6 minutes ago, Falstaff said:

Can't blame West Eddy for that, Getz has been on a roll in 2026.

Oh I don't. Me and @WestEddy were mostly on the same page about Getz. That's why a certain mod just called us the Getz Twins. He'll verify that.

5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Identifying a will to improve ? Vargas just got quoted as saying he was close to quitting. I think the Sox built him up, showed they believed in him and he responded to that. Everything about the new regime is positive attitude and co-operative working with each other and the players using every new way they have, be it bio-metrics or caring coercion . That is something they do every day with every player. It doesn't stop.

I don't see too many Sox players using the torpedo bat. That was a specific suggestion to Colson Montgomery based on something in his point of contact on a normal bat that they could get better results because there was more barrel in that spot on a torpedo bat or something close to that explanation.

I don't even see how you can put percentages on it. 1 change can turn a player from a career minor leaguer to a 10 year veteran. No telling how many busts could've been helped with the right kind of development from a whole organization all using the same methods from top to bottom. Just giving a guy the runway sometimes is extremely helpful. I don't know what got Mead going this year. Maybe it would've happened with the Sox but the infield was where they needed the least help so they dealt him when they could after doing what they could. Maybe it was just time adjusting to the level of pitching.

I know you and some others are committed to giving the majority of player growth and improvement credit to men in suits, but most players get better on the back of their own efforts, commitments and dedication. Organizations can nurture that to an extent, but unless you think the Dodgers somehow didn't know how to develop Vargas but the Sox had the magic, I think we can move past this silly idea. The one thing the Sox could afford to give Vargas that the Dodgers couldn't was time.

Guys who are close to quitting don't dedicate themselves to the degrees Vargas has. Vargas deserves the credit for his transformation and for his commitment to getting stronger.

Edited 3 hours ago3 hr by Look at Ray Ray Run

31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He liked Getz too much. Luckily I avoided a suspension for that crime. Although I was more along the lines of give the guy a chance at first because I wasn't sure he was part of the problem just because he worked there. Guilt by association didn't fly with me nor did any perceived job performance since we had no idea as fans how many real contributions to the suckage he made.

As he went on I thought he was hiring the right personnel and saw a real effort to improve the foundation and wasn't too concerned about how 2024 went. Rock bottom sometimes has to happen . I don't think he contributed all that much to that wreckage . That was more a product of the previous regime and he had nothing to work with that year and used what little budget he had on the underbelly of the foundation.

I haven't reread if I said very much in this thread, probably that the return seemed light like St. Louis should've contributed something to the Sox.

I wouldn't say I "liked" Getz as much as I just wanted some discussion of what he was doing. Every move had to suck.

I believe my take was that the trade seemed a prospect light. I think it was a bit of a shock what the league thought of Fedde and Kopech. But no, it had to be that Getz was stupid and didn't know player values. Vargas was a top 40 prospect. There was value. As late as this spring training, some were still calling him a glorified bench bat. That's insane.

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

2019

Was Kenny Williams still hanging around in the background in 2019? I always felt Rick Hahn was encumbered by Kenny.

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh I don't. Me and @WestEddy were mostly on the same page about Getz. That's why a certain mod just called us the Getz Twins. He'll verify that.

Yeah, and again, it wasn't really about 'liking' Getz. I wanted to watch it and figure out how he worked. Understanding that there had to be reasoning behind moves meant that I wanted to put parts of his anatomy in my mouth.

Looking up something else, I stumbled upon this list I made at this time:

traded Cristian Mena for Dominic Fletcher
Traded Matt Thompson for Bailey Horn
Added Josimar Cousin to 40-man, released Luis Patiño
Signed Tim Hill, released Declan Cronin
signed John Brebbia, released Romy Gonzalez
signed Clevinger, released Jose Rodriguez
activated Grossman, traded Alex Speas
activated Rafael Ortega, released Bailey Horn
traded Luis Rodriguez for Corey Julks
selected Chuckie Robinson, released Duke Ellis

Romy Gonzalez is useful for Boston. Luis Rodriguez has hit a bit of a speed bump in high-A for Houston. Every one of these moves was roundly decried as direct evidence that Chris Getz was a horrible GM.

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I wouldn't say I "liked" Getz as much as I just wanted some discussion of what he was doing. Every move had to suck.

I believe my take was that the trade seemed a prospect light. I think it was a bit of a shock what the league thought of Fedde and Kopech. But no, it had to be that Getz was stupid and didn't know player values. Vargas was a top 40 prospect. There was value. As late as this spring training, some were still calling him a glorified bench bat. That's insane.

I was getting ready to respond to this and disagree, but then reread you said "this spring training."

Coming into the year, prior to spring, him being considered a bench bat made a ton of sense. He was worth 1.3 fWAR over a full season as a starter.

When I saw his swing speeds were up 3 MPH in spring, I definitely changed my perspective on his possible outcomes though. Don't think some realize how much of an increase that was and how significant it was to expected outcomes. So I agree, if you still thought he had no shot with the spring data coming out, then you were hating on Vargas too much.

6 minutes ago, Falstaff said:

Was Kenny Williams still hanging around in the background in 2019? I always felt Rick Hahn was encumbered by Kenny.

Hahn was always alluding to some sort of "process" that imo likely involved both JR and KW meddling in decisions the GM should be making with input from below, not above. That said, I said it over and over: if Hahn didn't like his working environment he was free to resign at any time. But he liked those JR checks.

18 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I know you and some others are committed to giving the majority of player growth and improvement credit to men in suits, but most players get better on the back of their own efforts, commitments and dedication. Organizations can nurture that to an extent, but unless you think the Dodgers somehow didn't know how to develop Vargas but the Sox had the magic, I think we can move past this silly idea. The one thing the Sox could afford to give Vargas that the Dodgers couldn't was time.

Guys who are close to quitting don't dedicate themselves to the degrees Vargas has. Vargas deserves the credit for his transformation and for his commitment to getting stronger.

I think making up arguments that nobody else is making in order to "win" is called a strawman. We all know that athletes are the ones who put in the work to get better. That notion didn't need to be dispelled.

I would imagine everybody here also understands that the White Sox had the at-bats at the big league level to spare for Vargas to finish developing. The Dodgers didn't. He was out of options in 2025. Getz also upgraded the White Sox' capabilities and resources for Vargas to work in. I do believe the Sox instructed Vargas to put on weight, lower his hands and swing harder. You'll need to explain to us why Vargas didn't figure that out and just do it on his own so that he could stick in Los Angeles.

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I think making up arguments that nobody else is making in order to "win" is called a strawman. We all know that athletes are the ones who put in the work to get better. That notion didn't need to be dispelled.

I would imagine everybody here also understands that the White Sox had the at-bats at the big league level to spare for Vargas to finish developing. The Dodgers didn't. He was out of options in 2025. Getz also upgraded the White Sox' capabilities and resources for Vargas to work in. I do believe the Sox instructed Vargas to put on weight, lower his hands and swing harder. You'll need to explain to us why Vargas didn't figure that out and just do it on his own so that he could stick in Los Angeles.

The Sox told Vargas to "swing harder" is pretty funny.

I am happy to theorize as to why some players are typically resistant to big change though. It's hard to get players off of what got them to MLB. It's been working for them their entire life. Some players will never move off of it. Others will take a wait and see approach, and adjust when they feel they are tapped out and limited. I think the latter was Vargas.

He got through two full seasons of games roughly at the end of last year and looked up and saw himself as a below average player but likely felt more of a belief that he, at least, belonged here. So he was confident in his approach and felt better with his swing, but didn't feel like those two things were going to get him where he wanted to be. So he put on weight and busted his ass to get stronger to add power and authority to a good profile.

No one ever has to tell you to swing harder. It's like telling a pitcher to throw harder.

4 hours ago, chitown87 said:

Believe Hahn did

Shows how meaningless that award is.

1 hour ago, Falstaff said:

Was Kenny Williams still hanging around in the background in 2019? I always felt Rick Hahn was encumbered by Kenny.

I think KW was doing this until the day they were both fired. Didn't he get involved and overruled Hahn to get the Jake Burger trade done right before they both got the boot? And I'm not saying that to defend the overall failure of Rick Hahn, but it looked to me like Kenny was throwing his weight around right up to the bitter end.

15 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

I think KW was doing this until the day they were both fired. Didn't he get involved and overruled Hahn to get the Jake Burger trade done right before they both got the boot? And I'm not saying that to defend the overall failure of Rick Hahn, but it looked to me like Kenny was throwing his weight around right up to the bitter end.

Remember Kenny famous quote where he said the first person JR calls is him not Rick Hahn on Sox matters.

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, and again, it wasn't really about 'liking' Getz. I wanted to watch it and figure out how he worked. Understanding that there had to be reasoning behind moves meant that I wanted to put parts of his anatomy in my mouth.

Looking up something else, I stumbled upon this list I made at this time:

traded Cristian Mena for Dominic Fletcher
Traded Matt Thompson for Bailey Horn
Added Josimar Cousin to 40-man, released Luis Patiño
Signed Tim Hill, released Declan Cronin
signed John Brebbia, released Romy Gonzalez
signed Clevinger, released Jose Rodriguez
activated Grossman, traded Alex Speas
activated Rafael Ortega, released Bailey Horn
traded Luis Rodriguez for Corey Julks
selected Chuckie Robinson, released Duke Ellis

Romy Gonzalez is useful for Boston. Luis Rodriguez has hit a bit of a speed bump in high-A for Houston. Every one of these moves was roundly decried as direct evidence that Chris Getz was a horrible GM.

Right the comment I made about liking Getz too much was the perspective from yours and mine critics. I just thought he had to be given a chance instead of automatically hating him or accusing him of incompetence based on his position in the previous regime and his early work as a GM.

And I was with you regarding the early nothing trades or who you were dumping and keeping got blown way out of proportion for what was normal roster churn while you try to trim the fat and work on your team philosophy and build the infrastructure. I didn't have the stamina to fight the fight on all of them. Once in a while I'd say they are nothing trades and its a waste of time to spend much energy talking about them. I preferred to talk about the direction I saw him moving which I figured would lead to better results. In the meantime it was just try to be patient on the main trades and draft picks.

2024 hardly has any surviving players. 2025 the core position players started to arrive. 2026 was supposed to be another year of improvement but we'd deal with some regression and some unexpected arrivals and improvements . It was supposed to be a year that some of the pitching would advance to the MLB. Hasn't been much of that .

If you were positive you thought the improvements would outweigh the regressions and quite a few including me used the pythag number of wins from 2025 that was 70 instead of the actual win total of 61 to project the number of wins for 2026 . I figured a 15 game improvement was logical, just a little less than the 19 game improvement from 2025 . I realize a lot went right in 2025 and there was nowhere to go but up, so I didn't want to get too carried away in my 2026 prediction . So often you can't say who will increase or decrease production but it did seem like the player development side was starting to work but it was just the 1st year seeing it in action. Would it hold up ? So far so good with 12 more rookie faces and 2 of them (both 26) and acquired in the off season making the All Star team. Another in Antonacci playing like he's been in the majors 5 years. All Rookie OF now and not nearly as bad as some suspected it would be.

Even after regression from Shane Smith and Quero and season ending injuries to Vasil and Baldwin and a 3 month injury to Teel they have exceeded all but the most optimistic viewpoints to this point in the season.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I am happy to theorize as to why some players are typically resistant to big change though. It's hard to get players off of what got them to MLB. It's been working for them their entire life. Some players will never move off of it. Others will take a wait and see approach, and adjust when they feel they are tapped out and limited. I think the latter was Vargas.

He got through two full seasons of games roughly at the end of last year and looked up and saw himself as a below average player but likely felt more of a belief that he, at least, belonged here. So he was confident in his approach and felt better with his swing, but didn't feel like those two things were going to get him where he wanted to be. So he put on weight and busted his ass to get stronger to add power and authority to a good profile.

No one ever has to tell you to swing harder. It's like telling a pitcher to throw harder.

You're also talking about a player whose father was a legendary beisbol hero/Olympic champion in Cuba...survived the trying defection process, was a #36 prospect in the entire game with nearly a 900 milb ops coming up in one of the best if not the best organization...his faith and belief in his eventual success is going to be a lot higher than someone like Jared Kelenic or Nick Madrigal.

And it's not like they have a miracle fix for everyone...or they would now have Curtis Mead now at DH instead of Benintendi, at least if they were a typical large market team stuck with a sunk cost contract like that.

And some players just need a fresh start with a new organization, like Andrew Vaughn last season.

48 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Right the comment I made about liking Getz too much was the perspective from yours and mine critics. I just thought he had to be given a chance instead of automatically hating him or accusing him of incompetence based on his position in the previous regime and his early work as a GM.

And I was with you regarding the early nothing trades or who you were dumping and keeping got blown way out of proportion for what was normal roster churn while you try to trim the fat and work on your team philosophy and build the infrastructure. I didn't have the stamina to fight the fight on all of them. Once in a while I'd say they are nothing trades and its a waste of time to spend much energy talking about them. I preferred to talk about the direction I saw him moving which I figured would lead to better results. In the meantime it was just try to be patient on the main trades and draft picks.

2024 hardly has any surviving players. 2025 the core position players started to arrive. 2026 was supposed to be another year of improvement but we'd deal with some regression and some unexpected arrivals and improvements . It was supposed to be a year that some of the pitching would advance to the MLB. Hasn't been much of that .

If you were positive you thought the improvements would outweigh the regressions and quite a few including me used the pythag number of wins from 2025 that was 70 instead of the actual win total of 61 to project the number of wins for 2026 . I figured a 15 game improvement was logical, just a little less than the 19 game improvement from 2025 . I realize a lot went right in 2025 and there was nowhere to go but up, so I didn't want to get too carried away in my 2026 prediction . So often you can't say who will increase or decrease production but it did seem like the player development side was starting to work but it was just the 1st year seeing it in action. Would it hold up ? So far so good with 12 more rookie faces and 2 of them (both 26) and acquired in the off season making the All Star team. Another in Antonacci playing like he's been in the majors 5 years. All Rookie OF now and not nearly as bad as some suspected it would be.

Even after regression from Shane Smith and Quero and season ending injuries to Vasil and Baldwin and a 3 month injury to Teel they have exceeded all but the most optimistic viewpoints to this point in the season.

They played at a 70-win clip, I believe, from July 1 on, last year. I thought that was the baseline, and they'd add 5+ wins to it.