They've attacked SK recently in 2010, killing 46 people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking

 

And we/the international community didn't respond, or couldn't, because we/the international community allowed them to develop the bomb.

 

North Korea denied that it was responsible for the sinking.[7] North Korea's further offer to aid an open investigation was disregarded.[8] China dismissed the official scenario presented by South Korea and the United States as not credible.[9] An investigation by the Russian Navy also did not concur with the report.[10] The United Nations Security Council made a Presidential Statement condemning the attack but without identifying the attacker.[11]

 

Not exactly a clear-cut case and it wouldn't be the first time the US seriously misattributed the sinking of a ship.

 

 

further:

 

In late May 2010, Bruce Cumings, Distinguished Service Professor in History at the University of Chicago and an expert on Korean affairs, commented that the sinking should be regarded as part of a two-sided tense situation in a "no-man's land" which has led to previous incidents.[16] He noted a confrontation in November 2009, in which several North Korean sailors died, and an additional incident in 1999, when 30 North Koreans were killed and 70 wounded when their ship sank.[16]

 

In both incidents, the North Koreans were the first to open fire.[16] In the 1999 incident the South Koreans escalated matters by initiating a campaign of boat 'bumping' in order to stop what the South saw as a violation of its maritime borders. Considering these previous incidents, Cumings said that the Cheonan sinking was "ripped out of context, the context of a continuing war that has never ended."[16]

 

This wasn't a case of obvious and overt aggression on the part of NK, and it definitely wasn't the first move in an offensive actions.

Edited August 9, 20178 yr by StrangeSox

They've attacked SK recently in 2010, killing 46 people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking

 

And we/the international community didn't respond, or couldn't, because we/the international community allowed them to develop the bomb.

What should the US have done in that situation?

Not exactly a clear-cut case and it wouldn't be the first time the US seriously misattributed the sinking of a ship.

 

Sweden, Australia and Britain were in on the fix too?

Sweden, Australia and Britain were in on the fix too?

 

Potentially being wrong doesn't mean there was a "fix."

 

Either way, the case is clearly disputed and it wouldn't form the grounds for restarting the Korean War.

What should the US have done in that situation?

 

Not sure, but bmag's claim that force would be met with force when it comes to NK isn't true. They hold the trump card and they know it.

Not sure, but bmag's claim that force would be met with force when it comes to NK isn't true. They hold the trump card and they know it.

 

If North Korea declared war on South Korea, they would be met with force. Your gulf of tonkin scenario being met with war seems a little trigger happy.

 

We have been performing cyber sabotage on north korea's weapon systems for years. Should they declare war on us for that?

Trump’s Threat to North Korea Was Improvised

 

BRIDGEWATER, N.J. — President Trump delivered his “fire and fury” threat to North Korea on Tuesday with arms folded, jaw set and eyes flitting on what appeared to be a single page of talking points set before him on the conference table at his New Jersey golf resort.

 

The piece of paper, as it turned out, was a fact sheet on the opioid crisis he had come to talk about, and his ominous warning to Pyongyang in was entirely improvised, according to several people with direct knowledge of what unfolded. In discussions with advisers beforehand, he had not run the specific language by them.

 

The inflammatory words quickly escalated the confrontation with North Korea to a new, alarming level and were followed shortly by a new threat from North Korea to obliterate an American air base on Guam. In the hours since, the president’s advisers have sought to calm the situation, with Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson assuring Americans that they “should sleep at night” without worrying about an imminent war.

 

But the president’s ad-libbed threat reflected an evolving and still unsettled approach to one of the most dangerous hot spots in the world as Mr. Trump and his team debate diplomatic, economic and military options.

 

"Kelly will finally be the one who reigns in Trump!"

 

Ron Howard narrator voice: "He Didn't"

 

Neither camp advocated language like “fire and fury,” according to the people involved. Among those taken by surprise, they said, was John F. Kelly, the retired four-star Marine general who has just taken over as White House chief of staff and has been with the president at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J., for his working vacation.

 

 

The "calming influence" generals he's surrounded himself with all want war War WAR.

We once blew up an Iranian passenger plane with 290 people on board in Iranian airspace. Should Iran have bombed us?

It's a good thing that multiple people within the administration and Congress have to repeatedly say "oh just ignore the President," right?

Not sure, but bmag's claim that force would be met with force when it comes to NK isn't true. They hold the trump card and they know it.

You seem to have a very clear opinion on what the US has or hasnt done correctly. I just want to understand your position on what they should have done. Thats all. Otherwise its just noise.

We once blew up an Iranian passenger plane with 290 people on board in Iranian airspace. Should Iran have bombed us?

What does this have to do with the North Korea issue?

What does this have to do with the North Korea issue?

 

It was in regards to NK supposedly sinking a SK boat, killing 46 people. That something like that would be justification for attacking NK.

 

 

So I was using it in that regard.

After reading all of the back and forth between everyone the last few days, i think it is very apparent that there is no sure thing reaction to what we are seeing unfold. people on both sides see the possible loss of life, they just see it on separate continents. NK has been trying to gain access to a nuke for a long time, multiple administrations have tried to prevent that, and unfortunately that just was something we could not prevent no matter what. There is no good answer here. We are dealing with a secretive, reclusive, unhinged dictator. The problem now is we have a boorish, loud, unprepared and frankly unqualified president who seems to be fanning the flames of war. Personally, i dont want war first, thinking later. But i dont have an answer. Frankly, nobody knows the answer here, we all are just speculating from the outside with very little knowledge of what is really going on.

 

Hopefully cooler heads can prevail and loss of life can be prevented

I don't have any more problem with NK having a nuclear bomb than any other country.

Nobody else is threatening to use them. NK is telling us to our face they will bomb Guam, they will bomb us. Hawaii is getting prepared for a nuke being thrown at them in which they'll have 20 minutes to respond. This is a whole new ballgame.

The tone of the NY Times article pissed me off today. It said Trump's comments led to NK issuing a threat toward Guam. Trump sucks we all know that, but if some media are going to imply N. Korea is reasonable at all in this area, this is almost treasonous. It's also scary to think NK not only will lob nukes at us, Hawaii and Guam but you can bet sell the nukes to somebody who will immediately use them on us.

They are saying they will use them in retaliation, not as a first-strike.

 

A couple years back Obama refused to commit the US to a no-nuclear-first-strike policy IIRC

...you can bet sell the nukes to somebody who will immediately use them on us.

 

Walk me through how that scenario actually plays out. Do they put it on a truck and drive it over to Syria? Do they load it on a boat? None of our spy intel would ever catch the transfer of the weapon and take it out?

 

Walk me through how that scenario actually plays out. Do they put it on a truck and drive it over to Syria? Do they load it on a boat? None of our spy intel would ever catch the transfer of the weapon and take it out?

Sounds like the plot to Team America: World Police.

Hopefully cooler heads can prevail and loss of life can be prevented

More than loss of life, but the end of life as we know it. Once nukes start falling you are talking millions upon millions of people dying and many countries/locales unable to sustain life any more because of nuclear fallout. Again, the question is, does Russia or China care. If they do not care about this new world about to be thrust upon us, it truly could be the end of the world as we know it. Trump and Jong Un have the power to get it started.

Sounds like the plot to Team America: World Police.

Walk me through how that scenario actually plays out. Do they put it on a truck and drive it over to Syria? Do they load it on a boat? None of our spy intel would ever catch the transfer of the weapon and take it out?

 

Nope, because the US has the most incompetent intelligence community on the planet.

Sounds like the plot to Team America: World Police.

 

Or Pakistan selling to other countries?

My solution is to open diplomatic relations with another country. Work out a peace agreement. This idea that American has had an "anti-war policy" towards NK is totally wrong.

Like I said, the only hope is to actually let China and Russia solve this issue and there's no reason to believe they care. They'll just wait and see what happens and respond in whatever is in their best interests to take over the world. Scary.

 

Dude, North Korea isn't just another country. It's run a pyscopathic dictator. This idea of negotiated peace is absurd. They want to become a serious nuclear power and will do so until they have the nuclear capabilities to hit mainland US. No amount of aid or sanctions will change that.

Exactly and this dictator may want to go out in a blaze of glory. Why wouldn't he? If things start getting toasty for him ever, instead of shooting himself in the head he blows up Guam, blows up South Korea and blows up the US Mainland. We either need China's help in this escalating situation fast or somehow develop a defense system in which we can blow the nukes out of the sky. We're f***ed.

 

So your answer is to be held hostage by a madman forever? And put the mainland US at risk? Is that really what you're saying? I don't think you're taking this threat seriously. The day Kim feels his days are numbered, whether driven by us, or China, or another vested party, who is to say he doesn't launch some nukes at the US assuming he has the capability? This guy is not a rationale human being living in a rationale world. He kills on the regular to retain his grip on power and he just may want to go out in a blaze of glory assuming he knows that power will soon be lost. Under no circumstance should we allow him to further develop his nuclear capabilities.

This is a real fear of mine. But there is no way the USA can solve this problem. Jong Un hates America and you can bet his ultimate goal is to hit us with nukes.

 

I haven't read the ENTIRE thread so I don't know if the answer is in there somewhere but here's my question...

 

Does anyone know what North Korea ultimately WANTS?

 

Do they want to rule the world? Cuz that ain't happening.

 

Do they want to be accepted as a major power? Cuz that ain't happening either.

 

Or do they just want the entire Korean peninsula? Cuz that ain't happening either.

Good questions. I think they simply want to be on the same plane as countries with nukes. The ability to hit the USA with nukes. The problem is with a madman like Jong Un, at any point he can say, 'f*** it; I'm launching some nukes at America' just for the hell of it.

Still need 1) reliable ICBM launch and 2) reentry, which is a big technical challenge, but yeah, it's one step closer.

 

The unanimous UN sanctions announced yesterday probably won't do anything. They're dead set on getting a deliverable bomb. Short of a military invasion that will cost hundreds of thousands of lives along with trillions of dollars, I'm not really sure what anyone can do.

 

I also don't really think NK would ever use a nuclear weapon in a first strike because they know it would be the end of them. I also hope that they have a decent command and control structure so that a single insane megalomaniac ruler doesn't have the sole, unchallengable power to launch nuclear weapons.

Your last comment regarding hope is completely nuts. It stands against how their dictator operates. Clearly he can and will do whatever it is he wants to do.

Your last comment regarding hope is completely nuts. It stands against how their dictator operates. Clearly he can and will do whatever it is he wants to do.

100% this. If Kim gives the orders to launch, you know that nuke is launching. Dictators aren't typically big on checks & balances.

FYI that is also the US's nuclear launch system. There are zero checks on the President's power and it is set up to be executed as quickly as possible. The people in the chain of command down to the guys turning the keys are screened to make sure they will follow orders without question and without hesitation given the gravity of their mission. A Navy fleet commander recently stated that he's willing and ready to launch his nukes on China if given the order by Trump.

 

So that was really riffing on how precarious our nuclear situation is under normal scenarios let alone one where a madman wanna-be dictator who's mused about using nuclear weapons on multiple occasions and gets extremely angry and lashes out at the smallest perceived slights controls over 6,000 nuclear warheads.

 

So yeah, I honestly do hope that the people in the DPRK's chain of command for launching nuclear weapons have more power than the people in the US's chain of command. That doesn't mean I think they do, just that I hope they do.

 

e: for reference: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverythi...hats-by-design/

Edited August 9, 20178 yr by StrangeSox