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Clevinger wanted to be White Sox

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34 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’ve already had this debate with ChiSox but I wanted an upgrade at either RF or SP before catcher. Castellanos was my preference for RF and Ryu my preference for SP. The starting rotation was so RH heavy that it seemed like Keuchel and Ryu were the perfect compliments to balance it out. Also would give more time for the young guys like Kopech, Cease, Dunning, etc to develop.

Let's play out Castellanos:

"This bum can't play the field, why did we sign a DH to play RF?"
"He's only hitting .250 - why are we paying a bat only DH for past production?"
"We need left handed power in the lineup, instead we wasted it on a terrible outfielder. Engel is holding his own, meanwhile, Castellanos will prevent us from getting a competent outfielder or properly utilizing Vaughn." 

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  • Hopefully they resign James McCann. I think he needs to be a bigger priority than what people are saying he will actually be. Figure it out, he's a major reason this team is where it is.

  • The majority of players asked discouraged the Clevinger add for several reasons not the least of which is his attitude. The team also contacted several former CLE teammates as well FWIW. 

  • This makes me optimistic for Bauer

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

Let's play out Castellanos:

"This bum can't play the field, why did we sign a DH to play RF?"
"He's only hitting .250 - why are we paying a bat only DH for past production?"
"We need left handed power in the lineup, instead we wasted it on a terrible outfielder. Engel is holding his own, meanwhile, Castellanos will prevent us from getting a competent outfielder or properly utilizing Vaughn." 

This is the third straight season the Sox have started a negative WAR player in RF. Gosh, I’d be happy to only get a 3 WAR starter out of that position instead. Castellanos isn’t perfect by any means but if he was he wouldn’t have signed for less than Grandal either.

edit: oh, he’s also considerably younger than Grandal. By the time he hits free agency again, he will still be younger than Grandal is today.

Edited by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

1 hour ago, mqr said:

Idk if I mentioned it here, but I definitely had conversations where I said there's like a 95% chance a huge chunk of Sox fans hate Grandal even he does exactly what he's done the past few years. 

His positive traits are quiet, and you kinda have to spend too much time thinking about baseball to appreciate some of them, whereas the negative parts are pretty loud (ie low BA, not particularly spectacular power, blocking issues etc.)

His skill set fits with this team, but I don't think they necessarily fit in the 3 hole.  He is a great hitter, for a catcher.  He isn't a great hitter, end of story.  How this team is hitting, and how we expect them to continue to hit, he is probably the what, 6th best hitter on this team?  (Jose, Eloy,Tim, Luis, Yoan...)  He really brings good OBP and good power to the table.  He isn't elite with either.  His numbers are elite, for a catcher.  

48 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’ve already had this debate with ChiSox but I wanted an upgrade at either RF or SP before catcher. Castellanos was my preference for RF and Ryu my preference for SP. The starting rotation was so RH heavy that it seemed like Keuchel and Ryu were the perfect compliments to balance it out. Also would give more time for the young guys like Kopech, Cease, Dunning, etc to develop.

Ozuna has had a huge season, too.

Again, a team full of right handed free swingers that are allergic to walks, half of which suck at defense, isn't really a recipe for sustained success.  Sox did the right thing passing on Castellanos on 4 year deal.  

I would have rolled the dice on Castellanos or Ozuna on a 1 year deal.  But locking ourselves into either one of them long term would have been a mistake.  

That doesn't mean Mazara doesn't suck.  To be clear.  But at least Mazara is cheap and can easily be non-tendered in 60 days, leaving RF wide open for a better fit, though admittedly there really aren't any on the FA market this offseason.  Going to need to come via trade. 

30 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

LOL!  Yasmani Grandal accumulated more fWAR in the 2019 season than Saltalamacchio did in his entire career.  

This is an awful take.  

Grandal has a negative WAR this year, and his "elite" .718 OPS is well behind McCann's 1.1 / .968. 

35 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Alonso finally paying off????

Think it was Kipnis and Clippard.

Grandal is fine... he'll get his power back if that's what most are questioning.  He just needs to be a #6 hitter.

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Grandal has a negative WAR this year, and his "elite" .718 OPS is well behind McCann's 1.1 / .968. 

Wrong again.

Grandal has accumulated 0.6 fWAR this season, good for 3rd in the AL.  Stop using bWAR for catchers - its useless.  

Yes. McCann has been better in the first 35 games.  I am not denying that.  He's also been far worse his entire career.  The two aren't really comparable and we're talking about an extremely small sample size.  I am not bad mouthing James - I like the guy.  But people need to get a grip on Grandal.  

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4 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Grandal has a negative WAR this year, and his "elite" .718 OPS is well behind McCann's 1.1 / .968. 

Only if you use Baseball reference.  Fangraphs has him at 0.6 for the 27 games he has played so far, putting him at about 3.5 for a full season.

5 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Grandal has a negative WAR this year, and his "elite" .718 OPS is well behind McCann's 1.1 / .968. 

To be fair, McCann's also played in 11 less games... 

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Only if you use Baseball reference.  Fangraphs has him at 0.6 for the 27 games he has played so far, putting him at about 3.5 for a full season.

Which I still don’t understand. I’ve been told Grandal’s framing metrics are average so far this season. So why does fangraphs give him such a big bump in WAR but baseball reference doesn’t?

Grandal also works pitchers into heavy counts, regardless of results, Grandal is ALWAYS going to provide more value defensively and unaccounted for stats, rather than with the bat.  That's why you are paying him what you are.

4 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

They didn't just give Grandal a franchise record high contract to put him a time share.

Teams need two catchers and they can make room for McCann if they need to. 

14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Wrong again.

Grandal has accumulated 0.6 fWAR this season, good for 3rd in the AL.  Stop using bWAR for catchers - its useless.  

Yes. McCann has been better in the first 35 games.  I am not denying that.  He's also been far worse his entire career.  The two aren't really comparable and we're talking about an extremely small sample size.  I am not bad mouthing James - I like the guy.  But people need to get a grip on Grandal.  

Using total WAR, not cherry picking aspects of Grandal's overall below replacement level AAAA player season. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandya01.shtml

Yasmani Grandal is "Elite", it is known!

q7693Eb.gif

Edited by South Side Hit Men

Dear God! How does Grandal vs. McCann take over a Clevinger thread? Please make it stop!

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Using total WAR, not cherry picking aspects of Grandal's overall below replacement level AAAA player season. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandya01.shtml

Yasmani Grandal is "Elite", it is known!

q7693Eb.gif

Lol, sorry man, but you have no idea what you're talking about.  

Just now, MeanJoeCrede said:

Dear God! How does Grandal vs. McCann take over a Clevinger thread? Please make it stop!

Lol it needs to consume every thread.

3 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

Dear God! How does Grandal vs. McCann take over a Clevinger thread? Please make it stop!

Said it a couple weeks ago, this will be one of the biggest storylines for the Sox heading into the playoffs at the end of this month. 

“Who will catch Lucas Giolito in Game 1 of the playoffs?”

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Lol, sorry man, but you have no idea what you're talking about.  

The signing was a bad allocation of resources and bad roster construction. The three hitting acquisitions are the three worst players in the lineup. If the Sox were to contend this year, they needed a RF, and sign a LF to put Eloy at DH vs. the Adam Dunn 3.0 and Grandal.

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The signing was a bad allocation of resources and bad roster construction. The three hitting acquisitions are the three worst players in the lineup. If the Sox were to contend this year, they needed a RF, and sign a LF to put Eloy at DH vs. the Adam Dunn 3.0 and Grandal.

There’s no question the front office has to do a better job in free agency moving forward. They get the SSS excuse this season with a few of these guys acquired last winter but this is a pattern at this point.

29 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Which I still don’t understand. I’ve been told Grandal’s framing metrics are average so far this season. So why does fangraphs give him such a big bump in WAR but baseball reference doesn’t?

Because Baseball Reference doesn’t take framing into account.

21 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

Dear God! How does Grandal vs. McCann take over a Clevinger thread? Please make it stop!

Every thread eventually turns into a Grandal vs. McCann argument for some reason.

14 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The signing was a bad allocation of resources and bad roster construction. The three hitting acquisitions are the three worst players in the lineup. If the Sox were to contend this year, they needed a RF, and sign a LF to put Eloy at DH vs. the Adam Dunn 3.0 and Grandal.

No

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Because Baseball Reference doesn’t take framing into account.

I thought Grandal’s framing has been average this season? So why does he get the big bump from -0.1 to 0.6 based on framing?

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