Hopefully Engel keeps hitting and can push himself back over .200 by the end of the year.

So regarding Engel's lukewarm defensive metrics...I trust this more

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/outs_above_a...2017&min=50

 

God I love baseball savant.

So regarding Engel's lukewarm defensive metrics...I trust this more

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/outs_above_a...2017&min=50

 

God I love baseball savant.

 

The interesting bit there is that it rates Avi as completely nuetral. 0.

The interesting bit there is that it rates Avi as completely nuetral. 0.

He rated a 0 in 2016 as well. And this data doesn't include the impact of the arm, right? Just catches made/not made.

He rated a 0 in 2016 as well. And this data doesn't include the impact of the arm, right? Just catches made/not made.

 

Correct

The interesting bit there is that it rates Avi as completely nuetral. 0.

It also suggests he is better than Mike Trout out there who is at -4 .

It also suggests he is better than Mike Trout out there who is at -4 .

Although Trout plays the much tougher position.

It also suggests he is better than Mike Trout out there who is at -4 .

Mike Trout's defense has been overrated for a long time, IMO

He rated a 0 in 2016 as well. And this data doesn't include the impact of the arm, right? Just catches made/not made.

The reason the popular metrics don't like Engel is solely because of his arm, apparently- but it's puzzling because his arm must be a complete and utter liability in order for it to offset his glove by so much.

The reason the popular metrics don't like Engel is solely because of his arm, apparently- but it's puzzling because his arm must be a complete and utter liability in order for it to offset his glove by so much.

 

That's not totally true. His range metrics were worse than Leury at least last I checked.

Do those "Outs Above Average" account for his having not played the whole year? I assume that those are the actual numbers, not projections. If so, to have 11 is pretty good, for a guy who has really only played about 1/2 of a season.

That's not totally true. His range metrics were worse than Leury at least last I checked.

But doesn't Leury also have very good range?

13 pages on Engel. That's interesting. Last night Renteria praised him but said he was a work in progress

And, I agree with Renteria. That was my point. He is indeed a work in progress, which is what "the possibilities" infers.

He'll be a work in progress until 2050 at the rate he's hitting.

I've seen enough. Cordell can't get healthy soon enough.

Give up the ghost Lillian. I think its impossible to "learn" to hit MLB pitching. You can or you can't. It's like sales.

After seeing the shitty defense of Leury, Palka, Delmonico and how they've cost the young pitching countless runs, I'm fine with Engel for the time being.

56 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

After seeing the shitty defense of Leury, Palka, Delmonico and how they've cost the young pitching countless runs, I'm fine with Engel for the time being.

He has a .482 OPS. I'd be fine with anyone else.

Hell put Abreu in CF and I'm sure you'd be able to extract more value. The other problem I have with Engel is he isn't a prospect, he isn't a bounce back guy, he's basically someone who we are wasting time with.

When you look at successful rebuilds one thing they do is they put interesting guys in that either can bounce back or 4A who have good stats in the minors but have yet to be given a shot. Engel has had his shot. His Minor league stats suck almost as much as his ML ones.

People talk about him like he's some sort of interesting prospect he's 26. He's had 400 AB in the ML where he's managed to hit .509. If the coaching staff and FO feels he still has potential fine send him down to AAA where he doesn't get called up until he proves he can hit. Honestly right now Engel is the worst player in baseball at the ML.

9 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

He'll be a work in progress until 2050 at the rate he's hitting.

I've seen enough. Cordell can't get healthy soon enough.

Cordell can’t hit either. A couple of years from now we will forget these guys even existed. I had some hopes for Engel, but after seeing him last year, realized those were pipe dreams. He got some hits in spring training and a few took the Kool aid. But it couldn’t be more apparent he cannot hit. If he was 22 or 23 I would think maybe there is a slim chance. 

On 9/15/2017 at 3:11 PM, Jose Abreu said:

He rated a 0 in 2016 as well. And this data doesn't include the impact of the arm, right? Just catches made/not made.

The reason the popular metrics don't like Engel is solely because of his arm, apparently- but it's puzzling because his arm must be a complete and utter liability in order for it to offset his glove by so much.

I know Engel has the reputation of having a pus arm. He actually made a couple of really good throws last night. 

I think I mentioned this before but when I was at a season ticket holder q and a with RH last year, Engel came up. RH mentioned they were just speaking about him right before he came to meet us. He said Renteria loved him, didn’t care if he hit at all. RH said while he loved the glove, he was going to have to improve at the plate.

Edited May 20, 20187 yr by Dick Allen

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Cordell can’t hit either. A couple of years from now we will forget these guys even existed. I had some hopes for Engel, but after seeing him last year, realized those were pipe dreams. He got some hits in spring training and a few took the Kool aid. But it couldn’t be more apparent he cannot hit. If he was 22 or 23 I would think maybe there is a slim chance. 

Cordell has at least hit in the minor leagues. Engel has never hit anywhere except a couple of spring training games and low A ball.

I think the point is neither of them will be the Sox CF when the team is good.  Robert, Gonzalez, Basabe, and Rutherford all have more potential and Booker and Call are also possibilities.  Cordell needed to get up while there was opportunity.  That window is rapidly closing.

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

I think the point is neither of them will be the Sox CF when the team is good.  Robert, Gonzalez, Basabe, and Rutherford all have more potential and Booker and Call are also possibilities.  Cordell needed to get up while there was opportunity.  That window is rapidly closing.

All those guys are still a few years away though. Engel is not a big league hitter. I hope that they sign a stop gap veteran next year-a Jon Jay type.

3 minutes ago, Replacement Level Poster said:

All those guys are still a few years away though. Engel is not a big league hitter. I hope that they sign a stop gap veteran next year-a Jon Jay type.

I can see that.  Personally, I would just as soon see Leury out there.  I don’t want anyone blocked.  At least one of those guys will be up by August next year.  I predict Robert, but Basabe will probably finish the year in AA and Gonzalez could be a very fast mover.  3 year college starter with a good hit tool.

OK, I give up. I thought that he had made a significant enough change in his mechanics and approach, to get him to the point that he might be a passable number 9 hitter, with great speed and defense. The buzz around Spring Training, which lauded his new approach and how good he looked, gave me hope that he might realize his potential. Then, he had a very good Spring. That, coupled with the fact that he really had been a football player, and needed time to learn to hit, were all "straws" to grasp onto. Unfortunately, he has really struggled, so far this season, and may be just about out of chances. 

As others have said, whoever plays CF now, is probably merely a "place holder,' with the promising crop of farm hands, who will eventually vie for the job.