On 1/30/2024 at 2:28 AM, JoeC said:

Exactly.

Thus, unless Varsho becomes an immediate flip candidate, he's a meaningless and useless acquisition... and i doubt a player of that caliber is traded 3 times in a single offseason.

He did become an "almost" immediate flip candidate in 2024 with a 3.1 fWAR...he also has a Gold Glove and 17.9 career war now.

 

And the problem is Cease after his down 2023 was never going to fetch a star quality player, Getz instead going for quantity over quality deal.

Will never know if de Vries was on the table or not.  Ethan Salas would have been a mistake based on his last two years of under performance.

Edited October 26, 2025Oct 26 by caulfield12

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

At that point he had three relatively cheap arbitration years of control...

And we can only say with hindsight that 2024 team was never expected to be at all competitive...either JR, Getz or both were (intentionally or through deliberately blindness) lying to the fans.

But that's why it was "outside the box."

However you slice it, Varsho ended up having considerably more value than the package actually received for Cease.

 

The story today is they always knew how bad it was and just lied to the fans, and too bad for people who believed them.

36 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He did become an "almost" immediate flip candidate in 2024 with a 3.1 fWAR...he also has a Gold Glove and 17.9 career war now.

 

And the problem is Cease after his down 2023 was never going to fetch a star quality player, Getz instead going for quantity over quality deal.

Will never know if de Vries was on the table or not.  Ethan Salas would have been a mistake based on his last two years of under performance.

You realize you’re responding to a post from essentially two years ago, right?

just trying to understand what your point is here.

29 minutes ago, JoeC said:

You realize you’re responding to a post from essentially two years ago, right?

just trying to understand what your point is here.

I'm not responding...I started it.

And Varsho is living up to his talent now/again.

Nobody else agreed that Varsho was even an interesting possibility.

But it's also an interesting snapshot of where the Sox were at that point.

Edited October 26, 2025Oct 26 by caulfield12

11 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

At that point he had three relatively cheap arbitration years of control...

And we can only say with hindsight that 2024 team was never expected to be at all competitive...either JR, Getz or both were (intentionally or through deliberately blindness) lying to the fans.

But that's why it was "outside the box."

However you slice it, Varsho ended up having considerably more value than the package actually received for Cease.

 

Getz being awful at his job isn't a good argument to have him make MORE trades involving guys whose clocks are running out.  Luis Robert is the perfect example of that.

34 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Getz being awful at his job isn't a good argument to have him make MORE trades involving guys whose clocks are running out.  Luis Robert is the perfect example of that.

When's the last time the Sox maximized the value of asset?

(Anderson Vaughn Jimenez Grandal Kopech Moncada Robert Cease Rodon Lopez Lynn Kelly Graveman Bummer Keuchel amount to exactly what strategic value now?)  

Giolito for Quero is pretty much it...and that was due more to desperation on LA's part to make a positive impression on Ohtani heading into FA and has been universally questioned.

Giving a QO to Kimbrel led to Pollock, which then led to Benintendi.

Pretty crazy that Quero and fading Vargas are the "best" moves, and one of them was Hahn, unless you want to believe in Albertus and Jeral Perez.

 

Yes, I just wrote down 15 Sox names because there's never been such a disintegration of talent with next to nothing to show for it in modern baseball history.

Heck, it could even have amounted to 16-17 names with Madrigal and Burger added.

 

38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

When's the last time the Sox maximized the value of asset?

(Anderson Vaughn Jimenez Grandal Kopech Moncada Robert Cease Rodon Lopez Lynn Kelly Graveman Bummer Keuchel amount to exactly what strategic value now?)  

Giolito for Quero is pretty much it...and that was due more to desperation on LA's part to make a positive impression on Ohtani heading into FA and has been universally questioned.

Giving a QO to Kimbrel led to Pollock, which then led to Benintendi.

Pretty crazy that Quero and fading Vargas are the "best" moves, and one of them was Hahn, unless you want to believe in Albertus and Jeral Perez.

 

Yes, I just wrote down 15 Sox names because there's never been such a disintegration of talent with next to nothing to show for it in modern baseball history.

Heck, it could even have amounted to 16-17 names with Madrigal and Burger added.

 

That's a really long post to say "You were right", and honestly I skipped most of it, but I appreciate it.

19 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

He did become an "almost" immediate flip candidate in 2024 with a 3.1 fWAR...he also has a Gold Glove and 17.9 career war now.

 

And the problem is Cease after his down 2023 was never going to fetch a star quality player, Getz instead going for quantity over quality deal.

Will never know if de Vries was on the table or not.  Ethan Salas would have been a mistake based on his last two years of under performance.

This is why people that JUST look at WAR are wildly annoying. .214 batting average with a .700 OPS in 2023.  Despite his power hot streak in a limited sample size this year, that’s what Varsho is. He’s a glove 1st OF’er that is a liability in the lineup. He has never, nor will ever, have more value than Cease. His defense would have resulted in almost 0 for the Sox and the prospect package in flipping him would not have been better…regardless of what you think of the result. 

Cease was 4th in cy young voting in 2024.  Varsho has been fine for the Blue Jays but come on now, bumping this because of a WS homer like “I WAS RIGHT” is silly. 

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

This is why people that JUST look at WAR are wildly annoying. .214 batting average with a .700 OPS in 2023.  Despite his power hot streak in a limited sample size this year, that’s what Varsho is. He’s a glove 1st OF’er that is a liability in the lineup. He has never, nor will ever, have more value than Cease. His defense would have resulted in almost 0 for the Sox and the prospect package in flipping him would not have been better…regardless of what you think of the result. 

Yeah, especially when you factor in that he’d be moving to a corner spot most likely if he were here.

24 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Yeah, especially when you factor in that he’d be moving to a corner spot most likely if he were here.

His numbers struck me as a more consistent Michael A. Taylor. 

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Cease was 4th in cy young voting in 2024.  Varsho has been fine for the Blue Jays but come on now, bumping this because of a WS homer like “I WAS RIGHT” is silly. 

And the fact that Varsho was never even moved after this thread was created.  Regardless, Cease should have always been moved for prospects, not a 27 year old corner outfielder.  The problem is that Getz chose the wrong prospects.

Edited October 27, 2025Oct 27 by WhiteSox2023

8 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Yeah, especially when you factor in that he’d be moving to a corner spot most likely if he were here.

Maybe if Getz did his JOB and actually managed to trade Robert...there would be a spot.

10 hours ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

This is why people that JUST look at WAR are wildly annoying. .214 batting average with a .700 OPS in 2023.  Despite his power hot streak in a limited sample size this year, that’s what Varsho is. He’s a glove 1st OF’er that is a liability in the lineup. He has never, nor will ever, have more value than Cease. His defense would have resulted in almost 0 for the Sox and the prospect package in flipping him would not have been better…regardless of what you think of the result. 

So you would prefer I give you an old fashioned scouting report with 40s, 50's and 60s?  Are you Grady Fuson from Moneyball or something?

Gold Glove level defense has X amount of value, especially up the middle of the diamond.

Maybe just not to the White Sox based on their level of play the last three seasons.

Defensive scores also take into consideration arm talent and simply discounting GRF because it's not as tricky or expensive as Boston or Detroit doesn't make it unimportant.

That was readily apparent in 2024 when Fletcher attempted to play there.

9 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Cease was 4th in cy young voting in 2024.  Varsho has been fine for the Blue Jays but come on now, bumping this because of a WS homer like “I WAS RIGHT” is silly. 

Yes because we have so many players in the 2.5-3.25 fWAR range.

Well, really just two.

C.Montgomery and Kyle Teel.

And maybe Braden eventually.

 

Apparently 4.8 fWARs (2022) are now to be totally discounted as well.

So I'm going to just copy and paste the FutureIsNear's dismissal of fWAR for any CF SS 2B C.

Of course he dutifully cited the traditional Greg-like stat of batting average to augment his argument.

Maybe we should simply sign Luis Arraez...and forget that he has to actually play in the field somewhere when not DHing.

 

Edited October 27, 2025Oct 27 by caulfield12

I proposed trading cease for Betts before 2020 and re-signing him (which wouldn't have happened with Jerry, but I was right he was open to signing a deal before free agency).

We'd have won world series in 2020 and 2021, and possibly won every world series since.

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I proposed trading cease for Betts before 2020 and re-signing him (which wouldn't have happened with Jerry, but I was right he was open to signing a deal before free agency).

We'd have won world series in 2020 and 2021, and possibly won every world series since.

Sure, if they also had Machado OR Harper...

This is why we're currently looking at a 5 1/2 to 6 year rebuild.

Bit surely we could have scrounged up the equivalent of Alex Verdugo somehow.

On 10/27/2025 at 3:11 AM, caulfield12 said:

So you would prefer I give you an old fashioned scouting report with 40s, 50's and 60s?  Are you Grady Fuson from Moneyball or something?

Gold Glove level defense has X amount of value, especially up the middle of the diamond.

Maybe just not to the White Sox based on their level of play the last three seasons.

Defensive scores also take into consideration arm talent and simply discounting GRF because it's not as tricky or expensive as Boston or Detroit doesn't make it unimportant.

That was readily apparent in 2024 when Fletcher attempted to play there.

No, I’d simply like you to show me a stat that shows Varsho has any value as a hitter. 
 

But if makes you feel better to cherry pick the 1 stat that overvalues defense and gives validity to your nonsensical argue…you do you man. 

On 10/27/2025 at 12:04 AM, caulfield12 said:

Maybe if Getz did his JOB and actually managed to trade Robert...there would be a spot.

we get so accustomed to this solves everything and ignores the root of the problem plus it's the only thing we've got to keep interest

On 10/27/2025 at 2:04 AM, caulfield12 said:

Maybe if Getz did his JOB and actually managed to trade Robert...there would be a spot.

So you think it would make sense to trade a guy like Robert when you're trading for a guy like Varsho?