The Ultimate Champion

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 12:51 PM) The fact is anyone who says Dunn has some value or is holding out hope he can build some, is basing it on how much money he is owed. If he were making $4-5 million, I doubt many would be arguing any post saying release him, and it is highly unlikely the White Sox get anything of value for him at the deadline even if he is productive. Look what Rios brought back. I think we all agree Adam Dunn sucks. Rios is a great example. And as I said in another post, there is a massive salary gap which the Sox would have to bridge regardless to get any return on Dunn whatsoever. Whatever that gap is, when you remove it, Dunn is paid as a bench player & the only reason you even bother trotting him out there is because you believe there is a chance of a quality return in the form of a prospect. Is that quality return in the form of a prospect theoretically possible? Yes. A realistic expectation? No.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) Dunn's WAR depends on what position he plays. He won't be a negative WAR for all teams, particularly not a team that will use him more situationally than the Sox have. He's got a skill left intact, specifically pretty massive power, and that will provide positive value in many situations, lineups and parks. I don't know why you can't just admit that those of us who believe Dunn has a modicum of value are holding a reasonable position. Instead, you end up like the guy on the street corner raving about how everyone else is doomed because of their ignorance. Keep waving your cardboard sign, man. You'll convince the passersby one of these days! OK so here it is, what you guys just can't understand. You admit (once again) that Dunn's value is very, very small. You all also know that the Sox are having both DeAza & Viciedo compete for 1 position BECAUSE Dunn is taking up the DH slot. You all also know that as a result, Dunn is going to take PA from both DeAza & Viciedo, AND that the Sox will lose a bench spot because of Dunn. So you are all willing to sacrifice a full season of PA for both ADA & Viciedo AND you also will accept a less versatile bench BECAUSE you insist on capitalizing on this "modicum" of value. Now how does that make any sense? You've got potentially a bullpen of 7 relievers all with prior MLB experience who could all bring back at least as much if they're quality, and you've got 2 guys in ADA & Viciedo who could potentially bring in real returns. How does keeping Dunn make any sense?

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 12:31 PM) Would you pay 15 million for him to play for the Sox or another team. There is your choice. Dont forget this is the White Sox and not a large payroll big market team. If his WAR is negative then the Sox should be willing to pay him $17M to play for the Tigers.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 12:23 PM) They signed them because they feel those players help the Sox to compete this year. You continue to trumpet the idea that the Sox have known all along that they have no intentions of competing, and while they may not be the favorite, they absolutely will do everything in their power to compete. We did not believe they would be competitive in 2008, 2010, or 2012 and they went out and were competitive to the very end on all 3 of those seasons. And there will certainly be teams interested in taking on some money to have Dunn in their lineup the last 2 months. At the time he was traded, Soriano was hitting .254/.287/.467/.754. Dunn will almost certainly be hitting at or above that level. People also understand that his value comes against RHP, and with no commitment into next year, they will be far more willing to include some money. Desperation increases the amount that you are willing to pay for a service or good, which is how a typically conservative ownership group headed by Jerry Reinsdorf paid $4 million for 1 month of Manny Ramirez. At this juncture, you are virtually the only person on this entire board who believes the right move is to release Dunn prior to opening day. If there is a right/wrong, that should tell you everything you need to know. Even Hawk thinks we're about 2015. Hahn has basically said as much himself. The only thing the Sox don't want to do is "punt" the season looking to Tank for the draft pick, and when you look at even their MiLB philosophy, the organization as a whole seems to prefer bringing guys along in more of a winning environment. That doesn't mean they think they are going to compete this year. They are just looking to continue building their core & they would like to do so without having to exist in a period of absolutely brutal, unwatchable baseball. Who can play Dunn & give him any PAs? Teams like versatile players. Soriano has some speed & even as a butcher he has an arm and can play the OF a bit. And still, you're talking about the Yankees who also covered a chunk of Vernon Wells. When they have a need they'll take on some cash to save a spect, but there aren't many teams like that, especially those in need of a Dunn. If there are only 2 suitors out there & both of them would rather acquire ADA from the Sox and get some speed, more contact, and some versatility then the Sox have no leverage at all. Just try to think who would want Dunn and for what reason, and then remember that teams like the Cubs and Astros and Mets who also project as sellers will have LH bats on the market as well. I'd much rather have a ADA or Schierholtz than Dunn on the roster, especially if I already had pop elsewhere. Sox will be very lucky to find someone who will give up a mediocre prospect or take on $2-3M savings in order to keep that prospect. Both? Good f***ing luck, and since I'm the crazy Jesus lover you can go ahead & kiss Saint Peter for me while your head is in the f***ing clouds.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 11:52 AM) Didn't the Dodgers release Andruw Jones owing him a lot more money than the Sox owe Dunn? It isn't going to happen, and I don't think it should, at least now. Maybe if he is struggling on June 1st, you pull the plug, but releasing him and eating that sum of cash isn't unprecedented. THey deferred a lot of that money as well. And it was a deal that the MLBPA had to sign off on & did so immediately because it made a ton of sense. The Dodgers didn't want to play Jones and Jones wanted to continue his playing career, so that deal allowed Jones to reinvent himself as a bench guy with the Rangers, and he extended his career because of it, playing in Texas, then here, then with the Yankees. I mentioned that model before because it would be a great one to follow. Dunn doesn't need to be here & he doesn't seem to want to be here either. So let him go. Otherwise, if you straight release him and he signs for $1M elsewhere you automatically save $500K. So if you're only looking at saving $2-3M anyway you're already talking about a good chunk of that. You just have to look around the market & see what Dunn would be worth right now as a FA. Could he even get a guaranteed MLB contract? If so, it probably tops out at $2M or so and it's likely to be more like $1-1.5M as a base plus incentives. That great disparity between what his market value currently is and what the Sox are obligated to pay him ($15M) absolutely HAS to be bridged by the Sox for any deal to happen at any point. And once you bridge that gap you're looking at an insignificant savings for a team already supposedly under budget, and the real thing you need to consider is whether or not it's worth it to run him out there in the hope that you can get enough of a prospect in return to justify taking the PA away from someone else. And it's obviously not worth it, because both DeAza & Viciedo are "competing" for a LF spot. Those guys could split 2 positions and each get a full season of AB without Dunn on the roster.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 12:02 PM) Assumption. All that follows is based on this assumption. If others disagree with your assumption, they are not stupid for disagreeing with the claims that follow. I think you can reasonably assume that owners of one team with extra $$$ in their pockets don't cut checks to their rivals just because they can. Head, take it out of the sand. The only way anyone wants Dunn is if he's good, looks useful, and the only way anyone takes on ANY salary is because it would save them from giving up a prospect. Which is why I mentioned Belisario & Boggs, Paulino as well, we signed those guys because we did NOT want the savings (we could have put Rienzo and Webb in the pen, maybe Petricka too), we signed them because we want to flip a vet for a prospect. So if some team thought Dunn was worth $2-3M in savings of a halfway decent spect the Sox would want the spect. They added $1M to the Texas deal just to get Leury.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 11:37 AM) I don't necessarily disagree, nor have I ever disagreed with this, but there's no reason not to try and save some money. That means it's going to roll all the way into September and personally, I don't see any way Dunn is on the White Sox come September 1st. The guy does hit righties pretty well still and he can be relatively cheap at that point in the year. Why eat $15 million if you can even save $1.5 or $2 or $3 mill or whatever? By all accounts he's great in the clubhouse, they are going to need him if they are going to compete at all, and they'll likely end up saving some money at the end of the day anyways. There is absolutely 0 point in releasing him. So let's say you play Dunn all the time & you end up saving $3M because of it. Really, I think that's a seriously generous amount but whatever. You spend half a season's worth of PA against RHP to get that & those come at the expense of DeAza and Viciedo. Maybe you have to take 50 cents on the dollar for one of those guys to make it happen, and you lose the ability to carry a true CF backup with it. Is that measly $3M savings worth taking a lesser return on a piece that could conceivably actually bring back something worthwhile? I'll answer for you since you can't do it correctly yourself: NO, it is not. What are the Sox giving to Belisario, something like $3.5M IIRC? What do they get for him at the deadline or over the offseason if he's pretty good? IMO they don't get nearly as much as they could get for DeAza if he's even decent, and it's far less of a return than they'd get out of Viciedo if he shows a pulse this season. And do the Sox REALLY need Belisario? No, they don't. Like Boggs and Paulino, he's someone who hopefully turns into something useful which you can then flip. Keeping Dunn to save a couple mil at the expense of a potentially larger & more meaningful return later is absolutely stupid. And I've said this a thousand times but you guys still don't get it: 1) The Chicago White Sox alone, and none of the other 29 teams in the league, are obligated to pay Adam Dunn $15M this year no matter what he does. 2) No other team wants to help subsidize Dunn's salary. 3) This all means that the money is gone, bye bye, it left in the form of a guaranteed contract over the 2011-12 offseason. You don't get any of that back UNLESS some team just decides they want to help you. And the only way that happens is if Dunn is good. And even if he is, do you REALLY want a couple mil savings? No, you want a prospect with a pulse. And looking at Dunn's Sox career, and looking at his age, and his swing, and the fact that by sitting vs. LHP he'll see even less live pitching (remember these games aren't played on paper and Dunn standing there in the box actually does not have the makeup of your prototypical platoon player), when factoring in all this, how likely is it that you get the return you are looking for? What are those odds? Compare those odds to those of DeAza improving his game & Viciedo also improving. The best odds say that you go with those 2 over Dunn, and you take the 4th OF candidate in Danks which allows you to keep your LFers comfortable in CF as you look to build their value.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 10:57 AM) To the death. Prove it.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 09:49 AM) TUC sounds like he's a little sore from so many people pointing out that he's wrong. Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I guess that makes me insane for thinking that logic will prevail in this instance. I have chosen my friends in life well, but thanks for your opinion. I have considered it and do not agree with it. SoxTalk: "The world is flat, so don't go sailing too far or you'll fall right off of it and into Heaven, which we currently believe is a giant bowl of jello." Wite: "I like jello." SS2K5: JELL-O ‏@JELLO Aug 26 It doesn’t cure hair loss, but creamy chocolatey JELL-O Pudding can make even the toughest day easy to swallow. http://tinyurl.com/jw5ne74

QUOTE (farmteam @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 10:00 AM) I'd imagine Nieto is very, very long shot for the backup spot. It seems the question would be whether they want Phegley to get everyday at bats in Charlotte or see what he can do spelling Flowers once every fifth game or so. EDIT: Admittedly I have a soft spot for Phegley because we were at Indiana at the same time. But he has taken a year to adjust to every level so far, and I hope that would continue one last time for the bigs. We shall see. If Nieto doesn't break with the team then I hope the Sox go out & acquire a veteran backup with a lot of MLB experience. What's Gerald Laird doing, is he still alive? If so, cash considerations should be enough for a guy like that. AJ said that he thinks the Sox erred in putting Flowers out there as the main guy without giving him a long-time MLB vet to help him out as a backup. I agree with what AJ said, Gimenez isn't enough of a help, and if you're going to be trotting out a veteran backup who will hit under .200 might as well get someone who can act as a coach of sorts. But I hope Nieto breaks camp with the team & looks halfway decent. If so then you have 2 options if Flowers gets DFAd sometime around late May/June instead of just one. Of course it would be nice if Hahn found a long-term solution sometime this year (trade deadline?) but not sure how realistic that is. There are prospects out there (i.e. Yankees) but I wonder how many guys are out there that the Sox have heavily scouted & actually like.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 08:20 AM) Hahn said you don't get many second chances and both are getting them this year. They either take it and go with it or become Jake at State Farm. He looks hot in khakis.

I'd be just as excited had Nieto or Phegley or Kevan Smith been named the starting catcher. At least this option makes the most sense because Phegley has options & it's Tyler's last shot. At least you're weeding out one of these guys with his move. Hopefully Nieto breaks as the backup because Gimenez is completely unnecessary.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Mar 17, 2014 -> 12:16 AM) Heck, if it means maximizing the talent on the team and liquidating it via trade, don't even bring a LOOGY north with us. Just take Cleto and hope to pump him up a little. Granted, it'll never happen. Veal is coming with. I'm just saying, I'd be totally fine if they forgot all about him if it optimizes tradeable assets. Jones Lindstrom Belisario Downs Boggs Veal Cleto = your bullpen You especially want Veal north because if the Sox do what you and I both think they are going to do, then we'll need 2 lefty spots from which to trade a guy. Especially if we want Downs to up his value, we'll need someone else to cover those 0.1 & 0.2IP appearances so Downs can rack up some innings.

Yeah Ray probably isn't happening if the Tigers really like him as much as they say they do. But the Sox should be thinking about 2016+ really, maybe with a shot at a WC slot in 2015 should things go exceptionally well. There shouldn't be any issues there. That said, the DBacks want a young C and will trade Gregorius/Owings. Seems a natural fit. Also Drew is still out there. I think this would be pretty unrealistic. Also Franklin is still out there. Lots of non-Sox options.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 15, 2014 -> 09:17 PM) If a 25 year old outfielder has a really good season and improves dramatically, you're going to turn around and trade him? If they had that kind of crystal ball, they would have traded Phil Humber, Bobby Jenks, Joe Crede, etc. Then you're only going to put yourself through another 2-3 year "transition/development" process with yet another young player with no guaranteed future results, ala Avisail Garcia. Hopefully not. But I'd much rather do that and get a difference maker later on than dump the guy for scraps at his lowest point of value. Dunn's value *could* go up from where it is now, but it's not going to ever get to the point where you're even remotely excited about the return. Viciedo OTOH could bring in a small haul, and DeAza? He's a great trade chip if he has a decent year. As a LF/CF he could plug in at one of those positions on another team, he could be a 4th OF, etc. DeAza brings a lefty stick, some pop, some speed, etc. & could fit very well in any number of situations for another club. Mainly because the Sox wouldn't need a ton back. DeAza is the type of player any team could acquire, but the Sox could still get value out of that. Just maybe no sexy names.

Yes.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Mar 15, 2014 -> 08:25 PM) I still like the concept. Having a rotation player who can play a position not just DH. Unfortunately, Kotsay was not the right piece. Agree, which is exactly why a DeAza/Viciedo DH situation with a legitimate CF in Jordan Danks as a backup makes us both a much better team AND gives us the chance of building the values of DeAza & Viciedo both to the point where Hahn can get something pretty nice back for our future.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 15, 2014 -> 07:52 PM) Which reminds me of how we needed to get lazy Jim Thome off the roster for the fact that he never changed up how he approached things at the plate and instead we needed a gamer like Mark Kotsay on the roster. DeAza > Old Jim Thome > Kotsay > wite > He who sucketh my balls

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QUOTE (Jake @ Mar 15, 2014 -> 06:50 PM) I like Jordan Danks a lot. I would rather have $16 million less based on a gamble on Adam Dunn than Jordan Danks. That would be a terrible gamble my friend. Dunn as a FA right now is lucky to get $2M. Hell, he'd be lucky to even get a guaranteed MLB contract. Check Thome, Jim for a recent example of a better hitter with a better career coming off a better season & still no one wants him. And what's Thome now anyway? 40 or so? Jim Thome still is a better hitter than Adam Dunn, no bulls***, I'd absolutely f***ing bet on it. And Thome's a better leader too and actually gets it. Baseball brain vs. donkey brain. Dump Adam & make the DH spot the Paulie & Jimmy farewell tour instead.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Mar 15, 2014 -> 08:12 AM) Maybe you should get a new friend. Why would he? To quote a great man, "Mama always said stupid is as stupid does." BTW re: another one of wite's many gems in this thread, actually I did see a heavily bearded crazy Jesus homeless man today in the Menards parking lot. True story. He looked to be pushing what was more of a kiosk than a shopping cart which had I think balloons or something all over it that spelled out "Jesus Loves Everyone" in big colorful letters. Now I could have been a dick like wite would have certainly been and asked him a bunch of bulls***ty questions just to get a laugh out of it, but unfortunately for me I actually feel for the homeless & I think that if your beliefs are all you have in this world and you're just out there trying to spread a positive message then good luck to you no matter how crazy those beliefs are. And BTW this guy had style too, it looked like he spent a lot of time working on his 4-wheeled Jesus kiosk & had probably spent a good amount of his diving time behind the nearby Hobby Lobby & Jo-Ann Fabrics stores. Maybe he hit Bed Bath & Beyond too, which is also something wite wouldn't do because I'm sure wite would rather go inside the store & pay full price for his overrated home & beauty products rather than get them free out of the trash like a more intelligent individual. And Adam Dunn is still terrible and still needs to go.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 14, 2014 -> 12:17 PM) Well, did we make any deals this offseason? So....what did we trade?

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Mar 14, 2014 -> 10:43 AM) Not only are you dreaming SS2k5 but I bet your pillow is 10x *harder than Dunn's psyche and your sleep number is higher than his batting average.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 14, 2014 -> 10:41 AM) This has been posted a million different times, and ignored by TUC in all of them. It is like having our very own Rush Limbaugh or Rachel Maddow to willfully ignore any contradictory facts. That's not a fact, he asked he a f***ing question!! AARAGGHGH!! God damn you guys I'll be back later.

Not only are you dreaming SS2k5 but I bet your pillow is 10x softer than Dunn's psyche and your sleep number is higher than his batting average.