Offense non-development...

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, Quin said:

With the new budget, they can't afford Beggar's anymore.

Apparently, beggars can’t be choosers.  Maybe once Getz trades for more cash considerations, the Sox can bring them back.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Quin said:

With the new budget, they can't afford Beggar's anymore.

Times are tough all over.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

22 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

They lay it on thick. Like Buddy's pizza.

You yourself said there's only 2 left so seems to me there's a lot more thickness on your side of the fence. Hell there's one of your bunch who is non stop s%*# posting.

Maybe you'd prefer the Woe is Us poor White Sox fans pity party to be unanimous so we could all  hold hands and sing Kumbaya ?

Edited Monday at 09:14 PM by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And here is the same Chris Getz story from 2020.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/1566148/2020/01/28/what-the-white-soxs-next-stage-of-player-development-looks-like/

That story's a lot less detailed. And then COVID happened a month later. 

[WhiteSox2023]

17 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

That story's a lot less detailed. And then COVID happened a month later. 

COVID is over now and everything is put into place.  So what is Getz’s new timeline for the rebuild now?  More specially, in what year/season can we expect to see a winning Sox team?

Edited Monday at 09:17 PM by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

That story's a lot less detailed. And then COVID happened a month later. 

Cool.  You eat up the fluff pieces, I will wait for results.

[caulfield12]

Getz buys himself at least two more years on the job simply by not signing anyone for more than $5 million in FA after Fedde...looking back, it's almost amazing nearly $15 million was authorized by JR for a pitcher coming over from Korea, where they have an almost non existent scouting imprint.

[WestEddy]

19 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

COVID is over now and everything is put into place.  So what is Getz’s new timeline for the rebuild now?  More specially, in what year/season can we expect to see a winning Sox team?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The guy contrasted a very detailed article about some areas of improvement being pursued with an actual fluff piece about development assignments. Big difference. The article was posted about a month before the entire minor league season was wiped out. 

Why don't you call the White Sox offices, ask to speak to an assistant GM, and ask them that question. Let us know what you find out. 

I once called to ask some questions about the "white flag trade", and Dan Evans picked up the phone and talked to me for about 20 minutes. 

Edited Monday at 09:28 PM by WestEddy

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The guy contrasted a very detailed article about some areas of improvement being pursued with an actual fluff piece about development assignments. Big difference. The article was posted about a month before the entire minor league season was wiped out. 

Why don't you call the White Sox offices, ask to speak to an assistant GM, and ask them that question. Let us know what you find out. 

I once called to ask some questions about the "white flag trade", and Dan Evans picked up the phone and talked to me for about 20 minutes. 

You don’t know what I am getting at?  What did I say that was confusing?  I thought my question was very direct and to the point.

Hahn started his rebuild in December 2016 with the Chris Sale trade.  He then went on to have three losing seasons in 2017, 2018, and 2019, even though he still managed to win 62 to 72 games without setting the loss record.  The Sox then made the postseason in 2020 and 2021.  So one could say his rebuild took three years until he finally built a winning team.

How long are we expecting Getz to be in “rebuild mode” and when can we expect to see his first winning team?

Edited Monday at 09:38 PM by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You don’t know what I am talking about?  What did I say that was confusing?

Hahn started his rebuild in December 2016 with the Chris Sale trade.  He then went on to have three losing seasons in 2017, 2018, and 2019, even though he still managed to win 62 to 72 games without setting the loss record.  The Sox then made the postseason in 2020 and 2021.  So one could say his rebuild took three years until he finally built a winning team.

How long are we expecting Getz to be in “rebuild mode” and when can we expect to see his first winning team?

Sounds like you answered your own question. What is it that you're confused about?

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Over the 15 years or so, how many players have come here and gotten worse? Certainly that number is higher than the players that have come here and gotten better. 

Some of that of course has to do with age, but we've seen it far too often with the White Sox. Some random guys that come to mind:

-Adam Dunn

-Jeff Samardzija

-Adam LaRoche 

-Todd Frazier

-James Shields

-Derek Holland

-Ceasar Hernandez

-AJ Pollock

I could go on, but that took me about 3 minutes to think about. And it absolutely has to do with how these guys are prepared, coached, what they are doing that other teams aren't. And sure, there have been success stories too. But certainly not as many. 

As I recall Todd Frazier was pretty good. 

[WestEddy]

22 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

As I recall Todd Frazier was pretty good. 

James McCann realized a rebirth here, and Grandal had one good year out of four. That's the problem with free agents. They're usually in their late 20's, and you're paying top dollar for some real clunkers in there. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I just think it's a little over the top to focus on a single data point or a few when the overwhelming evidence is that Getz is not good at his job. Maybe he'll improve, maybe he won't, but at this point in time I think it's a STRETCH STRETCH GET ON BACK THERE to say the org is pointed in the right direction overall.

I guess I look at and see a lot of data points for good and I see a lot of the bad ones too. A lot of them are just minor things that will be forgotten about in time as nothing burgers but molehills made into mountains now.

I think the difference is I do not profess to know very much. I repeat what I see and hear and give links to those things. My opinions weren't formed because of one horrible season or even 3 in a row. They were formed because Reinsdorf has been the owner so long and I've witnessed every year of his ownership.

The reality is Getz was not the best hire in the world because it was JR doing the hiring. JR hired LaRussa. JR let the teams infrastructure disintegrate or just didn't believe in development of youth and keeping up with the latest tech and modern thinking.

I see a lot of small things going right. I can see some immediate results with defense and defensive positioning. That may be a McKinven influence. It's all early he was just hired along with the new hitting guy from the O's. The new manager is way better at least optically than old manager.

Bannister is an amazing guy and one of the sharpest pitching minds out there. They've come a long way since Don Cooper.

New guy handling international and building a new complex in the Dominican. Hitters get to see what the new Trajekt pitching machine is all about because it can simulate very accurately how an upcoming pitcher pitches while using softer balls so hitters aren't injuring themselves with foul balls off their legs hitting against that machine.

There's been a lot going on that we forget about because it's not staring us in the face every day like players are. And let's face it. Every guy Getz acquired this off season was from the scrap heap. Rule 5 guys are scrap heap guys.

I saw a graphic during the broadcast last game that show some Rule 5 pitchers stats from this year. Sox had the 2 best in Shane Smith and Mike Vasil. I'm not convinced that 9 innings of 0 earned run will hold up over a full season but damn good start.

Shane Smith is looking like the real deal. Again small sample, don't want to get carried away.

Sucks that a lot of young arms are getting TJ surgery but Bannister said nearly 2 out of every 5 arms now need TJ surgery at some point and he thinks it's unavoidable. The game is focused on power. Power pitchers and power hitters. All these pitching labs try to maximize spin and velocity. That's part of modern day pitching and along with that comes arm injuries. Unfortunately that's a price pitchers pay now for  there being so much knowledge out there now that can raise a pitchers developmental floor and ceiling. That's why you see more out of nowhere pitching success stories than you do hitting success stories. A pitcher can just find a new pitch that redefines his whole arsenal like the kick change for Davis Martin or the cutter for Crochet. Shane Smith saw a jump in his velocity also. I can't recall what else Smith's been working on .

Edited Monday at 10:11 PM by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

What's hard to fathom is how Sheets and Maldonado (sure it's early) can suddenly be meaningful contributors on what on paper at least is the best team in baseball for the moment.

Environment/atmosphere?

Self belief?

Big home crowds?  Weather?

Put these guys around 4-5 All Stars and a very solid pitching staff and suddenly they start to perform again...maybe due to lack of pressure or not being under a microscope playing on the worst team in MLB history?

Was it really all Grifol and Boston?

Edited Monday at 10:57 PM by caulfield12

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Sounds like you answered your own question. What is it that you're confused about?

So three years for Getz to field a winning team, but does last year count toward the timeline?  So two more seasons of rebuilding this season and 2026?  Competitive team ready for the 2027 season?

[WhiteSox2023]

39 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What's hard to fathom is how Sheets and Maldonado (sure it's early) can suddenly be meaningful contributors on what on paper at least is the best team in baseball for the moment.

Environment/atmosphere?

Self belief?

Big home crowds?  Weather?

Put these guys around 4-5 All Stars and a very solid pitching staff and suddenly they start to perform again...maybe due to lack of pressure or not being under a microscope playing on the worst team in MLB history?

Was it really all Grifol and Boston?

Maldonado has all of 24 plate appearances.  Sheets has 42.  I would venture to guess you will want both guys DFA’ed once their small sample sizes grow enough.  You are jumping the gun with this post far too early.

Edited Monday at 11:30 PM by WhiteSox2023

[Lip Man 1]

58 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What's hard to fathom is how Sheets and Maldonado (sure it's early) can suddenly be meaningful contributors on what on paper at least is the best team in baseball for the moment.

Environment/atmosphere?

Self belief?

Big home crowds?  Weather?

Put these guys around 4-5 All Stars and a very solid pitching staff and suddenly they start to perform again...maybe due to lack of pressure or not being under a microscope playing on the worst team in MLB history?

Was it really all Grifol and Boston?

There have also been some relief pitchers the past few years who as soon as they joined another team started to perform much better.

I'm absolutely convinced the losing which has permeated every aspect of the dysfunctional organization is a factor. Since 2007 this is one of the worst teams in baseball, mentally that is hard to fight through if you are a player regardless of how much you are getting paid. 

The comments this past week from Lynn, Cease and Crochet just strengthen that impression of mine. 

[kitekrazy]

58 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What's hard to fathom is how Sheets and Maldonado (sure it's early) can suddenly be meaningful contributors on what on paper at least is the best team in baseball for the moment.

Environment/atmosphere?

Self belief?

Big home crowds?  Weather?

Put these guys around 4-5 All Stars and a very solid pitching staff and suddenly they start to perform again...maybe due to lack of pressure or not being under a microscope playing on the worst team in MLB history?

Was it really all Grifol and Boston?

I'd say it's the opposite.  Some teams have guys on their farm that could replace players. This is not so with the Sox.

No one really knows.  So far it seems the Sox organization is baseball purgatory.  I think the name free agents feel that way so this organization is on their blacklist. 

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Maldonado has all of 24 plate appearances.  Sheets has 42.  I would venture to guess you will want both guys DFA’ed once their small sample sizes grow enough.  You are jumping the gun with this post far too early.

Well, he's the backup catcher.  But he didn't have that many hits in a couple of MONTHS for the White Sox last year.

As far as DFA's go, pretty much all of the players rostered from #16-25 fit into this kind of territory, the Connor Joe's (AAA) and Heyward's of the world that are strictly platoon players in their final years, same with Gurriel at 40/41 or whatever age he is now.

This is pretty much the definition of the 2013-2016 White Sox model with "stars and scrubs."   But the big difference is you have more "stars" in play, a very solid bullpen and certainly a bigger payroll, but nothing like what it was two years ago when SD was #2 or #3 starting out the season to the Mets/Dodgers.

[Chick Mercedes]

Damn, what happened to our good swings?

[Chick Mercedes]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Why so angry that people try to be fair. Good things are happening despite that horrific season . There's more than 2 people who recognize that.

Why can't we recognize the good things too ? There's plenty of you around to point out his fault because he has faults and has made mistakes. No ones ever said he's perfect.  He got a lot of quality to join the organization and doing their best to modernize. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Relax , I see you starting "And That's a White Sox Winner"  thread. You aren't all doom and gloom.

 

Pro gaslighting 

[bmags]

3 hours ago, Fielder Jones said:

a sign of data being insurmountable in baseball.. Andrus had that great year with us, but the data never believed any of it, and he couldnt get a contract anywhere

The white Sox signed him (because they are idiots)

[GreenSox]

Astros were so good at finding these players that they drummed-out  a young JD Martinez during the rebuild and it didn't matter.

I agree that the Sox have been way light on finding diamond-in-the rough types.   Hahn actually found a couple of these guys right before he decided to rebuild; I guess he found some c. 2020 but then forgot about them.  All relievers.  Hahn barely used Rule V at all during the rebuild..  He got virtually nothing from secondary trades in  the rebuild or from secondary pieced in major trades.  Nothing on the waiver wire.

Getz may have found 2 keepers in Rule 5.    So far, nothing in secondary trades or as secondary pieces in major trades -to be fair, many secondary pieces have been low minors guys.   He doesn't give himself much of a chance on the waiver wire- he just picks guys who don't have a real hit-tool, most of whom are 30+ anyway.  

[WestEddy]

30 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Astros were so good at finding these players that they drummed-out  a young JD Martinez during the rebuild and it didn't matter.

I agree that the Sox have been way light on finding diamond-in-the rough types.   Hahn actually found a couple of these guys right before he decided to rebuild; I guess he found some c. 2020 but then forgot about them.  All relievers.  Hahn barely used Rule V at all during the rebuild..  He got virtually nothing from secondary trades in  the rebuild or from secondary pieced in major trades.  Nothing on the waiver wire.

Getz may have found 2 keepers in Rule 5.    So far, nothing in secondary trades or as secondary pieces in major trades -to be fair, many secondary pieces have been low minors guys.   He doesn't give himself much of a chance on the waiver wire- he just picks guys who don't have a real hit-tool, most of whom are 30+ anyway.  

Getz has already done better on the secondary trades and Rule 5 than the collected works of Hahn. I believe Hahn grabbed Adrian Nieto, an A-ball catcher, and they really tried to "hide" him on the bench. He couldn't catch Sale. All the bullpen arms acquired for Melky and such, William Bergolla has more prospect than any of Hahn's scraps. 

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Getz has already done better on the secondary trades and Rule 5 than the collected works of Hahn. I believe Hahn grabbed Adrian Nieto, an A-ball catcher, and they really tried to "hide" him on the bench. He couldn't catch Sale. All the bullpen arms acquired for Melky and such, William Bergolla has more prospect than any of Hahn's scraps. 

Once again...comparing Getz to Hahn and Haber, both out of the sport entirely, not exactly a high a high bar to set.