17 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

Imaginary plane is the only plane this will ever be the case, for sure.

Except 5-7 years ago when the Sox system was generally ranked at or near the top. Other than that, pure fantasy

5 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Except 5-7 years ago when the Sox system was generally ranked at or near the top. Other than that, pure fantasy

That was only due to trading away a couple All Stars.  Not due to good scouting and drafting.

And it turns out those rankings were crap.  That “top” farm system turned into a fourth place team in the worst division in baseball history.

1 minute ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

That was only due to trading away a couple All Stars.  Not due to good scouting and drafting.

And it turns out those rankings were crap.  That “top” farm system turned into a fourth place team in the worst division in baseball history.

Yeah, exactly. This organization isn't ever going to be top tier in system rankings, because of elite drafting/scouting. Not with this regime/ownership.

14 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

That was only due to trading away a couple All Stars.  Not due to good scouting and drafting.

And it turns out those rankings were crap.  That “top” farm system turned into a fourth place team in the worst division in baseball history.

Well yeah, but "due to drafting and scouting" wasn't specified. Only a top system.

And no, those rankings weren't crap, that still formed the core of a 93 win team that was dramatically held back by their manager and GM. They just couldn't do anything to build on it.

Also had a Top farm system in 1999-2001.

The best of all those guys were Buehrle, Garland, Crede and Rowand…but almost all of the pitchers busted, guys like Ginter, Barcelo, Stumm, Wright, Baldwin, Biddle and Myette.

Parque and Snyder fell apart.  Borchard and Rauch became synonymous with bust.  Reed and Morse and Olivo the core of the Garcia deal that became the heart of the rotation with Contreras.

Fogg and Wells had decent careers.  

But the main reason for the 2005 title was trades (Cotts Pods and Everett yet another), FA and waiver pickups (Jenks) and all those KW buy low specials that hit one after another…undoubtedly more those 3 seasons than Hahn in an entire decade.

 

Edited June 23, 20232 yr by caulfield12

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Also had a Top farm system in 1999-2001.

The best of all those guys were Buehrle, Garland, Crede and Rowand…but almost all of the pitchers busted, guys like Ginter, Barcelo, Stumm, Wright, Baldwin, Biddle and Myette.

Parque and Snyder fell apart.  Borchard and Rauch became synonymous with bust.  Reed and Morse and Olivo the core of the Garcia deal that became the heart of the rotation with Contreras.

Fogg and Wells had decent careers.  
 

 

You forgot a few names

27 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

That was only due to trading away a couple All Stars.  Not due to good scouting and drafting.

And it turns out those rankings were crap.  That “top” farm system turned into a fourth place team in the worst division in baseball history.

Well whatever the reason, they were in fact at the top. What that says about the rankings is another thing, but thirsting for return to high ranking while claiming actual past high rankings weren’t valid doesn’t make much sense

Edited June 23, 20232 yr by FourEyesShottenhoffer

Just now, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Well whatever the reason, they were in fact at the top. What that says about the rankings is another thing, but thirsting for return to high ranking while claiming past high rankings weren’t valid in the past doesn’t make much sense

Leave it to the White Sox to have two #1 groups in the past two decades to make the least major league imprint.

That’s not easy to do at all.

It’s a big part of the reason they have come to rely on so many Tier B/C free agents, unfortunately…not even having the ability to sustain the contention window with replacement level players.

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Leave it to the White Sox to have two #1 groups in the past two decades to make the least major league imprint.

That’s not easy to do at all.

It’s a big part of the reason they have come to rely on so many Tier B/C free agents, unfortunately…not even having the ability to sustain the contention window with replacement level players.

That 2005 roster found its core in the 2000s ish top system. You had key cheap pitchers (buehrle, Garland), you had key cheap position players (Rowand, Crede). A top system doesn't mean everyone succeeds, it means you have some guys who are successful and some who aren't, but you have plenty of tools to work with. Some can be used in trades (i.e. picking up Garcia, Thome). Some are decent and that makes them useful because they're cheap, you free up money to be used elsewhere. Some will bust, but overall - the strength of that system translated to the strength of the organization for the next decade. 

Just gonna leave this here

 

1 hour ago, T R U said:

Its actually a horrible example, because the Orioles have done this with the help of an excellent and deep farm system.

The question posed was has anyone turned it around WITHOUT the help of the farm or spending huge FA dollars.

The best example would be the 2024 White Sox winning 90+ games and winning the division as our farm system sucks and we know we wont be spending big in free agency. I think that is what he was looking for.

You're right I did misread the original question. However knowing the question now, it's kind of dumb because there has never been a team with a horrible bottom end farm system and bottom end payroll, who went from really bad to really good. That would be impossible. You can't be at the bottom end of both and have a successful huge wing season.

Your example of the 2024 White Sox is also a bad example. Yes the farm system will probably still be bad, but the Sox payroll will not be anywhere near the bottom in MLB. Even if they don't spend big money in FA, they still are on the books for some big contracts. Plus you can't say that the Sox won't be spend FA money. Everyone assumes and claims Jerry is cheap, but the fact is, the Sox 2023 payroll is 12th highest. The problem was not Jerry spending money, it was Rick Hahn spending the money poorly. 

Btw, your hypothetical example of the Sox wining 90 plus games in 2024, while having a bottom end farm system and not spending big or even reasonable money in FA, will simply never happen. 

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Also had a Top farm system in 1999-2001.

The best of all those guys were Buehrle, Garland, Crede and Rowand…but almost all of the pitchers busted, guys like Ginter, Barcelo, Stumm, Wright, Baldwin, Biddle and Myette.

Parque and Snyder fell apart.  Borchard and Rauch became synonymous with bust.  Reed and Morse and Olivo the core of the Garcia deal that became the heart of the rotation with Contreras.

Fogg and Wells had decent careers.  

But the main reason for the 2005 title was trades (Cotts Pods and Everett yet another), FA and waiver pickups (Jenks) and all those KW buy low specials that hit one after another…undoubtedly more those 3 seasons than Hahn in an entire decade.

 

Still remember when Kenny confronted Rauch for leaving a game early after he was pulled and then cut him. I think he did have some decent to good seasons elsewhere if I recall right.

14 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Still remember when Kenny confronted Rauch for leaving a game early after he was pulled and then cut him. I think he did have some decent to good seasons elsewhere if I recall right.

Twins, mostly.  Almost 100% as a reliever.

I was actually at that game.

 

After the shoulder/labrum problems…he never seemed to have the dominant stuff they claimed when he ascended to #1 status level.  

2 hours ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Except 5-7 years ago when the Sox system was generally ranked at or near the top. Other than that, pure fantasy

You're absolutely right it once was ranked high like 5-7 years ago. However the Sox FO then they took them all up to the major league level. What the good teams like the Rays and Dodgers do, that the Sox didn't do, is keep replacing the talent they took away from the minors. Hahn failed miserably at that aspect and let the farm system fall to a disgraceful and unproductive level. 

7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

You're absolutely right it once was ranked high like 5-7 years ago. However the Sox FO then they took them all up to the major league level. What the good teams like the Rays and Dodgers do, that the Sox didn't do, is keep replacing the talent they took away from the minors. Hahn failed miserably at that aspect and let the farm system fall to a disgraceful and unproductive level. 

No one is disagreeing with this and some of us were warning of this all the way back to 2018, when the minor league system had a really bad year. That doesn't mean the system wasn't super strong in 2017-2018 after the trades. They worked! They set us up well, they just failed in all the steps around it. 

5 hours ago, Big Hurtin said:

Just gonna leave this here

 

Mired.In.Mediocrity

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

No one is disagreeing with this and some of us were warning of this all the way back to 2018, when the minor league system had a really bad year. That doesn't mean the system wasn't super strong in 2017-2018 after the trades. They worked! They set us up well, they just failed in all the steps around it. 

Especially missing are waves of starting pitchers, catchers...still no RF or 2B unless Colas pans out. 

6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Well yeah, but "due to drafting and scouting" wasn't specified. Only a top system.

And no, those rankings weren't crap, that still formed the core of a 93 win team that was dramatically held back by their manager and GM. They just couldn't do anything to build on it.

I wouldn’t consider one season a success story.  More an outlier, while other teams were retooling.