1 hour ago, SCCWS said:

But even teams like the Astros, Red Sox and Yankees who have gotten solid results from their farm system spent in FA. Boston, for example  churns out positional players but they have 1 home grown starting pitcher who is 5th in their rotation.   

But Boston remains a great, great example of the issue. Would you be ok with Boston's performance in Free Agency? Remember the year the White Sox came away with LaRoche, Samardzija and Company? Boston and the White Sox were the 2 teams that supposedly won that offseason. Boston did so by signing Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez to $185 million worth of contracts. They hated those contracts. Frankly, David Price and Rick Porcello in their rotation have been ok to good, but they've struggled to live up to their contracts as well. Boston had some contracts work (JD Martinez), but free agency was a supporting role, not a driving force. 

You can say the same thing about most good teams. The Astros have been more effective than most other teams because of the quality of their front office, but even then they signed a washed up Carlos Beltran to DH in their world series year. The Cubs have Heyward and Edwin Jackson as their FA crap stories. 

Every one of these teams has gotten where they are because they've drafted and developed. They have spent some in free agency, but each time it has been a supporting role. If your team is a 95 win team on its own and it's missing a #3 starter and a right fielder that's ok, you can fill those roles in FA and if a guy busts, you're still a 95 win team. If your team is a 75 win team and you go into free agency thinking you're going to convert them into division champions, you wind up with the 2015/2016 White Sox. 

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But Boston remains a great, great example of the issue. Would you be ok with Boston's performance in Free Agency? Remember the year the White Sox came away with LaRoche, Samardzija and Company? Boston and the White Sox were the 2 teams that supposedly won that offseason. Boston did so by signing Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez to $185 million worth of contracts. They hated those contracts. Frankly, David Price and Rick Porcello in their rotation have been ok to good, but they've struggled to live up to their contracts as well. Boston had some contracts work (JD Martinez), but free agency was a supporting role, not a driving force. 

You can say the same thing about most good teams. The Astros have been more effective than most other teams because of the quality of their front office, but even then they signed a washed up Carlos Beltran to DH in their world series year. The Cubs have Heyward and Edwin Jackson as their FA crap stories. 

Every one of these teams has gotten where they are because they've drafted and developed. They have spent some in free agency, but each time it has been a supporting role. If your team is a 95 win team on its own and it's missing a #3 starter and a right fielder that's ok, you can fill those roles in FA and if a guy busts, you're still a 95 win team. If your team is a 75 win team and you go into free agency thinking you're going to convert them into division champions, you wind up with the 2015/2016 White Sox. 

The reason our FA stung was because our team wasn't a true contender to begin with. Once you get a great young roster, those stings won't hurt as much. One could even argue that Heyward right now would be the 3rd best player on our team. 

Edited June 28, 20196 yr by SonofaRoache

18 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

One could even argue that Heyward right now would be the 3rd best player on our team. 

No they couldn't. 

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Yes, and that’s my salient observation.  If he’s not playing 75-80% of the time, he’s going to go into a terrible funk that will be difficult to extricate himself from at the big league level...his swing is just way too long and has too many moving parts.

He would (will) play against all RHP, which is ~75-80% of the time.  

Edited June 28, 20196 yr by ChiSox59

47 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The reason our FA stung was because our team wasn't a true contender to begin with. Once you get a great young roster, those stings won't hurt as much. One could even argue that Heyward right now would be the 3rd best player on our team. 

Thing is what if we never have a great young roster because of our first rounders not being that good? I'm just saying that at this time we may still be a ton of players short of being a contender. Sox are weak in so many areas. Are Cease and Gio enough for a good starting rotation? Are Eloy, Moncada, Tim, Robert, Madrigal and Burger enough? At least my way we had our chances to win divisions, we just didn't ultimately ever get it done after 05 because of the same front office refusal to add to the core to make sure it won a few more division titles at the minimum.

You guys are trusting our Front Office a lot. I'm not sure we'll ever have a "great young roster."

52 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The reason our FA stung was because our team wasn't a true contender to begin with. Once you get a great young roster, those stings won't hurt as much. One could even argue that Heyward right now would be the 3rd best player on our team. 

Shane Victorino (3 years, $39 million)

Ryan Dempster (2 years, 26.5 million)

Jonny Gomes (2 years, $10 million)

David Ross (2 years, $6.2 million)

Stephen Drew (1 year, $9.5 million)

Mike Napoli (1 year, $5 million)

Koji Uehara (1 year, $4.5 million)

 

The 2013 Red Sox are a great recent example....committing to $100 million roughly of total veteran FA contracts and getting a really significant bang for their buck in terms of production.  It is widely considered one of the most important factors in their World Series title that year.  Of course, the GM largely responsible for this group, Ben Cherington, still eventually lost his job. 

5 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Thing is what if we never have a great young roster because of our first rounders not being that good? I'm just saying that at this time we may still be a ton of players short of being a contender. Sox are weak in so many areas. Are Cease and Gio enough for a good starting rotation? Are Eloy, Moncada, Tim, Robert, Madrigal and Burger enough? At least my way we had our chances to win divisions, we just didn't ultimately ever get it done after 05 because of the same front office refusal to add to the core to make sure it won a few more division titles at the minimum.

You guys are trusting our Front Office a lot. I'm not sure we'll ever have a "great young roster."

I am reserved on Hahn and Kenny as they have failed. However, our core position players should be fine and we can add elite talent there. We will need to acquire two good starters from other organizations as we cannot trust our staff yet. 

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Thing is what if we never have a great young roster because of our first rounders not being that good? I'm just saying that at this time we may still be a ton of players short of being a contender. Sox are weak in so many areas. Are Cease and Gio enough for a good starting rotation? Are Eloy, Moncada, Tim, Robert, Madrigal and Burger enough? At least my way we had our chances to win divisions, we just didn't ultimately ever get it done after 05 because of the same front office refusal to add to the core to make sure it won a few more division titles at the minimum.

You guys are trusting our Front Office a lot. I'm not sure we'll ever have a "great young roster."

Kopech needs to be a TOR starter as well...Burger, it would be a pleasant surprise at this point if he even equaled Matt Davidson’s career numbers.   A lot are skeptical that he’ll even make it to Chicago.

McCann is under control through next year and is a strong candidate for extension compared to Moncada and Robert, whose families are both already set for life.

Finally, one could argue López needs to be a #5 or high leverage reliever...or they’re going to need to spend even more $$$ in free agency.  Or Dunning needs to take his place.

44 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

No they couldn't. 

They sure could. Heyward is having just as good an overall season than everyone except McCann and Moncada. His good defense could make it an argument with Anderson, Abreu, and Eloy for third as it stands right now. 

Edited June 28, 20196 yr by SonofaRoache

3 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

They sure could. Heyward is having just as good an overall season than everyone except McCann and Moncada. His good defense could make it an argument with Anderson, Abreu, and Eloy for third as it stands right now. 

no

3 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

They sure could. Heyward is having just as good an overall season than everyone except McCann and Moncada. His good defense could make it an argument with Anderson, Abreu, and Eloy for third as it stands right now. 

Heyward is worth 1 WAR so far on a 20 million/yr contract.

TA, McCann, and Yo all have higher WAR.

6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

no

Sure, because you say so. 

 

5 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Heyward is worth 1 WAR so far on a 20 million/yr contract.

TA, McCann, and Yo all have higher WAR.

Heyward is about a 1.4 WAR. And who cares about his money? My point is people shit on Heyward because of his contract which is fine. My point is the Cubs aren't devastated as he still provides value to them and they have a great team around him. And I said he wasnt better than McCann or Moncada. I also said an argument could be made for Anderson, not a strong argument, but his good center field defense could be a preference depending on your teams needs. Having a great team makes bad FA contracts a lot easier to stomach, which was the main discussion. 

Edited June 28, 20196 yr by SonofaRoache

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Kopech needs to be a TOR starter as well...Burger, it would be a pleasant surprise at this point if he even equaled Matt Davidson’s career numbers.   A lot are skeptical that he’ll even make it to Chicago.

McCann is under control through next year and is a strong candidate for extension compared to Moncada and Robert, whose families are both already set for life.

Finally, one could argue López needs to be a #5 or high leverage reliever...or they’re going to need to spend even more $$$ in free agency.  Or Dunning needs to take his place.

Burger has a bruised heel now the last I read. You think he'll be playing soon? I'd think he's another serious injury away from about being finished. He has a lot to prove.

Please take the Cubs talk to a Cubs board.  K, thx. 

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Please take the Cubs talk to a Cubs board.  K, thx. 

The Cubs talk is relevant because it shows a point of how teams with good talent aren't devastated by bad contracts. Heyward is one example. So thus, the Sox shouldn't be afraid to sign a big fish who may bust because they have enough talent now on their roster to offset a bad signing. 

Thanks. 

2 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The Cubs talk is relevant because it shows a point of how teams with good talent aren't devastated by bad contracts. Heyward is one example. So thus, the Sox shouldn't be afraid to sign a big fish who may bust because they have enough talent now on their roster to offset a bad signing. 

Thanks. 

Weird things pop into my head sometimes. I was just thinking after reading this ... can you imagine if Robert is a true star as predicted? In a year we would have true stars in Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, and Robert in the everyday lineup together. Add Tatis if we still had him and arguably no team would have had as many true stars in an everyday lineup at one time as the Sox. That's five of baseball's most exciting talents. And one could still envision us having a losing team in that scenario. Weird.

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

Weird things pop into my head sometimes. I was just thinking after reading this ... can you imagine if Robert is a true star as predicted? In a year we would have true stars in Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, and Robert in the everyday lineup together. Add Tatis if we still had him and arguably no team would have had as many true stars in an everyday lineup at one time as the Sox. That's five of baseball's most exciting talents. And one could still envision us having a losing team in that scenario. Weird.

Atlanta would like a word.

7 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Weird things pop into my head sometimes. I was just thinking after reading this ... can you imagine if Robert is a true star as predicted? In a year we would have true stars in Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, and Robert in the everyday lineup together. Add Tatis if we still had him and arguably no team would have had as many true stars in an everyday lineup at one time as the Sox. That's five of baseball's most exciting talents. And one could still envision us having a losing team in that scenario. Weird.

We wouldn't have a losing team if we brought in pitching and a new manager. 

Jim Margalus has a very good story today on the entire Alonso "experience" at his Sox Machine site. Recommended reading. Reading it made me wonder if the Sox have made any changes to the folks in the Pro Scouting Department given their poor record the past several seasons.

Edited June 28, 20196 yr by Lip Man 1

Anyone know why Cease was pulled after pitching just the first inning last night.

I believe there was an extended rain delay. 

Official now

Rather than hating Alonso like so many, we could all just quietly move on with thoughts of improvement. People do not treat Palka much better.

25 minutes ago, pcq said:

Rather than hating Alonso like so many, we could all just quietly move on with thoughts of improvement. People do not treat Palka much better.

I mean yea but then we wouldn't have much of a board

6 hours ago, greg775 said:

Thing is what if we never have a great young roster because of our first rounders not being that good? I'm just saying that at this time we may still be a ton of players short of being a contender. Sox are weak in so many areas. Are Cease and Gio enough for a good starting rotation? Are Eloy, Moncada, Tim, Robert, Madrigal and Burger enough? At least my way we had our chances to win divisions, we just didn't ultimately ever get it done after 05 because of the same front office refusal to add to the core to make sure it won a few more division titles at the minimum.

You guys are trusting our Front Office a lot. I'm not sure we'll ever have a "great young roster."

We will have a "good" young roster next year IMO.