Paulstar

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 09:29 PM) Except that there is sufficient evidence - August and September with Arizona and the first half of the season last year - to prove that your primary theory or opinion - that Dunn only produces when his teams are, for lack of a better term, fistf***ed - is wrong. Opinions can be wrong when there is proof to the contrary. If you want to believe Dunn is a loser, that's fine, I have nothing against that. I don't believe it to be true, but we're entitled to our opinions on that. I wouldn't call that sufficient proof, but rather an argument opposite my argument. I do not recall watching Dunn in 2008 when he was with the D-Backs, but he was a big time mid-season acquisition for a team in the heat in contention, and the Diamondbacks wound up going 22-22 with Dunn, two wins away from making the playoffs (or at least game 163). It would be really interesting to hear some Diamondbacks fans opinion on him during that 44 game stretch. As for last year, he did aid to the hot start, but he started to fall off right around the same time when the Sox surprised the whole league and were in first place. He played his best when nothing was expected of the Sox. Was it injuries, another reason, or was it that he does not preform when the pressure picks up?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 10:13 PM) The more I read through this thread, the more I think, if the Sox make a move during the offseason, it will be with the intention of playing well in 2014 with an eye towards the division in 2015. There are a lot of holes and question marks that are really glaring going into next season, and this is not an incredibly strong free agent class. Make a trade or two for a high upside bat, make a conservative signing or two that will be here for 3 years, and call it an offseason with the intention of winning about 81-85 games next year. If they remain mediocre to bad and only win 75, that's fine, and if they surprise and go bonkers with 92 wins, that's fine too. Just don't do anything stupid to get tied into a really bad long term deal. If this was facebook, I would hit the like button on this post.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 05:45 PM) Dunn is 9th in the AL in RBI. So if driving in runs is what he needs to be doing, there are only 8 guys in the AL driving in more. He isn't worth what he is being paid, but he has been pretty decent lately, and he has produced runs both last year and this. Also, Dunn isn't hitting 3rd. You must have hated Frank Thomas batting third walking more than Dunn. Couple questions... When did I ever say there was anything wrongbwith Dunn's production this year? Also, when did I limit this discussion to solely jumber 3 hitters? And finally, when did I say taking walks was bad? I said looking for walks isnt good, and I said I could care less about OBP when looking at hitters who's job is to drive in runs.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 05:59 PM) REPEATING THINGS DOES NOT MAKE THEM TRUE. Its just my opinion, thats why I said I think. Sorry that my opinion offends you so much

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 05:51 PM) Walks are a by-product of a good plate approach in which the hitter swings at good pitches and takes bad pitches. No one LOOKS to walk. But they have to accept a walk, because if they don't then pitchers never have to give them good pitches to hit. For the LIFE of me, I don't understand why people cannot grasp this. I completely understand plate discipline. So you are telling me all the times Dunn has had a full count and let a pitch go right down the middle for strike three, he was practicing good plate discipline? I tend to think he was sitting dead red for a pitch to hit for a home run, and if he didn't get it, he was hoping for a walk, which is a terrible approach, in my opinion.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 03:00 PM) Then you are ignorant and there's no point in discussing this. Robin Yount played in the postseason only twice during his illustrious 20 year career. Is he a loser? On the contrary, David Eckstein played for in the postseason 4 times and won 2 World Series rings, which quite clearly qualifies him as a winner, correct? That Dunn has played on last place teams is circumstantial and has little to do with him. Oh, and BTW, this "he hasn't been the man until this June" is BS too, unless you, for whatever reason, consider the .953 OPS on June 16th of last year chopped liver. He fell of precipitously after that, as I have mentioned, but he was an incredibly valuable player for the first half of last year and, due to injury and whatever else, fell off in the second half like everyone else on the team. Not every situation is the same, and I never said that all players who don't play on winning teams are losers on the baseball field, but I guess the argument of putting words in other peoples mouths is a common one here. I just said with Dunn, the way I see it, he is a loser, or at least in the situation where he is paid to be your top hitter and the main guy on your offense. Dunn, ever since he was done with arbitration, has been either the highest paid hitter on the team, or close to it. You pay who you think is the centerpiece of your offense the most, unless you got an awesome young phenom who won't be paid the most for a couple years. For a middle of the order bat, someone who is supposed to be one of your top guys, to strikeout as much as Dunn, be as bad as him in late/clutch situations, and pile that on top of the fact that he is known for producing most when the games don't matter, I just think that is a losing baseball player.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 04:46 PM) This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this site. An .800 ops is an .800 ops. He is not being paid to be the guy either. He's being paid to hit a s***load of homers and walk a lot. Clutch is bulls*** by the way. It is a myth. If clutch was a myth, Joe Crede would not be one of the most celebrated members of that 2005 White Sox team. Yogi Berra wouldn't be a hall of famer and one of the most beloved Yankees of all time if it wasn't for his clutch hitting. I understand you are sabr guy and all into stats, so it would be easy for you to be shocked by me not viewing an .800 OPS as good. But for you to completely deny the idea of clutch hitting? Who's the one saying stupid things now? And by the way, I don't really care about OPS, or mainly OBP, when it comes to 3-4-5 hitters. To me, I look at AVG, SLG, extra base hits, RBIs, and their stats with runners in scoring position and late/close situations. You don't need your number 3 hitter up looking to walk like Dunn does so much, you need him up there driving in runs.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 01:38 PM) This post is so far off base it's hilarious. You must have missed Dunn putting up an .800 OPS last year when the Sox were in contention. When he "stopped" hitting in the second half, he was hurt and banged up, much like everyone else on that team. And the Nats and Reds competing after he left is coincidental and ironic. As was mentioned, the Reds found a pitching staff. The Nats did as well - some dudes name Strasburg, Gonzalez, and Zimmerman - and in his final year there, here were the numbers put up by guys with atleast 150 plate appearances: Ivan Rodriguez: .640 OPS Adam Kennedy: .655 OPS Nyjer Morgan: .633 OPS Roger Bernadina: .691 OPS Cristian Guzman: .687 OPS Willie Harris: .653 OPS Alberto Gonzalez: .578 OPS Wil Nieves: .554 OPS That team only scored 655 runs. Are you really going to blame that on Adam Dunn? Adam Dunn has been a victim of bad luck on teams, and he doesn't help defensively, but to essentially say "Adam Dunn makes teams bad and when he leaves teams are good" is absolutely 100% wrong. .800 OPS can kiss my ass if your batting .200 and striking out over 200 times. There is something telling when a player puts up his best seasons when a team is in last place, and when a team is in contention he's nowhere to be found. Some guys are winners and some guys are losers, and the fact Dunn has never appeared in one post season game, is very un-clutch and does most of his damage in non-pressure situations, I'm sorry, the guy is a loser on the baseball field. Again, if surrounded by the right people in the right situation, sure Dunn could be a productive player for a contender. But he is being paid to be the guy, and he's never been the guy with the white sox until this past June when the Sox fell into the laughingstock of the league. Also, I never once said he was the main reason. All I said there was something to be seen and it might be more than 100% coincidental and bad luck.

This is always a crap shoot, and it would be an extremely lucky guess if the Sox even acquire one of these guys, but it's always fun to play armchair GM. 1. Adam Eaton, CF (L) -Acquired via deadline trade with ARI, possible piece in a trade for Rios and Lindstrom/Thornton. 2. Michael Young, 3B ® -Signed as a free agent, two year deal, pay the price to acquire him in hopes of having a positive effect on Beckham. 3. Ben Zobrist, RF (S) -Acquired via offseason trade w/ Rays. Rays always looking to free up money and might have interest in a power bat like Viciedo plus some young pitching. 4. Brian McCann, C (L) -The big splash in free agency by the White Sox to show the fan base that the team is serious about competing and making up for a pitiful 2013. McCann is destined for an AL team as he needs the DH spot to rest his body a couple times a week. 5. Paul Konerko, DH ® -Homer pick, but if his back/hip/wrist all feels good and he wants to return on an incentive type deal, he would be a solid option at DH. Would help with the transition of someone else becoming the face of the offense. 6. James Loney, 1B (L) -While Morse, Lind, Hart, Morales, and Morneau will be the prime targets of teams needing a 1B with power, Loney might be the forgotten man and be a relative bargain for a multi-year deal. 7. Jason Bay, LF ® -Cheap option out in LF who could turn out being a major diamond in the rough. Whenever he plays in HR friendly parks he seems to flourish, but it would be perfectly acceptable if all he did was hit around .220-.230 as long as he provided around 25 homers. 8. Kolten Wong, 2B (L) -Acquired via midseason trade with Cardinals. Cardinals have a logjam at 2B and Matt Carpenter seems to be solidifying himself as their 2B of the future. They might decide to hang onto Wong as insurance similar to what they have done with Matt Adams, but perhaps a deal for a SS like Ramirez might be to tempting for them to pass up. 9. Gordon Beckham, SS ® -Beckham is a mystery offensively. He obviously has the tools to be a very good hitter, but the approach has been lacking until his recent wrist injury which has forced him to stop swinging for the fences. I have thought that ever since he was drafted, Michael Young would be the perfect mentor for him, but even if his offense is still a roller-coaster ride, it will be much more bearable if he can play an above average SS, which I believe he can. He has shown he has plenty of arm, as well as great instincts and reactions at 2B. I think it would be foolish not to see if those skills would transition over to SS with him.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 1, 2013 -> 07:59 AM) From 2002-2008, the Reds consistently had one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball. Yet they didn't make the playoffs because Adam Dunn is a loser. Right. I suppose it is also a coincidence that Dunn finally starts to hit once the White Sox are one of the worst teams in baseball? I didn't say it was Dunn's fault for the Reds being bad. However, I don't think it is a surprise that both the Reds and Nationals let him go and then both teams proceeded to become much better. Of course there are other reasons for their turnarounds as well, but I don't think you can ignore the Dunn effect. Honestly, I think Dunn is a loser because of two main reasons. The first reason is because he is not a very clutch hitter and that leads to reason number 2, he thrives in non-pressure situations. He is notorious for putting up big numbers when it doesn't matter.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 11:08 PM) WHile i do agree with some of what you said, it has nothing to do with not liking his game. I wouldn't want him as a verteran leader on a young club either I agree. For a team that already has its main guys in place and looking to shore up that weakspot in the OF for their playoff run, Rios is really a great fit.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 10:16 PM) Personally I like James Loney. People throw around the other names because we're going to need some power. Loney won't command as much but he's a good stick and fielder. I want good defense if we hang onto most of our pitchers . I agree, Loney is a really nice player who is overlooked because he does not fill that traditional 30+ HR power 1B. However, he makes up for that lack of power with good contact skills, ability to hit for a good average, very good defense, and is not a base clogger. Would have no problem with him at 1B if you make up for his lack of power elsewhere. Plus, depending on who the DH and other outfielders are, he is athletic enough to possibly shift over to LF in interleague games.

In an era where top relievers are coveted mid-season by contending teams, Crain should bring back a very good return. The man has been the best set-up guy in all of baseball this season, and there are probably at least 10 teams that would love to have him right now. You're crazy if you don't think he will bring back a good return. Lesser relievers than Crain have brought back very good returns because of how valuable a good reliever is mid-season. Thornton and Lindstrom on the other hand, you might get a nice little package like what the Sox got in the Frasor deal a couple years ago, but don't expect anything that will shock the world.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 10:07 PM) How could you not like "his game" when it includes good average, good power, good speed, average defense in center, above average defense in right and a good person in the clubhouse. There is a reason why he, along with Dunn, are the top two players when it comes to games played without a playoff appearance. I and others might over blow this idea, but I firmly believe that no matter what the stats tell you, some players are either winners or losers. Granted a lot also depends on the rest of the roster, but I don't think Rios is someone you would want around during a rebuilding and being one of the vets on a young ballclub.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 01:15 PM) I don't think there's any chance he miraculously turns into the hitter he used to be, but he could be a good platoon guy at 1b if the Sox have a RH batter to fill the role with him or elsewhere in the IF. Viciedo maybe, not sure if they want to throw in the towel and platoon him yet or not. I think you are underestimating him a little bit. Currently he is having a very good year, except for the power numbers. He's still driving in runs and hitting for average. And while he hasn't hit lefties like he used since the concussion, he still doesn't scream platoon player like some other people do, and he looks like Babe Ruth vs. lefties compared to Dunn. If you put him in a ballpark like US Cellular Field for 81 games a year, I think you'd see his power numbers come back. Maybe not his MVP years power number, but around 20-25 homers would not be that crazy.

I wonder if the D-Backs would be desperate enough for bullpen help that they would trade one of their young CF's, either Eaton or Pollack, for Crain.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 09:16 AM) It isn't like there are a ton of options. If the Sox were to bench players after dumb plays, they would only have 3 or 4 guys in the field. I am pretty sure Bud wouldn't allow that. Everyone gets talked to, the Sox are still working on fundamentals. Gonzales even tweeted a photo from a baserunning class they were having before a game earlier in the week. I will say, I thought the defense had its finest game on Saturday, but it still was a loss. I understand that, but that still doesn't explain why a player has been pulled only once, but it really is a moot point now. Sitting a guy here or there after a bad play isn't going to wake this team up and turn the season around.

McCann is a risk, but he has proven himself to be really good hitter and his struggles this year probably have more to with him being not 100% yet. He is definitely destined for the AL and if he can be put in a situation where he catches maybe 3 out of 5 games and DH the other games, I think you can definitely see his offensive production go back up. But with him being one of the premier catchers in the game, a team with deep pockets could easily force his salary to an unreasonable range for the Sox. Also, I wouldnt rule out a return of Pierzynski. Utley has two major things going against him in free agency. His age and I cant even remember the last time he stayed healthy for a whole year. The way he is playing this year won't make him cheap, but I dont see him breaking the bank either.

QUOTE (Jbabs34 @ Jun 30, 2013 -> 08:04 AM) That's exactly what's wrong with this organization, they haven't drafted and developed anyone that can save them in the near future. You have bad and/or aging players making too much money relative to their performance and no one in the system to step in. So, if Hahn decides to completely rebuild today and is able to trade Rios, Dunn, Peavy, Crain, Thornton, etc., do you honestly think that with the players he gets in return combined with what the Sox currently have in the system, that they will be competitive in the next couple years? Doesn't seem likely If you can at least get two or three solid contributors back for 2014 in firesale trades, and then use the 40+ million in open salary space to sign the right guys in free agency, it's possible this team could compete as soon as next year. I guess it depends on what the owners want to do. Either completely cut costs and go with nothing but rookies in 2014, which is easily one of the worst things to do in this situation, or keep the team salary around the same as it has been and make aggressive pitches at some of the top FA's (McCann, Morneau, Morales, Morse, Hart, Granderson, Pence, Utley, etc.).

Because it doesn't matter who you are, what Viciedo pulled in the 8th inning of game 1 of the DH was almost as bad as what Beckham did with the infield pop up in the 9th, regardless if you are still in the game or not. The better question is why has Viciedo been the only to be put on the bench for one game when other players continually make terrible, sloppy, and undisciplined mistakes?

One name that I saw on the free agent list that intrigued the hell out of me was Michael Young. He's always been noted for his veteran leadership, and I always felt like he would be the perfect mentor for Beckham. I remember hearing how Mark DeRosa working with Young in Texas really saved his career from failed prospect with the Braves to becoming an all around sound ballplayer for many years. Gordon Beckham has enough talent to be a Michael Young type hitter, he just needs to learn how to approach hitting like Michael Young.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 29, 2013 -> 07:21 PM) We'll have to agree to disagree, then. Once again, we're going to have a half-season where every number put up will be with the caveat, "yeah, but what would he do if the games actually meant something?" This whole offense/defense thing does seem to have some correlation with players like Rios and DeAza, IMO. Comfort and confidence in the field spills over onto the hitting side, for example, when Alex was taken out of CF. I would make the argument that Rios' resurgence at the plate had more to do with him fixing his batting stance and holding his hands higher. However, you can make the argument that it was the shift to RF mentally helped him with fixing his approach. Its one of those things you can argue on for days and never have a right answer. Personally, I lean towards saying that most major league players are mentally tough enough to separate the two aspects of the game, because if they were not mentally strong enough in the first place, odds are they wouldn't make it to the majors in the first place. At least thats my opinion.

I see people throwing around Lind and Morales names as 1B/DH, but I haven't seen anyone really mention Morneau. The Twins are likely to let Morneau go and convert Mauer to full time 1B, and if Morneau finds that power stroke again, he can be one of the top 1B in the league for another 3-4 years. I think he would be a phenomenal signing if you can get him without breaking the bank.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 29, 2013 -> 06:53 PM) I doubt they'd want to mess with his hitting. A more likely scenario is someone like Brendan Ryan, with Sanchez waiting in the wings (and also dependent upon what other prospects we bring back in the next 5 weeks of trading). Give me a break, the whole defense correlating to offense production is so overblown. Beckham never took his bat out there with him on the field, and so far this year his defensive miscues, including one of the worst plays you will ever see any major leaguer ever make, has not effected his bat. If anything, you could make the argument (although I don't buy this argument either) that moving Gordon back to his natural SS position would help his offense, very similar to the argument of moving Rios to RF helped his offensive production.

The Cardinals are currently in a very good, but tough situation. They have Carpenter at 2B, with Descalso backing up both middle infielders, and top prospect Kolton Wong playing very well in AAA. All three of these players could start at 2B on a good amount of major league teams right. Carpenter can play multiple positions, but all the positions he can play besides 2B are taken up by established players or are being looked to be filled by their highly touted prospects. Descalso can play SS, but they seem to like Kozma better, probably because he is the better defender (can't say for sure though as I have not seen too much of the cardinals this year). Also, they have a log jam at 1B with Craig and Adams, although I see them holding on to Adams, letting Beltran leave after this year and moving Craig to RF, putting Tavares in CF, and either trading or making Jay their fourth OF. I usually am not a big fan of big, slow, 1B/DH types like Adams, but he looks like a very advanced hitter who has a tool many of the big, slow, but powerful hitters lack, and that is the hit tool and he looks like he can be a .300 hitter with 30+ jacks a year, almost a left handed version of Billy Butler. If the White Sox can pry away one of Adams or Wong, that would be fantastic and both are the type of players the Sox need for the future. However, even acquiring someone like Descalso is a lesser deal would be pretty good to.