6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know him personally but I don't think Fulmer needs a "wake up call", I think the Sox have screwed with him way too much. His "Wake up call" was being shelled when he was called up to save the 2016 bullpen (Thanks Rick!). Since then he's been doing everything people have asked him to do to develop a more consistent delivery, he has made delivery changes a number of times, but his delivery is wild as a starting point and there's been so many attempts to alter it, with no time to see if changes work, that the end result is him getting shelled every first inning. 

He has to get into a single rotation, a single release point, that he can repeat, and throw strikes from. The stuff is there, but the Sox haven't been able to harvest it by turning good stuff into a consistent pitcher because of the choices they made in 2016, and they are still paying for it here.

I really don't think the single release point and repeatability is the primary issue. Many of the walks yesterday had a consistent grouping of pitches. He just needs to make some adjustment to bring that grouping in the zone. That is what he needs to work on.

7 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Wait, what?

I was told he "had nothing left to prove at the AAA level." How can such a move be possible? And what about "development at the MLB level?"

 

I am shocked. Shocked!

Who in the world said he nothing left to prove in AAA?

7 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Wait, what?

I was told he "had nothing left to prove at the AAA level." How can such a move be possible? And what about "development at the MLB level?"

 

I am shocked. Shocked!

Nobody said that here, his AAA numbers were atrocious

I will say this, thank god we have a fourth option with this kid.   Normally this would be a make or break year for him, but for whatever reasons he’s eligible to go to Charlotte for the 2019 season.  And honestly, I have no idea what the answer is for the kid but I’m more than fine with him spending another season and a half in AAA getting some much needed development.  In hindsight, it was pretty absurd to think Cooper could magically fix him at the major league level given him horrific minor league numbers.

In college, Fulmer got a lot of outs with pitches out of the strike zone; major league pitchers do that too, but only after first setting them up with pinpoint command early in the count.  Fulmer didn't have to do that in college. Fulmer does a glove-pump in the middle of his windup; it's like a twitch.  Hard to see how you can have consistency doing that.

Cooper's not for everybody; the Sox have good minor league pitching coaches, so it may help him.
I don't think Covey's necessarily a disaster either- he had under 40 pitches above A ball prior to last season, and the Sox didn't try to hide him in the bullpen by using him sparingly; they threw him out there.  He may end up being useful, especially on this team.

Edited May 19, 20187 yr by GreenSox

Luckily plenty of pitchers who have become successful in the MLB have struggled mightily in the majors. Go back to AAA, work on your mechanics, get your confidence back and hopefully he will be ready to come back in July or August. 

7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

If he can't throw strikes with his stuff then short stints won't work either. He isn't great in many innings and it's only 7 inning batches, but right now this year, his worst ERA is in the first inning. If he's going to be a successful reliever, even if his delivery wanders with time...he HAS to be able to come in throwing strikes, and he can't do that right now. If he could come in and throw strikes for 1 inning, then he'll be a top closer in this league with his delivery and the movement on his stuff, but he can't do that right now.

This kid is nowhere close to being a top closer in this league. Its not just his control issues. His stuff just isn't that good. Whoever scouted Fulmer is bad at his job. The better pitcher on Vandy was Buehler. Another top 10 pick that the Sox would redo in a heartbeat if they could.  

He needs reps worse than anyone on this roster. Keep in mind he has less professional innings thrown than Michael Kopech does. You can see the lack of consistency from pitch to pitch. Ideally he would have stayed here a year. He really regressed his last couple of starts, and didn't really leave them any choice.  If you are consistently struggling to get out of the 1st, you are putting extra strain on all of the rest of the arms.

6 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said:

Luckily plenty of pitchers who have become successful in the MLB have struggled mightily in the majors. Go back to AAA, work on your mechanics, get your confidence back and hopefully he will be ready to come back in July or August. 

I have a feeling we will be saying this same thing about Mr. Giolito very soon as well. 

7 minutes ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said:

I have a feeling we will be saying this same thing about Mr. Giolito very soon as well. 

Unfortunately, you are probably right. 

26 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

In college, Fulmer got a lot of outs with pitches out of the strike zone; major league pitchers do that too, but only after first setting them up with pinpoint command early in the count.  Fulmer didn't have to do that in college. Fulmer does a glove-pump in the middle of his windup; it's like a twitch.  Hard to see how you can have consistency doing that.

Cooper's not for everybody; the Sox have good minor league pitching coaches, so it may help him.
I don't think Covey's necessarily a disaster either- he had under 40 pitches above A ball prior to last season, and the Sox didn't try to hide him in the bullpen by using him sparingly; they threw him out there.  He may end up being useful, especially on this team.

Maybe so, but he is nowhere near the zone. Division 1 hitters aren’t major leaguers, but would have no problem laying off his offerings now. Something has gone totally south with him. Hopefully it is just confidence, but the more he performs like he is performing the lesser it appears there is a decent chance at recovery.

Edited May 19, 20187 yr by Dick Allen

Fulmer has not shown very much improvement since he was Drafted.  The trajectory of his development is a flat line, not an upward slope.

At times, he tends to  look better than he is, retiring hitters by being wild in and out of the strike zone. 

He has a chance to make it, but the window for major league players is a small one, and his window  is partially closed already.

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

That is the right move even if he winds up passed and never gets a rotation slot. He needs to repeat his delivery and develop consistency, after having people working on his delivery since he was drafted he can't do that without innings. 

I agree with you Balta,if this kid ever puts it together he would be a real solid option at starter.Even if you completely rebuild his mechanics,trot him out there as a starter until he makes it or is out of baseball. Let him try and try and try down there without the pressure of MLB results.

Edited May 19, 20187 yr by TheTruth05

53 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

I agree with you Balta,if this kid ever puts it together he would be a real solid option at starter.Even if you completely rebuild his mechanics,trot him out there as a starter until he makes it or is out of baseball. Let him try and try and try down there without the pressure of MLB results.

+1

This is too bad for the organization. I hope the kid can figure it out. His fastball has a lot of life. He just can’t command it, or even throw strikes enough. I also noticed when he is ahead 1-2 or 0-2 he doesn’t have the ability to put the guys away. He’s walked an inordinate amount of batters which he was ahead 0-2; 1-2. Did the Sox change his delivery completely from Vandy? 

48 minutes ago, Replacement Level Poster said:

This is too bad for the organization. I hope the kid can figure it out. His fastball has a lot of life. He just can’t command it, or even throw strikes enough. I also noticed when he is ahead 1-2 or 0-2 he doesn’t have the ability to put the guys away. He’s walked an inordinate amount of batters which he was ahead 0-2; 1-2. Did the Sox change his delivery completely from Vandy? 

It seems like they aren’t changing it as much as trying to give him some sort of repeatability.  He doesn’t do the same thing every time and it messes him up

Pitching coach Don Cooper said at the start of the season Fulmer had been unfairly criticized by Sox fans for his struggles, which come with youth.

“When he first came to the big leagues (in 2016), we put him in the bullpen,” Cooper said. “He had a couple of good outings and a couple of lemons. But everybody was writing Carson Fulmer off: ‘Can he do this? Can’t do this, can’t do that.’ All of that negative crap.

“Then he had a start against Minnesota and couldn’t get out of the first. ‘Oh, Carson can’t do this and can’t do that. He sucks.’ After one freaking outing. Come on. That’s not even fair to anybody.”

Fulmer got his shot to prove fans wrong, but couldn’t show any consistency, as evidenced by an 8.07 ERA in nine appearances, including eight starts.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-michael-kopech-carson-fulmer-20180519-story.html

This comes from the same organization that gave Daniel Hudson three whole starts before trading him to Arizona...

 

 

24 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Pitching coach Don Cooper said at the start of the season Fulmer had been unfairly criticized by Sox fans for his struggles, which come with youth.

“When he first came to the big leagues (in 2016), we put him in the bullpen,” Cooper said. “He had a couple of good outings and a couple of lemons. But everybody was writing Carson Fulmer off: ‘Can he do this? Can’t do this, can’t do that.’ All of that negative crap.

“Then he had a start against Minnesota and couldn’t get out of the first. ‘Oh, Carson can’t do this and can’t do that. He sucks.’ After one freaking outing. Come on. That’s not even fair to anybody.”

Fulmer got his shot to prove fans wrong, but couldn’t show any consistency, as evidenced by an 8.07 ERA in nine appearances, including eight starts.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-white-sox-michael-kopech-carson-fulmer-20180519-story.html

This comes from the same organization that gave Daniel Hudson three whole starts before trading him to Arizona...

 

 

Dude, Hudson’s arm blew out twice after that trade.  If the White Sox kept him you would be criticizing them for hanging on to a guy who clearly would have had arm issues 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hudsoda01.shtml

try looking at his career before acting like the Sox made some dreadful mistake trading away Hudson.  He was never the same again

15 hours ago, tlongo81@gmail.com said:

You gotta just keep running them out there. They have nothing left to learn in AAA. 

 

3 hours ago, reiks12 said:

Nobody said that here, his AAA numbers were atrocious

Yes, I agree that his numbers as a pro have sucked a horse's ass. But, tlongo81@gmail.com posted the above in the gamethread last night. Dontcha just love "development at the MLB level?"

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who in the world said he nothing left to prove in AAA?

As noted above, tlongo81@gmail.com shared that in the gamethread, after another poster recommended moving Fulmer [and possibly Giolito] down to Charlotte.

Edited May 19, 20187 yr by Two-Gun Pete

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Fulmer has a 4,96 career ERA in the minors and a career 5::58 ERA in AAA. He wasn’t ruined by being rushed. He just had no business being in the major leagues. Maybe something clicks. He has had some flashes of brilliance. I just don’t see how you can go from a guy who even can be considered a top 10draft pick to where he is now.

If he had "no business being in the major leagues," isn't that the textbook definition of being rushed? By the way, I happen to agree that he had no business being here, he NEVER earned his promotion, and it was only the front office's stupidity and collectively inflated ego that made him be brought up in 2016. 

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

He needs reps worse than anyone on this roster. Keep in mind he has less professional innings thrown than Michael Kopech does. You can see the lack of consistency from pitch to pitch. 

Again, doesn't this kinda point towards being rushed up?

 

This org, this team, and we the fans will continue to pay a heavy price for the stupidity of the front office from ~2012, up until the moment that RH had the "mired in mediocrity" press conference.

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

If he had "no business being in the major leagues," isn't that the textbook definition of being rushed? By the way, I happen to agree that he had no business being here, he NEVER earned his promotion, and it was only the front office's stupidity and collectively inflated ego that made him be brought up in 2016. 

Again, doesn't this kinda point towards being rushed up?

 

This org, this team, and we the fans will continue to pay a heavy price for the stupidity of the front office from ~2012, up until the moment that RH had the "mired in mediocrity" press conference.

You love arguing things that no one said.  Jesus, even Don Cooper said he was rushed in a post just above here. Literally no one has said differently. 

Had to be done. Kid right now is probably a mess. Personally I would have sent him to Double A to start rebuilding things then work him back up if he figured it out. If not? Then you've got another major draft bust by the organization.

57 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

 

Yes, I agree that his numbers as a pro have sucked a horse's ass. But, tlongo81@gmail.com posted the above in the gamethread last night. Dontcha just love "development at the MLB level?"

As noted above, tlongo81@gmail.com shared that in the gamethread, after another poster recommended moving Fulmer [and possibly Giolito] down to Charlotte.

I said he had nothing left to learn in AAA and I stand by that statement. The kid is 24 years old and was drafted in the top 10 three years ago as a "supposed" polished college arm. I don't think a trip down to AAA is gonna do him any good.  I agree with you in that he never should have seen the big leagues in 2016 but it is too late to do anything about that now. 

In my opinion, the Sox are wasting their time trying to make him a starter. They should have just sent him to the bullpen instead of sending him back down. His ceiling is looking more and more like a high leverage reliever with each passing day. 

 

The next question is what to do with Giolito if he continues to suck. If he goes down, then he's out of options and must make the team in 2019 out of spring or the Sox risk losing him for nothing. To be honest, the Eaton trade, which looked like a haul for the Sox in return for a good player for Washington, now looks like  a whole lot of nothing for both sides. Dunning has marginal stuff, Lopez can't keep his stuff from start to start and Giolito is a shell of the prospect he once was. 

Edited May 19, 20187 yr by Jack Parkman

14 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The next question is what to do with Giolito if he continues to suck. If he goes down, then he's out of options and must make the team in 2019 out of spring or the Sox risk losing him for nothing. To be honest, the Eaton trade, which looked like a haul for the Sox in return for a good player for Washington, now looks like  a whole lot of nothing for both sides. Dunning has marginal stuff, Lopez can't keep his stuff from start to start and Giolito is a shell of the prospect he once was. 

Isn't this a common issue with young pitchers? The guy has started 22 MLB games and he is supposed to be a finished product? You a far too pessimistic.