM) Melky was an elite LF defender during his prime. Now he is a poor defensive outfielder and even if you think his bat will return to career averages this season I don't see anyone claiming his defense will get better. He shouldn't start vs LHP. Eaton is a poor offensive player (.291 wOBA, .054 ISO) vs LHP and a below average defender. In a perfect world he doesn't start vs LHP. How is that nonsense? So every player without neutral platoon splits should be a part-timer?

No, he hasn't been good in the majors, and that's why he was DFA'd. However, he did fine in the minors, is a formerly highly regarded prospect, and would presumably be happy stashed in Charlotte. And the Sox still need SP depth. And we are actually in a position to win the claim for once. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...&position=P

QUOTE (GREEDY @ Feb 16, 2016 -> 01:27 PM) In a perfect world Eaton shouldn't face LHP: This is easily the furthest stretch of the three, but Eaton has zero career HRs vs LHP and sports a .686 OPS. If his defense continues to be below average then he is not an everyday player on a good team IMHO. wat