caulfield12 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) Seven seasons in the minors and over 2,000 at-bats is hardly rushed... Bautista had 755 and 753 ops seasons his first two years in the majors with the Pirates. Garcia is well short of that. Edited December 3, 2016 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Well, if he truly did revamp his swing, old habits die hard. It's possible that he struggled to revert back to what's comfortable for him when he began to struggle. Honestly, it took me about 10 PAs before I thought we had made a mistake, but that's just my uneducated opinion. Ultimately, this really isn't the end of the world for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:09 PM) Jose Bautista. But it is pretty rare. That's probably the best example out there. I honestly can't think of a second player that comes close. Just shows how rare it is for a player to suddenly break-out in their 4th year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:10 PM) Seven seasons in the minors and over 2,000 at-bats is hardly rushed... Bautista had 755 and 753 ops seasons his first two years in the majors with the Pirates. Garcia is well short of that. The jump to AA is huge. Then to jump from that to the majors? Even bigger. 0 time in AAA and 55 games in AA is being rushed. He was a raw player from Latin America. Throw Minor League PA out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:14 PM) That's probably the best example out there. I honestly can't think of a second player that comes close. Just shows how rare it is for a player to suddenly break-out in their 4th year. Donaldson, Justin Turner, Encarnacion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:11 PM) Well, if he truly did revamp his swing, old habits die hard. It's possible that he struggled to revert back to what's comfortable for him when he began to struggle. Honestly, it took me about 10 PAs before I thought we had made a mistake, but that's just my uneducated opinion. Ultimately, this really isn't the end of the world for the time being. Old swing. His hands are not in a position to explode on the baseball. New swing August 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 05:31 PM) Yeah, having hope for a 25 year old former top prospect with insane power potential as a DH on a rebuilding team is insane! Insane I tell ya! Hi Avi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:01 PM) I'd love you to provide a single example of a player who was a sub-.700 career OPS hitter across three full seasons while providing negative defensive or base-running value that was given a fourth season and suddenly figured it out. You're gonna wanna go look up Justin Turner's career then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 05:19 PM) Old swing. His hands are not in a position to explode on the baseball. New swing August 2016 Yeah, I get it. Did he struggle to stick with it when he struggled in September? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:14 PM) That's probably the best example out there. I honestly can't think of a second player that comes close. Just shows how rare it is for a player to suddenly break-out in their 4th year. Offensively, Moustakis was pretty bad for a while. It is a longshot but changing the swing and approach is key. That is what happened with Bautista, and Nelson Cruz was a guy everyone passed on with the rule 5, changed his swing, now he is a force. If they are rebuilding and not experimenting when trying to win, it is not the most horrible thing bringing him back, although I personally would have non tendered him.. It most likely will be more of the same. Long bouts of cluelessness, with some weeks of looking like a star sprinkled in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:26 PM) Yeah, I get it. Did he struggle to stick with it when he struggled in September? Honestly, I don't know. I watched almost 0 live White Sox baseball in September. I'm willing to bet his approach is what faltered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:15 PM) Donaldson, Justin Turner, Encarnacion Donaldson put up a .884 OPS in his second full season which was in Oakland to boot. Turner put up an .897 OPS in his full season with the Dodgers and was still below a 1,000 plate appearances entering that season. Both of these guys provide defensive utility. Encarnacion, a better positional comp, put up a .831 OPS in his second season. Honestly, none of these are good comparisons to Avi's situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Blast from the past, Wimpy. He wasn't any good until his mid 30s. Probably being such a good guy was the only reason he was able to stick around befor he became a really good hitter for 3 or 4 seasons. He also changed his swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:31 PM) Donaldson put up a .884 OPS in his second full season which was in Oakland to boot. Turner put up an .897 OPS in his full season with the Dodgers and was still below a 1,000 plate appearances entering that season. Both of these guys provide defensive utility. Encarnacion, a better positional comp, put up a .831 OPS in his second season. Honestly, none of these are good comparisons to Avi's situation. My point was that Donaldson wasn't good in the Majors until age 27. He simply struggled in the Minors before making a change compared to Avi, who's been struggling on the big stage in the Majors. Check out Edwin's numbers in 2009 and 2010. Everyone and their mother was calling him a bust. Until he made a change. Albeit he had some success in the Majors previously. Edited December 3, 2016 by Ro Da Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:31 PM) Donaldson put up a .884 OPS in his second full season which was in Oakland to boot. Turner put up an .897 OPS in his full season with the Dodgers and was still below a 1,000 plate appearances entering that season. Both of these guys provide defensive utility. Encarnacion, a better positional comp, put up a .831 OPS in his second season. Honestly, none of these are good comparisons to Avi's situation. Avi most likely sucks, but when those guys were Avi's age, their MLB stats were far worse. It would take a miracle for him to get to their level with the bat. But the Sox are due for something working out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:35 PM) My point was that Donaldson wasn't good in the Majors until age 27. He simply struggled in the Minors before making a change compared to Avi, who's been struggling on the big stage in the Majors. Check out Edwin's numbers in 2009 and 2010. Everyone and their mother was calling him a bust. Until he made a change. Albeit he had some success in the Majors previously. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:36 PM) Avi most likely sucks, but when those guys were Avi's age, their MLB stats were far worse. It would take a miracle for him to get to their level with the bat. But the Sox are due for something working out. I get the age factor and even the lack of minor league seasoning, but like I said he's shown no progress. After 1,500 career plate appearances, I just don't see it happening. Anything is possible, but the odds are incredibly against Avi ever becoming an above average hitter at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 07:54 PM) I get the age factor and even the lack of minor league seasoning, but like I said he's shown no progress. After 1,500 career plate appearances, I just don't see it happening. Anything is possible, but the odds are incredibly against Avi ever becoming an above average hitter at this point. I agree with you completely. He most likely will amount to nothing. But I have a sliver of hope for him. And don't hate bringing a guy like him back for 3 million for all the reasons I've mentioned throughout this thread. I've just been arguing in Avi's favor because it was getting so much hate when the news broke, when in reality, it's not as horrid as many posters have made it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 08:00 PM) I agree with you completely. He most likely will amount to nothing. But I have a sliver of hope for him. And don't hate bringing a guy like him back for 3 million for all the reasons I've mentioned throughout this thread. I've just been arguing in Avi's favor because it was getting so much hate when the news broke, when in reality, it's not as horrid as many posters have made it out to be. So what is horrid? A DH who can't put up a 700 ops is useful how exactly? Maybe if we start comparing him to Thames, Joyce and Viciedo. Edited December 3, 2016 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 What's the definition of insanity again? Out with the old and in with the new. Liriano and Coats should get Avi's ab's, we at least haven't seen them fail over and over already. Hell, throw Engel out there. Just not Avi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 08:09 PM) What's the definition of insanity again? Out with the old and in with the new. Liriano and Coats should get Avi's ab's, we at least haven't seen them fail over and over already. Hell, throw Engel out there. Just not Avi. Lmao Coats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxforlife05 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Avi has 9 lives. KW has such a big ego he can't risk the 1% chance he gets embarrassed when Avi gets cut loose and ends up a decent player for another team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 08:05 PM) So what is horrid? A DH who can't put up a 700 ops is useful how exactly? Maybe if we start comparing him to Thames, Joyce and Viciedo. Yeah, announcing that a 3 million dollar signing of a 25 year old player is the worst thing that's ever happened in the history of White Sox baseball is pretty ridiculous. I'm not going to keep arguing with you guys. I've given facts and thoughts backing my opinion in about a dozen posts in this thread. You have yours, that's fine. I'm not gonna beat a dead dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxforlife05 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 08:14 PM) Yeah, announcing that a 3 million dollar signing of a 25 year old player is the worst thing that's ever happened in the history of White Sox baseball is pretty ridiculous. I'm not going to keep arguing with you guys. I've given facts and thoughts backing my opinion in about a dozen posts in this thread. You have yours, that's fine. I'm not gonna beat a dead dog. Want to name something he does well? I honestly can't think of anything and that is hard to do when it comes to major leaguers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMule2545 Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 08:17 PM) Want to name something he does well? I honestly can't think of anything and that is hard to do when it comes to major leaguers. Why does he have to "do something well" in the present to not be written off completely at his age? I don't want him to be a fielder at all.... I'm advocating him to be DH on a loser team. But you want something he does well so bad...he led the Majors in OF assists in 2015. Obviously the fielding blows - but hey, you asked. He isn't some talentless schmuck because he hasn't lived up to your guys' OPS standards against the greatest baseball players in the world by age 25. Edited December 3, 2016 by Ro Da Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 09:11 PM) Lmao Coats. Lmao, could you imagine if he had a sub .700 ops and was a detriment in the field? That would be hilarious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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