Yes, I acknowledged this, and it does explain why the Yankees specially wouldn't be willing to trade those guys. But the market value remains. There's no way Miller and Chapman are worth those (types of) prospects and Quintana somehow isn't.

 

It is about leverage. You had two teams trying to get to the WS and assets and a robust market starving for late inning arms which helped the Yankees extract large packages. This is why the Sox should not trade Q until they get everything they want, because at some point this summer a team is going to decide they are one SP away from making a WS run and the Sox can be well positioned to profit at that point.

It is about leverage. You had two teams trying to get to the WS and assets and a robust market starving for late inning arms which helped the Yankees extract large packages. This is why the Sox should not trade Q until they get everything they want, because at some point this summer a team is going to decide they are one SP away from making a WS run and the Sox can be well positioned to profit at that point.

 

I am confident this is Hahn's thought exactly. He'll get what he wants, or he'll hold. I am confident in that.

 

None of this accepting best offer BS that has been floated alot around here by the impatient.

If all the sox wanted was a top 30 position player, top 70 pitching prospect and two bullpen arms the sox could get that deal.

If all the sox wanted was a top 30 position player, top 70 pitching prospect and two bullpen arms the sox could get that deal.

 

I think it is pretty obvious that that is not what they want.

Yes, I acknowledged this, and it does explain why the Yankees specially wouldn't be willing to trade those guys. But the market value remains. There's no way Miller and Chapman are worth those (types of) prospects and Quintana somehow isn't.

Oh I agree that Q is worth those types of prospects, it's just that the Yanks are in a position to sit on their's due to their rebuild but the Pirates and Astros don't have that luxury with them trying to contend this year. This is what frustrates me about the speculation of Meadows and Bell being off the table. IMHO, Q is worth one of Meadows or Bell being apart of the return. However, I do prefer a trade with Houston over Pitt so from my POV Huntington is actually helping to facilitate a trade between the Sox and Astros.

Getting Newman as main hitter in a Q trade would be disappointing. Also, watching video of Martes pitch, he sure looks like a future reliever.

It stretched from July 1st onward tbh.

Right, and it wasn't clear at the time that a rebuild was in the cards.

So you'd be overturning your rotation once a year then? Come on man, if Kopech is destroying AAA next year and throwing 100 you're going to be happy with him being put in the bullpen? Hell I could write my post complaining about it already.

This is assuming they all develop and all develop at the same rate. What are the odds of that happening?

Discussion fodder:

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213069958/po...-jose-quintana/

 

edit: don't be mad at me when you get to the end and wonder why the hell you read that

This is assuming they all develop and all develop at the same rate. What are the odds of that happening?

When everyone but Kopech has already had stints at least in AAA and the big leagues? High. Every one of those guys will be arriving in the big leagues by the end of 2018 unless they go down for a full season with an injury, and one thing we both have confidence in this organization doing is avoiding TJS.

 

These aren't guys starting off at A-ball. These are guys who are going to get a stint in the big leagues by 2018 even if they have poor starts to 2017. Rodon, Fulmer, Giolito, and Turner will be in your rotation early in the 2018 season at the latest, and Kopech most likely by the end of the year, if not to start 2019. Glasnow will be in a big league rotation on opening day of this year.

Easier to do than trying to spend on a lineup: 9 (8 in NL) spots vs 5.

At least 6 for the rotation (not all will be healthy even if they develop well) Also 6 for the bullpen. The ones that don't develop into good starters can go to the pen.

When everyone but Kopech has already had stints at least in AAA and the big leagues? High. Every one of those guys will be arriving in the big leagues by the end of 2018 unless they go down for a full season with an injury, and one thing we both have confidence in this organization doing is avoiding TJS.

 

These aren't guys starting off at A-ball. These are guys who are going to get a stint in the big leagues by 2018 even if they have poor starts to 2017. Rodon, Fulmer, Giolito, and Turner will be in your rotation early in the 2018 season at the latest, and Kopech most likely by the end of the year, if not to start 2019. Glasnow will be in a big league rotation on opening day of this year.

 

Lopez?

Lopez?

Yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't know why I can't commit his name to memory and now I feel dumb.

Lopez?

 

If Turner is in our rotation in 2018, something really crazy happened.

When everyone but Kopech has already had stints at least in AAA and the big leagues? High. Every one of those guys will be arriving in the big leagues by the end of 2018 unless they go down for a full season with an injury, and one thing we both have confidence in this organization doing is avoiding TJS.

 

These aren't guys starting off at A-ball. These are guys who are going to get a stint in the big leagues by 2018 even if they have poor starts to 2017. Rodon, Fulmer, Giolito, and Turner will be in your rotation early in the 2018 season at the latest, and Kopech most likely by the end of the year, if not to start 2019. Glasnow will be in a big league rotation on opening day of this year.

So if they trade Q that will be a rotation of:

 

rodon

Giolito

Glasnow

Lopez

?

 

For the guys they will have to start seeing in the MLB.

 

This would be the rotation at the end of 2018. Odds are that Rodon will be gone shortly after with Boras being his agent. There is plenty of room even if they all develop into good MLB pitchers, whicvh with the control issues of a few of them, it's not guarateed.

So if they trade Q that will be a rotation of:

 

rodon

Giolito

Glasnow

Lopez

?

 

For the guys they will have to start seeing in the MLB.

 

This would be the rotation at the end of 2018. Odds are that Rodon will be gone shortly after with Boras being his agent. There is plenty of room even if they all develop into good MLB pitchers, whicvh with the control issues of a few of them, it's not guarateed.

I would say Kopech has that 5th spot by the end of 2018, but even if he doesn't, you've forgotten Carson Fulmer.

 

You're fully correct that it isn't guaranteed that they will develop into MLB pitchers, but you are missing how we will actually know that - it will require big league innings. If they do not get big league innings then they will not develop into good MLB pitchers. That's where the limits come from. Yes, a couple of those guys could flop, but they're not going to flop against AAA hitters, and even if they do you're still going to move them up and challenge them eventually.

I would say Kopech has that 5th spot by the end of 2018, but even if he doesn't, you've forgotten Carson Fulmer.

 

You're fully correct that it isn't guaranteed that they will develop into MLB pitchers, but you are missing how we will actually know that - it will require big league innings. If they do not get big league innings then they will not develop into good MLB pitchers. That's where the limits come from. Yes, a couple of those guys could flop, but they're not going to flop against AAA hitters, and even if they do you're still going to move them up and challenge them eventually.

I get it. I'm just not convinced that all of them are going to solve all of the control issues even in the minors. So they will just bring up the ones for the rotation that show the most promise and put the others in the pen in the MLB. If they all pan out for the MLB and don't get injured, they will have too many.

 

However, this also means they're stock will have risen, because of the success, and they can trade them for better position prospects at that time. So right now because of the poor system the Sox should just take the best talent they can get, regardless of position.

I would say Kopech has that 5th spot by the end of 2018, but even if he doesn't, you've forgotten Carson Fulmer.

 

You're fully correct that it isn't guaranteed that they will develop into MLB pitchers, but you are missing how we will actually know that - it will require big league innings. If they do not get big league innings then they will not develop into good MLB pitchers. That's where the limits come from. Yes, a couple of those guys could flop, but they're not going to flop against AAA hitters, and even if they do you're still going to move them up and challenge them eventually.

 

I think it's the kopech part that I disagree with mostly. Kopech is legit two years away just getting arm strength up. He just hasn't pitched much. So if he is up toward end of 2018 bullpen sounds pretty real regardless.

 

Dunning is A ball.

 

And Lopez/Fulmer have legitimate starter or bullpen? questions that we would have 2 years to answer then.

 

And potential TJS.

 

If we acquired 4 position player prospects i'd be happy but I don't think we are screwed with pitcher spots yet, not with the likelihood a few are in a ball and we know how big the AA jump is.

If Turner is in our rotation in 2018, something really crazy happened.

 

Jacob or Trea?

 

Cause maybe we trade Q to the Nats and pitch Trea Turner.

I think it's the kopech part that I disagree with mostly. Kopech is legit two years away just getting arm strength up. He just hasn't pitched much. So if he is up toward end of 2018 bullpen sounds pretty real regardless.

 

Dunning is A ball.

 

And Lopez/Fulmer have legitimate starter or bullpen? questions that we would have 2 years to answer then.

 

And potential TJS.

 

If we acquired 4 position player prospects i'd be happy but I don't think we are screwed with pitcher spots yet, not with the likelihood a few are in a ball and we know how big the AA jump is.

That's why I said I'll take one pitcher back, but I am hesitant on that because the logjam is building. If you take back a top prospect as the 2nd guy also, even if he's way down in A-ball, then you're counting on something bad to happen to several of them by 2019 and that's not a very good use of resources.

I think it's the kopech part that I disagree with mostly. Kopech is legit two years away just getting arm strength up. He just hasn't pitched much. So if he is up toward end of 2018 bullpen sounds pretty real regardless.

 

Dunning is A ball.

 

And Lopez/Fulmer have legitimate starter or bullpen? questions that we would have 2 years to answer then.

 

And potential TJS.

 

If we acquired 4 position player prospects i'd be happy but I don't think we are screwed with pitcher spots yet, not with the likelihood a few are in a ball and we know how big the AA jump is.

This makes sense. And as I said if they all pan out the value should be through the roof because they all fixed their issues. That will create a really good rotation AND a surplus of talent to trade for really good hitters

That's why I said I'll take one pitcher back, but I am hesitant on that because the logjam is building. If you take back a top prospect as the 2nd guy also, even if he's way down in A-ball, then you're counting on something bad to happen to several of them by 2019 and that's not a very good use of resources.

That is just good planning with pitchers. The mistake would be to count on all of them succeeding and remaining healthy.

That is just good planning with pitchers. The mistake would be to count on all of them succeeding and remaining healthy.

I very much disagree. Put 5 out there and you expect they'll need time, and you expect that just from draftees/signees you'll continue to have some supply of pitching coming up more gradually. And if 1 of them falls flat...not only is finding a 5th starter typically fairly cheap, but you don't use them in the playoffs anyway.

That's why I said I'll take one pitcher back, but I am hesitant on that because the logjam is building. If you take back a top prospect as the 2nd guy also, even if he's way down in A-ball, then you're counting on something bad to happen to several of them by 2019 and that's not a very good use of resources.

 

Come on, since the only benchmark we have is cubs on this board, that's like saying drafting Schwarber was just counting on failure of their hitting prospects.

 

You get talent because they are talented.

Is Kopech really that far away? I was under the assumption that he would be in Chicago some time in 2018.