southsider2k5 Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: You have no idea on whether or not they would have sucked if they never tanked. Things could have been much different if a new front office and scouting team was brought in. Again, they tanked a whole freaking season only to draft Nick freaking Madrigal. Lmao. If your contention is that Chris Sale never hurts himself, signs another cheap and long terms extension and that Quintana never goes bad because they stay with the Sox, this probably isn't much of a discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If your contention is that Chris Sale never hurts himself, signs another cheap and long terms extension and that Quintana never goes bad because they stay with the Sox, this probably isn't much of a discussion. I'm saying their were paths for the team to strike lighting in a bottle in 2018 when Sale was still in his prime. I showed a path on how that could work. Crazy things happen in baseball all the time. How many "experts" had the Sox winning it all in 05? You seem content with the results of the tank job which is fine I suppose. Most of the hardcore tankies I talked to said the Sox were on the path to be juggernauts like the Cubs and Houston. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said: Well you might not be able to see it, but I certainly can. I haven't see any AL Pennants or World Series banners yet with the rebuild either. How many did you see before that since Hahn has been the gm? This rebuild hasn't brought us anything we've wanted so far but before it we had exactly 0 playoff appearances under Rick's tenure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: I'm saying their were paths for the team to strike lighting in a bottle in 2018 when Sale was still in his prime. I showed a path on how that could work. Crazy things happen in baseball all the time. How many "experts" had the Sox winning it all in 05? You seem content with the results of the tank job which is fine I suppose. Most of the hardcore tankies I talked to said the Sox were on the path to be juggernauts like the Cubs and Houston. No one is thrilled with the results, but I have still to see a reasonable contention that makes this 2018 a World Series winner other than complete blind luck as your contention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: No one is thrilled with the results, but I have still to see a reasonable contention that makes this 2018 a World Series winner other than complete blind luck as your contention. Blind luck and few savvy trades and free agent signings and the Sox could have had a chance. Instead they rebuilt and became the Minnesota Twins for two seasons and the whipping boy of the AL West in the postseason. Tanking wasn't the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: You're pretending like a new front office wouldn't have improved the rebuilds too. Unfortunately that's not a valid path. The two paths are: Continue to do what they are doing and trust that Rick Hahn can turn a 75 win team with a barren minor league system and a high (for them) payroll into a winner through his skill at acquiring veterans. Trust that Rick Hahn can complete a rebuild. The second option actually got them into the playoffs 1 and a half times! The former led to such wonderful moves as trading away Semien, Bassitt, and some other SS while having James Shields's contract become the worst contract on two different teams. No. The logical move was to fire Hahn and company after 2016 no matter what direction they chose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 5 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: Blind luck and few savvy trades and free agent signings and the Sox could have had a chance. Instead they rebuilt and became the Minnesota Twins for two seasons and the whipping boy of the AL West in the postseason. Tanking wasn't the only way. Blind luck isn't better than taking, and is just as applicable in any other format. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: No. The logical move was to fire Hahn and company after 2016 no matter what direction they chose. No. The logical move was to fire Rick Hahn after 2013. And then again after 2015. And then again at the 2016 trade deadline. 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradMc Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 On 12/6/2022 at 2:43 PM, Snopek said: I wasn't implying that you didn't understand the phrase, I was implying that it's absurd to rely solely on pixie dust and luck over and over. We, well the majority of us anyway, didn't know at the time that this FO could/would fail at a rebuild, so it was time to try something different. Now we know. f To win with lighting in a bottle, you gotta do the Mambo. Reinsdorf did that already. One Mambo per ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 Does anyone here remember what other offers we had for Sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, oldsox said: Does anyone here remember what other offers we had for Sale? Basically the Nationals offer for Eaton was also available for Sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grinder Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 Sale always reminded me of Black Jack McDowell, both tall skinny hard throwing ectomorphs who's arms took a huge beating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Basically the Nationals offer for Eaton was also available for Sale. Boy did that inflated WAR pay off. Sale was so good (production + contract) that it was almost impossible to get full value for him. Cease, who may be the most valuable pitcher in baseball as a trade commodity, is almost in the same place, but he doesn't have those 3 years locked-in at a fixed cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8, 2022 Share Posted December 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, GreenSox said: Boy did that inflated WAR pay off. Sale was so good (production + contract) that it was almost impossible to get full value for him. Cease, who may be the most valuable pitcher in baseball as a trade commodity, is almost in the same place, but he doesn't have those 3 years locked-in at a fixed cost. They're not at fixed cost but it's 3 years of control on an arbitration schedule. In some ways it's actually better than a fixed price - if Cease were to do something horrendously stupid in his offtime and not be able to pitch the last year, or if all his power comes from his moustache and he puts up an ERA of 9 without it, you could actually nontender him in his final year for larger savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgrittenburg Posted December 11, 2022 Share Posted December 11, 2022 On 12/6/2022 at 12:04 PM, Snopek said: Curious what you think the other options were. Like actual options that JR would have signed off on. JERRY WOULD'NT HAVE GIVEN BABE RUTH A LONG TERM CONTRACT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 On 12/8/2022 at 7:50 AM, oldsox said: Does anyone here remember what other offers we had for Sale? Good question. Hahn should have pushed harder for Devers instead of Moncada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: Good question. Hahn should have pushed harder for Devers instead of Moncada. He couyld have easily gotten Devers instead of Moncada. The "no" was for Devers as the 3rd piece. No one would have picked Devers > Moncada straight up at the time the trade happened 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 26 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: He couyld have easily gotten Devers instead of Moncada. The "no" was for Devers as the 3rd piece. No one would have picked Devers > Moncada straight up at the time the trade happened It is incredibly easy to show up 6 years later and say differently, but literally no one said this on the day of the trade. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: It is incredibly easy to show up 6 years later and say differently, but literally no one said this on the day of the trade. Sure. However, it is now six years later and the same front office that made the Sale trade is still around. There wer also warning signs with Moncada ( striking out like 70% of the time in his first cup of coffee and reports of terrible nutrition habits ( eating a box of twinkies a day). There is a reason why Boston was willing to trade Moncada and didn't declare him untouchable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) Boston was smart dumping Moncada off instead of including Devers. Edited December 12, 2022 by Soxfest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: Sure. However, it is now six years later and the same front office that made the Sale trade is still around. There wer also warning signs with Moncada ( striking out like 70% of the time in his first cup of coffee and reports of terrible nutrition habits ( eating a box of twinkies a day). There is a reason why Boston was willing to trade Moncada and didn't declare him untouchable. Where is your proof that Boston thought that Devers was better than Moncada in 2016? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Where is your proof that Boston thought that Devers was better than Moncada in 2016? https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/how-close-did-red-sox-come-trading-rafael-devers-chris-sale-let-dave-dombrowski-explain Dombrowski is quoted in the article as saying their reports were very smiliar for Benintendi, Devers, and Moncada. The Hahn quotes in that article have aged poorly as well. Still waiting for that first playoff series win yet a WS championship or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, Soxfest said: Boston was smart dumping Moncada off instead of including Devers. Yep. It's actually like they took the time to scout their own guys and project them out. Some organizations put in the work. Others sit on the couch and and eat cheetos and hot pockets all day and wonder why their pants don't fit anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/how-close-did-red-sox-come-trading-rafael-devers-chris-sale-let-dave-dombrowski-explain Dombrowski is quoted in the article as saying their reports were very smiliar for Benintendi, Devers, and Moncada. The Hahn quotes in that article have aged poorly as well. Still waiting for that first playoff series win yet a WS championship or two. Very similar isn't the same as better. Also they said they would have allowed Devers to be the 1st or 2nd piece, so it isn't like the blocked him from being traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 Moncada was the #1 or #2 prospect in baseball and people are butt hurt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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